Could a customized epi be as good as one gibson?

[capmaster]

Well, when talking about "good" guitars, I think there are some basic properties like weight balance and intonation which are not a matter of taste.

 

All the rest about playability and tone will depend on personal likes and intended purpose. A 12 fret guitar is not inferior compared to a 14 fret or cutaway model, just different. What is of more importance, a board with 24 frets, or a pickup in the 2nd octave position?

 

Even the likes about sustain are varying, in particular when evaluating decay of certain frequencies, or specific overtones of certain notes. The "dull note" or "dead spot" problem is just one point here. Some people like a very smooth, even tone, others may find it clinic, sterile and lifeless.

 

When about Epiphone electrics, I own just one, but this LP 1960 Tribute is a dearly great one. No need for hiding from my Gibsons.

[StRanger7032]

I'll chime in on this one, since I have both a highly upgraded Samick-built Epi G-400 and a highly upgraded Gibson SG Standard. Can an upgraded Epi sound as good as a Gibson? Absolutely, but only the right Epi. The wood and finish on my Epi are far inferior to my Gibson, but the build quality is phenomenal. The Samick Epiphones (or at least mine) are very well built. After upgrading all the wiring and pickups, my Epi sounds better than the Gibson (to me) when comparing the sounds through an amp. The Gibson has the same wiring kit and pots, but different pickups. Unplugged, the Gibson blows away the Epi, with vastly more sustain and "woody" tone. That's where the better wood and nitrocellulose finish really shine. The Epi, when played through an amp, has an incredibly warm, fat tone that the Gibson can't replicate. Pickups? Maybe, but I can say that overall, I definitely was able to build an Epi with a better overall sound than a similar Gibson. Of course, its all my opinion, and the Gibson will retain its value while the Epi will never be worth as much as I've invested in it.

[milod]

I'm utterly convinced that there are a lot of factors involved in a player "bonding" with a given guitar or guitars. But the brand on the peghead ain't one of 'em.

 

"Quality?"

 

I'm guessing someone could have $20,000 worth of materials and have a quality luthier build a guitar, and still not have that instrument "bond" with a given player.

 

Epis are not "crap," at least not most of them. I think that even with Gib/Mar/Fen, an occasional problem will occur; it's probably a bit more likely on a more mass-produced instrument of any type - and mostly because there's not the degree of human observation of wood quality.

 

Frankly I'm convinced that especially with electrics, the current Epi ain't a Gibson, but it's an instrument of value in its own right.

 

Heck, let's face it, an electric guitar is functionally at best a half of the sound transmitted to an audience. The other half to two thirds is the amplifier.

 

The playability, on the other hand, is 100 percent a given instrument and its strings and setup. That is incredibly personal after a certain degree of experience. So... I'd rather have an Epi of a certain "type" set up perfectly for me than a Gibson that ain't. For what it's worth, neither a Gibson nor an Epi LP will be as comfortable to me as a 16-inch body 24 1/2 inch scale hollowbody whether from Gibson or Epi. I'll play the latter far better if properly set up for my personal style, simply because I'm physically and therefore mentally more comfortable with them. When your mind doesn't have to think about your technique, golly whiz, you'll play better.

 

m

[byrds1965]

You know, when one thinks of all the great, influential recordings, by the old

"blues masters," that were played on Kay's, Harmony's, etc., or whatever

they could get hold of, much less afford, one realizes what friggin' spoiled

"cork sniffers," we are! LOL Those guys would have "killed"

to have the kind of choices we have now, even in "budget" guitars!

 

CB

 

 

Well yes and no.

 

Harmony at least was using the same materials, wood, just cheap build and PUs hardware, frets etc.

 

My buddy has a 60s Rocket he just refretted, potted, rewired and kills my Casinos.

 

Had Harrison not found the little Gretsch he could have ended up with a Harmony like Keith and Brain, Dave Davies.........knowing it was a good American guitar and that is all those guys wanted, good American guitars.

