Pin Poppin Out

[jinx2]

I'm having a little trouble with my J-45. Seems the wood inside the bridge is wearing out in the low E hole. This causes the pin to pop out when I tune it up. I'm pretty sure it's the wood wearing out because I tried a new pin to no effect.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? What is the cure? Will Gibson cover this under warranty, It's a '96 limited edition.

 

Thanks:-k

[Thermionik]

Buy some slightly over-sized pins from Bob Colosi.

 

They will hold tight AND improve the tone too.

 

Alternatively - pop the ball end in to the hole, draw it back up until it is correctly seated against the underside of the hole and then insert the pin. The string should NOT be pulled down by the pin, because that means the ball-end will pull up on the pin and pop it out. The pin locates the string only, the ball end on the sound-board takes the tension.....

[drathbun]

Thermionik has it right about the bridge pin not holding the string down. The pin just holds the ball end against the underside of the bridge plate. This is usually a piece of hardwood. After a lot of use the ball ends tear away at the bridge plate until the ball won't stay there anymore and the ball pops out and up against the pin, popping it out. Getting a larger pin might make the pin tighter in the hole but it doesn't solve the problem if the ball ends are not staying locked under the bridge plate. That is where the sound transfer to the top happens. If the ball ends are under the pin they are not transferring to the bridge plate and the top properly. Here is an example of a bridge plate that has been chipped to the point it no longer holds the pins (from www.frets.com).

 

 

You can put a mirror inside your guitar and check the condition of the bridge plate and see if it is deteriorating. One solution is to make a kink in the string so it bends back towards the peg head at the ball end, so it makes it easier for the ball end to catch the bridge plate when you're restringing.

 

This article by Frank Ford details the process.

 

[TommyK]

I'm having a little trouble with my J-45. Seems the wood inside the bridge is wearing out in the low E hole. This causes the pin to pop out when I tune it up. I'm pretty sure it's the wood wearing out because I tried a new pin to no effect.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? What is the cure? Will Gibson cover this under warranty' date=' It's a '96 limited edition.

 

Thanks:-k [/quote']

I used to have this same problem.

 

Most likely your installation technique. Since it's the low E (biggest wire), It could be that the slot in the pin isn't quite large enough to acommodate the string portion above the ball end. When you push the pin home (in your effort to get all 6 soldiers lined up), the double wrapped end of the wire gets wedged between the pin groove and pin hole, thereby causing the pin to push the wire deeper into the body, thus pushing the ball end away from the soundboard (suspended ball) and the string rasps some wood in the process. You've got the pin, likey jambed quite tightly in the pin hole. Then you bring her up to pitch, the string jumps up with enough speed and force to rocket the pin to some dank, dark corner of your room. At the same time the wound wire rasps a bit more spruce out of the hole as it sproings out of the hole.

 

This is increasingly likely to happen if you use medium gauge strings. The Es are usually fat enough that, in order for the head of the pin to line up with the others you really have to put the hurt on the pin. The factory only sizes the holes and slots for Light strings.

 

Solution1: Open up the low E string pin's slot to accomodate the bigger string.

 

Solution 2: Only push the pin in far enough so gravity doesn't allow it to fall out. Make sure you don't push the wire deeper into the hole, thus dislodging the ball.

 

My Yamaha is strung with Medium Elixirs. She has her low E pin's head about 1/8" higher than the other 5. It's been that way since January 2008 and hasn't budged.

 

FYI, For all the others, you should be able to 'gig' the string up and down in the pin slot even after the pin is installed. Puting the 'hurt' on the pins to really jamb them in risks cracking the top and wears out the holes. The strings should not bind. The pins should only be pushed in enough to keep gravity from pulling them out. The pin only keeps the ball from rolling into the hole, nothing more. The E is an exception as this is usually a tight fit. Same with some A strings. Open up the pins' slots if you must... or just let them sit up a bit higher than the pins on the higher strings.

 

Finally, use your inspection mirror (you do have one, don't you?) and flashlight to inspect your work. Make sure you have no suspended balls. I once had a suspended ball on a high e... the little spindly one that, due to inattention on my part, allowed the string to get wedged between the pin and hole, not in the slot. It stayed that way most of a year.

[DonCarlos]

Okay, so to clarify for the dimwitted ones.

 

The ball of the string should be at the bottom the pin and not dangling in the air. But is against the underneath edge of the soundboard hole?

 

I read this thread and the examples given on how to put the string in the hole and the bridge pins. I thought that I was doing something wrong because I could not get the ball to hook into any slot that is in the soundboard and hold itself there without a bridge pin.

