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J45 and Bluegrass?


Working Mans Blue

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Posted

Are these two incompatible? Gonna go to my first bluegrass jam tomorrow. The loudest guitar i have is my j45. The others are my parlor and my lg2. So im gonna take the j45 for sure. But i often hear that they arent suited for that style, that they get drowned out by the banjos and such.

 

Now this is my first bluegrass jam, so maybe it wont be so bad that i get lost in the mix, im mainly going to learn and enjoy good music, just for fun. So i wont be too disappointed if it just doesnt cut it. and i definitley wont be selling this bad boy, just wondering if anyone has any experience with using one in this setting. I do have bluegrass strings on it, maybe that will help?:P

 

may just be an excuse for me to buy a new guitar ;)

Posted

You'll do just fine with you're J45. While not as popular as Martin for Bluegrass, I think the fiddle players enjoy a nice Gibson. Enjoy yourself, and have a good time with that J45! Nuttin' sounds wrong with that guitar [thumbup]

Posted

This is a multifaceted question. I think you should take it and see how it works out.

 

Traditional power bluegrass in some sense was invented around the tonal properties of the Martin D-28 -- and the Gibson flat head Mastertone banjo and F5 mandolin. You can't exactly make the traditional BG sound with a J-45 -- which has its own unique and widely loved sound. A lot of what people call bluegrass nowadays however is not narrowly focused power bluegrass. And a lot of old time fiddle band players prefer the J-45 for the "old time" sound.

 

I just posted on the UMGF on my experience with Gibsons and power bluegrass. Also, I wrote an article for bluegrass unlimited magazine (1997) on jamming which has been republished several hundred times in 10 languages. Maybe that might give you some insight,

 

Best,

 

-Tom

Posted

At the bluegrass jams I attend EVERYTHING gets drowned out by the banjos. I usually bring a Martin D28 Marquis, and I don't think I have heard it yet. People who are in front of it hear it once in a while, I'm told. [rolleyes]

 

Rich

Posted

WMB, that J-45 will be just fine. I've been a rocker all my life, but about seven years ago I joined a bluegrass band. I must say that I've had more enjoyment playing bluegrass than any other time playing guitar! I play my SongBird Deluxe and have had many compliments on the tone and sound of it. (that's coming from the Martin players!) Bluegrass will be a nice surprise for you! Pure acoustic jamming! Some of the "new" bluegrass music is really great music with nice chord progressions and guitar runs. I love it! With the band I play with, I injected some acoustic rock (James Taylor, Eagles, America, John Denver). Sounds great and we're constantly playing. I gig at least once a week. The J-45 will do just fine. Just mic it up a bit and hold on!!!

Posted

A lot of guys in the early days of bluegrass music played Gibson Jumbos, among them Charlie Monore, Carter Stanley, Mac Weisman, & George Shuffleton, so think of yourself in that tradition. Like Tom said, you are not going to get the boom of a 28 but you knew that. A few eyebrows may be raised but pay them no mind.

Posted

Hey, Tom. A guitar geek question for you. In your umgf post, you say it the midrange push of a D28 that makes it defintive for bluegrass. Now, granted, I'm not out there in the field like you, but I always understood it to be about the deep bass and metallic top-- the boom chang. In fact, Martins to my ear have a distinct hi-lo separation, whereas a Gibson slope has rich mids but less pronounced lows and highs. In a band setting, tho I could see where a Gibson's mids might get lost in the wash while a D28s upper mids and top would ring out. Thoughts?

Posted

At the bluegrass jams I attend EVERYTHING gets drowned out by the banjos. I usually bring a Martin D28 Marquis, and I don't think I have heard it yet. People who are in front of it hear it once in a while, I'm told. [rolleyes]

 

Rich

 

 

Ha Ha.

 

Banjos are why the National Steel Guitar was invented, then drummers drove the invention of amps.

 

So if the D28 set turn their noses up at your beautiful J45, go get the amp out of the car and do a Bob Dylan at Newport act. (Pickup needed in guitar, of course, or they will really sneer).

 

 

BluesKing777.

Posted

Hey, Tom. A guitar geek question for you. In your umgf post, you say it the midrange push of a D28 that makes it defintive for bluegrass. Now, granted, I'm not out there in the field like you, but I always understood it to be about the deep bass and metallic top-- boom chang. In fact, Martins to my ear have a distinct hi-lo separation, whereas a Gibson slope has rich mids but less pronounced lows and highs. In a band setting, tho I could see where a Gibson's mids might get lost in the wash while a D28s upper mids and top would ring out. Thoughts?