 

If you have ever played a Sovereign that does not have the neck dive/collapse or problems with the top from the cheap ladder bracing they are great and would have no problems owning one if I could find one without issues.

 

I have a 60s Gretsch in for a neck pocket collapse, common known problem on their 50s and early 60s guitars that Baldwin and current Fender ownership fixed later on.

 

The budget builders Harmony, Kay back then were using the same wood piles and Nitro the rest of the guys were just cheap construction and components.

 

My buddy met one of the Heritage guys a few years back and he said in the 2000s they had finally just used the last of the wood pile that Gibson had left behind and abandoned when they moved.

 

Premium wood now, is what was common in the 50s through 2000s it was just that then wood.

[milod]

For what it's worth, I have a relatively high-end Harmony from the '50s... baseball neck and all...

 

I'd say construction and materials good, but not anywhere in a Gibson league. The pup I'd put with most non HB. Frets etc... they work well enough although the neck is horridly "fat" and its saving grace is a 24-inch scale. Yes, 24, not 24 3/4.

 

The wood and finish... not up to Gibsons I've seen from that era. Design "overengineered."

 

It's a bit of a different technique. I used it in a country-rock trio in the late '70s for two reasons: I could run up and down the neck fairly easily and with lighter strings, it was easy to play and get a number of different sounds from it. And... at the time since it was only 25 years old or so, I figured if the -30F winter weather damaged it, it wasn't such as loss as a "better" archtop.

 

Harmony may have thinned up their necks in the '60s. Dunno. I played a Sovereign a bit in the mid '60s that belonged to a girlfriend. It sounded okay, but the playing of it wasn't marvelous. Then again we each have our own schtick.

 

I'd say that today the Epis of roughtly same design of Gibsons are awfully good in comparison, and far, far better in comparison than Harmonies of the '50s that were solid "playing guitars," but...

 

Then again, maybe I'm just a grouchy old man.

 

m

[charlie brown]

Well yes and no.

 

Harmony at least was using the same materials, wood, just cheap build and PUs hardware, frets etc.

 

My buddy has a 60s Rocket he just refretted, potted, rewired and kills my Casinos.

 

Had Harrison not found the little Gretsch he could have ended up with a Harmony like Keith and Brain, Dave Davies.........knowing it was a good American guitar and that is all those guys wanted, good American guitars.

 

If you have ever played a Sovereign that does not have the neck dive/collapse or problems with the top from the cheap ladder bracing they are great and would have no problems owning one if I could find one without issues.

 

I have a 60s Gretsch in for a neck pocket collapse, common known problem on their 50s and early 60s guitars that Baldwin and current Fender ownership fixed later on.

 

The budget builders Harmony, Kay back then were using the same wood piles and Nitro the rest of the guys were just cheap construction and components.

 

My buddy met one of the Heritage guys a few years back and he said in the 2000s they had finally just used the last of the wood pile that Gibson had left behind and abandoned when they moved.

 

Premium wood now, is what was common in the 50s through 2000s it was just that then wood.

 

Well, actually I wasn't knocking Harmony or Kay guitars! They were quite popular, back in the

day, and even then...not everyone could afford a Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, or Ric. A lot of those

"blues masters" moved up, of course, when they could afford it.

 

Point I was trying to convey, was that we're so friggin' spoiled now, with all that's available,

that even when someone gets a Gibson, they (often) promptly go about changing everything on it. LOL

I'd bet, still...if they were blindfolded, and heard a stock Gibson, or Epiphone played side by

side, they'd be hard pressed, to hear a substantial difference, between the brands, and/or one's

that had been "modded, to better!" Heck, some players in fairly popular groups, these days, go

out of their way, to FIND those old "cheap" guitars, and funky pickups, to get that sound, again!

Just to be "different," or because they love that funkier tone. It's all GOOD, as in whatever works,

or turns you on. I just don't know how much is really necessary. Chasing "tone," is a never ending

task, as one finds it, get's tired of it, and looks elsewhere...constantly. Manufacturers know, and

count on it! It's just ONE of the quirks, of being a guitar player, GAS-o-holic, over-consumer.