 

But now I realize that there isn't a slot for the ball string on the soundboard is there? I had envisioned that there was a slot, like the one that is on the bridge top, except it is in the soundboard. So I took a look with a flashlight and long dental mirror and I'll be darned if the soundboard is just a board with holes in it. No slots, no special plate with slots in it, just 6 round holes. That's why I couldn't just hook the string under there and pull up with no bridge pin holding it. Go figure.

 

Hey I did find a factory inspection paper taped to the inside of the guitar. No bugs though. It's still a new guitar.

 

I do have trouble with that thick e string as mentioned in the preceeding posts, and as I start the tuning up on the string, the bridge pin slowly starts levitating up the hole and then I back off the tension and gently hold the pin down and everything stays. So far I haven't had any pins pop off when playing :- , but man o' man, I sure do not need a pin puller to get them off.

 

It's funny I never became concerned about this stuff until I just purchased a J45; my first Gibson. In the old days I just shove the string in and pushed the pins down (maybe it's my age now, or more likelyy because these things are expensive guitars.

 

I enjoy all the information on this.

 

Thanks.

[TommyK]

A slotted bridge and bridge plate (wood you see on the under side with 6 holes) is optional on most guit tars. Actually, not optional from the factory. Usually a luthier or guit tar tech upgrade, at an additional cost. Check your warranty before doing this.

 

The slotted pin is most likely grabbing the string and pulling the ball away from the bridge plate as you push the pin home. The low E does not have to be shoved as deeply as the rest so they all line up in perfect apple pie order. With Factory strings (lights), the pins went in perfectly lined up. When I went to mediums, the low E was as snug as it could get with the pin about 1/8 - 1/16" higher than the other five. I intended to just tune her up as it was, then later use my dremel to open up the E string pin's slot. I haven't gotten around to it yet and the pin is still where it was when I pushed it in over a year ago. (Those Elixirs are long lasting!).

 

If you push the pin in and suspend the ball away from the sound board, it will move. Tension will pull the ball toward the bridge plate, thereby pulling the pin with it. If it jumps suddenly, the pin will rocket across the room. If slowly, it'll just fall out.

 

As long as the ball is seated against the bridge plate and the pin pushed only snug enought keep gravity from pulling it out, it shouldn't move.

 

Sorry if I re-itterated.

 

And good for you getting an inspection mirror. Every guit tar owner should have one, or two, or three.

[Thermionik]

'ere we go again.....

There is a slot in the pin or a slot in the bridge.

This allows the string to pass through.

The ball-end does NOT sit under the pin end, but under the bridge/soundboard.

The pin merely locates the string.

The bridge takes all the tension. NOT the pin. NO pin should EVER be liftable with the string.

 

[TommyK]

'ere we go again.....

There is a slot in the pin or a slot in the bridge.

This allows the string to pass through.

The ball-end does NOT sit under the pin end' date=' but under the bridge/soundboard.

The pin merely locates the string.

The bridge takes all the tension. [b']NOT[/b] the pin. NO pin should EVER be liftable with the string.

 

 

Exactly. As long as it's properly installed. If the string and windings above the ball, combined with the pin are snug in their hole, with the ball resting firmly against the bridge plate just as your picture shows, you're good to go. If you try to drive the pin deeper to make it line up with the other 5 pins, the string's the windings, wedged against the pin slot will move with the pin, thus disengaging the ball, thus suspending the ball which can and does lead to pins popping out.

 

Once a slotted pin is installed, you should be able to gig the string up and down in the slot. It should be loose. However at the low end E and A string gigging smoothly may not be possible. WHen I went to heavier strings, the low E will not gig as it is firmly wedged between the pin and bridge plate, but with ball not suspended.

[TheLiveSoundGuy]

Not to hijack the thread, but if you have a Buddy Holly J45, I for one, would love to see photos of it!

[Jayla]

On the issue of pins, slotted and unslotted, the way they situate the ball-end of the string in the bridge, and the effet of the ball-end of the string on the bridge plate, see also this recent thread on the subject. I highly recommend taking a look at the two threads linked therein (one from the luthier's forum, one from the agf). IMO the discussion and examples are enlightening.

[DonCarlos]

Good information all. And Jayla, that was an interesting thread you linked.

[drathbun]

PlateMate is a cool fix for worn out bridge plates.

 

[TommyK]

Solid brass eh? Wonder what it would do for tone?

 

You think they ought to offer it in Bone or Tusq?