 

Martins and Gibsons both have distinct tonal properties in high, mids, and lows. Please note I am talking about vintage Martins and Gibsons, and more particularly in this discussion I am talking about D-28s and J-45s. Martin lows are fuller, Gibsons more percussive. The midrange on D-28 has a roaring quality that is wide and full with a lot of sustain -- the J-45 is loud, but less full and blended, rawer and with less sustain. Both have good highs, which is important for lead.

 

Now bluegrass is built upon its rhythm -- that has to be right. It is basically boom-chuck. The boom is primarily the bass fiddle -- good guitar lows are cool, but basically the bass has the low covered. The chuck (the backbeat) is where the Martin roaring midrange fills the gap -- a J-45 cannot do that adequately. (The backbeat also often has either a mandolin chop or a banjo vamp that provides a bit of percussion.) This is all covered in the rhythm section of my jamming article.

 

The point of my post on the UMGF was that we have found (and own) a number of historical Gibsons that can also provide an adequate backbeat roar -- all are rare. They are an AJ, a converted RSRG, and a 43 RW SJ -- all rosewood guitars. Our 35 Jumbo works too, but as I said it has been modified. Our 36 J-35 Trojan and 37 RSSD do not work because of their raw sparse midrange tone is not right for traditional bluegrass -- J-45s have this problem too, but in addition they don't have the power of the mid30s stuff. This rawer midrange is sort of the defining feature of a good old time rhythm guitar, but the backup is not so forward as bluegrass, so arguably there is more freedom to do other things.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

Posted

I wasn't really so worried about having the right tone, I was more worried about being heard.

 

I think if I ever get good enough to wanna be heard I'll get an aj or a guild dread. I really like the sound of those, I hate being a follower. I wouldn't want to be the guy with a martin in a room full of guys with martins

Posted

...and another great video with Sean, his J-45 and sister on fiddle. Great stuff and what a great sounding J-45. Wondering if the strings are the Martin Tony Rice monels.

 

Posted

I wasn't really so worried about having the right tone, I was more worried about being heard.

 

I think if I ever get good enough to wanna be heard I'll get an aj or a guild dread. I really like the sound of those, I hate being a follower. I wouldn't want to be the guy with a martin in a room full of guys with martins

 

I think the J-45 bass "thunk" is cool for bluegrass. Put medium gauge treble strings on or try the new Elixir HD lights, which have a .17 B and a .13 E. It allows you to strum a little harder without breaking up, and you get more volume and shimmer. Little harder to bend if you play a lot of blues, but the extra volume helps if you're not plugged in.

Posted

I prefer the sound of a Gibson guitar for bluegrass. I love the midrange warmth and roundness. That being said, most Gibsons don't seem to be loud enough or have enough cut in a full bluegrass group. My AJ does hold its own pretty well but my SJ gets absolutely buried in the mix.

Posted

Wear a cowboy hat and a long leather duster, don't talk to anyone before pulling the J45 out, and if anyone says anything just say in a grumbly voice "I'm changing things up a bit...problem with that?" Those grassers will be so scared they'll have to hold onto their cousins extra tight that night

Posted

Saw Nickle Creek on CBS this AM. Guitar player was using a J45. They call themselves bluegrass, I guess. There wasnt a banjo or dobro in sight and the J45 did have one of this electric cord thingys coming out of it.....but it was a J45. [thumbup]

 

Rich

Posted

Here's a little Eagles tune with upright bass, mandolin, banjo, and guitars we did a few years back. Hope ya like it!

 

Larry, that is great! Just the sort of thing I'd love to do if I could find some likeminded spirits....

Posted

Larry, that is great! Just the sort of thing I'd love to do if I could find some likeminded spirits....

 

Thanks, LG! I'm not the biggest fan of bluegrass "music", but I love the bluegrass instruments. Ya know what I mean? Anyway, thanks for the compliment!

Posted

Saw Nickle Creek on CBS this AM. Guitar player was using a J45. They call themselves bluegrass, I guess. There wasnt a banjo or dobro in sight and the J45 did have one of this electric cord thingys coming out of it.....but it was a J45. [thumbup]

 

Rich

 

Sean Watkins has used a Baggs iBeam for some time...may have upgraded to a Lyric.

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