 

CB

[Jeffery Smith]

Well, actually I wasn't knocking Harmony or Kay guitars! They were quite popular, back in the

day, and even then...not everyone could afford a Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, or Ric. A lot of those

"blues masters" moved up, of course, when they could afford it.

 

Point I was trying to convey, was that we're so friggin' spoiled now, with all that's available,

that even when someone gets a Gibson, they (often) promptly go about changing everything on it. LOL

I'd bet, still...if they were blindfolded, and heard a stock Gibson, or Epiphone played side by

side, they'd be hard pressed, to hear a substantial difference, between the brands, and/or one's

that had been "modded, to better!" Heck, some players in fairly popular groups, these days, go

out of their way, to FIND those old "cheap" guitars, and funky pickups, to get that sound, again!

Just to be "different," or because they love that funkier tone. It's all GOOD, as in whatever works,

or turns you on. I just don't know how much is really necessary. Chasing "tone," is a never ending

task, as one finds it, get's tired of it, and looks elsewhere...constantly. Manufacturers know, and

count on it! It's just ONE of the quirks, of being a guitar player, GAS-o-holic, over-consumer.

 

CB

I thought your point was valid. I'm content to use Epiphones, Agiles, and Mexican Fenders when others might not be. If Harmony is in one's comfort zone, then go for it. I could sell all of my guitars and buy 3 or 4 Gibsons with the profits. I've owned Gibsons and a Martin, but I sound just as good (or bad) with a Sheraton and even better with a Texan.

[StRanger7032]

I'd bet, still...if they were blindfolded, and heard a stock Gibson, or Epiphone played side by side, they'd be hard pressed, to hear a substantial difference, between the brands

 

The guys at Anderton's Music actually posted a YouTube video where they did exactly that. I was surprised that they actually guessed pretty well. I was not expecting that at all, but then again, they work at a music shop and hear these guitars all the time.

 

[Barcham]

I never trust youtube videos from sources who have something to sell. Obviously they will choose whatever item makes them the most profit as the better sounding or easier to use.

[bigneil]

This is THE age old question that epi owners have been asking for years.

 

There is not too much I can add to the words of wisdom already imparted but I can offer my own opinion.

 

-Taking an Epi and improving it with electronic and hardware upgrades may very well improve the sound of the guitar and pull it up into the border regions of Gibson territory in terms of the sound quality, but the bottom line for me is that due to the different/cheaper manufacturing techniques the ergonomics feel different. For example my 09 epi lp standard had a much flatter neck angle and less pronounced "violin shape" carve on the top and possibly the distance between the bridge and the stop was slightly different to the Gibby standard I used to have not to mention the nut width and string spacings are different. These are all factors that will affect the "feel" of the guitar through different ergonomics and string tension differences ect. However I also have a 97 epi lp Unsung factory that does have ergonomics that are closer to a Gibson because the neck and head angle are more pronounced like a Gibson which in turn effects the height and set-up on the bridge and stop tail -It still has epi string spacing at the bridge and nut though.

 

But here is the bite, Is it worth the extra couple of thousand for the Gibby or are you happy to find an epi you like the feel of, then make any personal mods that you feel it needs for a fraction of the cost?

 

have to admit I have a habit of trying every guitar in the shop and taking home (without prejudice) the guitar that I liked the feel of best ... unless it was far to expensive, in which case, I would go home empty handed.

[Barcham]

It all depends on the Epi. My Elitist GT has SD Seth Lover pups and an RS Guitarworks harness and I would put it up against any Gibson on the market today, short of a custom shop or historic. Go though the Gibson catalog and find how many guitars come with a bone nut, real abalone and MoP inlays and a solid, non weight relieved body. I don't care about the nitro finish as it has zero effect on the tone of the guitar as far as I'm concerned and I prefer a nice smooth poly neck over a sticky nitro one in any case.

 

If I ever buy another Les Paul, it will surely be another Elitist. They simply cannot be topped for the price.