[DonCarlos]

You know the more you read the more confused you can become, on slotted versus unslotted, and all of the views pro and con make sense. Actually, after reading some of the suggested threads I became convinced that I should seriously consider having the bridge plate slotted. Particularly after looking at the graphic photos of the damages caused by string balls.

 

So, I called one of the better known authorized luthiers in Vegas and spoke to him. He said that in his 30 years he has never slotted a bridge plate. He asked what kind of guitar I had and I answered Gibson and he said "They know how to build and design there guitars and it's better to leave that type of thing alone". I responded that I wanted to do it while my guitar is new, to avoid any future damage.

 

He said "To avoid damage, just take the time to correctly put the string ball and bridge pin in". Now where did I hear that over and over? From the folks here on the forum.

 

Lastly, he added that he has enough clients and had no interest to take my money for unnecessary work. He added that slotted pins have their disadvantages when used incorrectly and said why would anyone want to cut into a Gibson by doing an unneeded modification.

 

So, I will stay with the slotted pins (maybe even get a set of Bob Colosi's). And I think what I will do when restringing, is to take the added time and use my trusty long handled dental mirror to inspect my work. I figure after time I'll become more and more proficient at how to do it correctly. Thanks All.

[G u e s t]

.

.

 

Just string the durned guitar and get on playing it.

And remember - ENJOY it. You worry too much.....

.

[DonCarlos]

LOL. You are so right on both counts. My wife says the same thing "Good Lord, you got a Gibson, stop concerning yourself over this crap and play the guitar".

[Hall]

Jinx:

 

 

If your pin is slotted, you could try just turning it around backwards and see if that helps. It's called,"home remedy".

:o

 

 

Steve

[jinx2]

Not to hijack the thread' date=' but if you have a Buddy Holly J45, I for one, would love to see photos of it!

 

[/quote']

 

I'll post some!

[drathbun]

Solid brass eh? Wonder what it would do for tone?

 

You think they ought to offer it in Bone or Tusq?

 

I think this fix is a good one for a guitar that isn't expensive enough to warrant a bridge plate replacement. I just put one in for a friend who has a 20 year old Yamaha that isn't worth the amount of a bridge plate replacement repair. For $30 it is an easy install and your guitar is functional again. Now a 20 year old Gibson or Martin would be more of a candidate for a bridge plate replacement with a new piece of hardwood.

[TommyK]

PlateMate is a cool fix for worn out bridge plates.

 

 

You know... I think they got plates like that down to the Feed and Seed store in the hardware section.. next to the strap hinges and gate hooks. It's zinc plated steel. Might have to drill it to fit though.. maybe 3/16"?... you think? Double sided tape would hold it in place too, I think. Might be able to do it for a buck eighty-five.

[TommyK]

...And I think what I will do when restringing' date=' is to take the added time and use my trusty [b']long handled dental mirror to inspect my work[/b]. I figure after time I'll become more and more proficient at how to do it correctly. Thanks All.

 

You've learned your lessons well, my young padawan. =P~/

[G u e s t]

.

 

Tommy - 3/16 sounds a tad thin to me, no weight to it.

I used a small granite slab, cut up special, about 1/2" thick.

Polished flat and drilled with a diamond tipped doo-hickey.

 

Man - that guitar sustained a note for a week easy.

Couldn't hear the durned thing at all.....

.....but it sustained for a week, maybe more.

[TommyK]

.

 

Tommy - 3/16 sounds a tad thin to me' date=' no weight to it.

I used a small granite slab, cut up special, about 1/2" thick.

Polished flat and drilled with a diamond tipped doo-hickey.

 

Man - that guitar sustained a note for a week easy.

Couldn't hear the durned thing at all.....

.....but it sustained for a week, maybe more.[/quote']

 

 

Granite Eh????

[DonCarlos]

Tommy K

 

So today I went to Schucks and got a real inspection mirror. $3.95. Better than the dental one, telescoping rod and all. You know it can only lead to trouble when you get a new tool. So I was looking inside the guitar and yes, my string balls are seated correctly but then, I noticed something. I noticed that the bridge plate has a thin cover of ???? Looks like thin wax paper. I noticed that there was a slight tear in one place where I could see the color of the plate's wood.

 

What gives? Why would they put a thin coat of paper or whatever over the bridge plate, when it seems so important to have, wood to string, contact. Hmmm. No other discoveries except a J45 is stamped J45 on the corner of the bridge plate.

 

I may be sending in a team of little people to explore the rest of this guitar body.

[jinx2]

Today I received a Mitchel's PlateMate in the mail. Installation took about 4 minutes. No more pin poppin out! Really nice, fast service from Mitch over at mitchelsplatemate.com