J-200 Koa Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I have been watching eBay and other sites for the prices of vintage acoustics trying to get a handle on what is considered a good investment. Martin seems to win hands down, especially the really old ones. For all of you who really know the score, how old does an acoustic have to be before it really appreciates in value? Which models are considered better investments than others? All I know is I should have bought a boatload of Martin acoustics when I was born....at my age, I would be rich now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 it's not a question of how old it is. that's a common mistake. if it was crap to start with, it will simply be old crap down the road. as for which ones are cool to buy.... well, no one is going to really give the inside line. anyone that really can see what is about to become hot isn't going to say until they have already bought a few. the best advice? forget what other people say and buy what you like. if you buy good stuff, you won't lose your butt and you will enjoy them along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscott4079 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 + 1 on what Modoc said. It's most certainly not about age or even brand. Usually certain models are in greater demand than others. Then, within the models, certain years are more collectable than others. Then, within the years, certain styles are more collectible than others. If you're looking at using vintage guitars as investments, I strongly encourage you to do lots of homework. I find the vintage guitar board at the UMGF especially helpful: Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum Vintage Board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-200 Koa Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 I know that Gibsons during the 1970's are usually considered inferior to either earlier or later years. Are there similar periods from other manufacturers such as Martin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I would avoid 70's Martins too.....I know I had one.....lot's of little problems..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-200 Koa Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 I assume this was not a great buy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130279922752 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 At one point in my life I owned 5-7 Norlin era 70's Gibsons, and I never had issue with any of them. They were all very good guitars. A couple were what I would say were the best Gibsons I ever laid hands on. Some better than others, but no problems with any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 the problem with norlins is rarely that they fall apart or anything. the problem is usually that they are overbuilt and therefore don't sound as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Wilson Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 From a pure monetary standpoint guitars aren't that great of an investment. From the stand point of it being an emotional investment and enjoyment of playing them with some increase in monetary value overtime, then they certainly are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 the problem with norlins is rarely that they fall apart or anything. And when they DO fall apart it's not simple stuff like popped up bridges, open seams, etc. It's caved in neck blocks, collapsed tops, very complex neck resets.... kinda like living in an old trailer and having a rotten bathroom floor. What do you DO about it? To fix it would mean more than it's worth. Not saying Norlin Gibsons aren't worth fixing, just saying you'd better have a darn good reason. It's either something you're desparately in love with or it's downright good. A $500 "as is" '73 J50 plus a $350 neck reset is not an $850 guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 And when they DO fall apart it's not simple stuff like popped up bridges' date=' open seams, etc. It's caved in neck blocks, collapsed tops, very complex neck resets.... kinda like living in an old trailer and having a rotten bathroom floor. What do you DO about it? To fix it would mean more than it's worth. Not saying Norlin Gibsons aren't worth fixing, just saying you'd better have a darn good reason. It's either something you're desparately in love with or it's downright good. A $500 "as is" '73 J50 plus a $350 neck reset is not an $850 guitar. [/quote'] you're very right. if you have one that you love to play, then that's great. i have a couple of norlin electrics that i like. i'm not hunting them out though, and i generally avoid norlin acoustics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 To the original poster...there is a cutoff year sometime in the 70's I believe where Rosewood Martin D-28's were made with Brazilian Rosewood before they switched to East Indian Rosewood (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway, I have a guitar teacher whose parents bought a guitar that was shared by she and her brother when they were youngsters. She was telling me her parents paid the inordinate sum (then) of $150 for the guitar, used. The guitar may have been from the 60's, I don't know the details. The point is she was able to sell the guitar within the last couple of years for $30k. Obviously, that one worked out pretty well as an investment. But I agree with Todd--by and large, guitars are not great investments. Now if you love them and play them and love to baby them and do that for decades and they end up being worth something when you die, don't want them anymore or your heirs don't want them anymore, then I would think you would be the exception, not the rule. The best thing I can say about guitars as an investment is that you can often get back *almost* what you paid for them at any time if you are a smart shopper and buy reliable/desirable brands. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 As it's been said - age doesn't mean anything. You can get an old Kay or Harmony, and it's not going to be a multi-thousand dollar guitar. It's one of two things - people who think "it's old so it's valuable," or guys who have an emotional connection to that model - a first guitar or something similar. I have my LG-0, and it's not worth much at all. I got it for free, and I currently have $200 invested in repairs. I'll probably have to put another $100 or so into it before it's playable. If I sold it, I could get about $400 for it, I reckon. My biggest fear is that once I can play it, I hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Vintage guitars are great investments ... if you know what to buy and have a little horse trading skill. And how many investments can you hold, cuddle, stand by your bed so it's the first thing you see in the morning, and make music with? Hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Guitar collecting and values work the same as any other collectible market. Its all based on what the collectors want and what they're willing to pay at any given time. The ultimate free market. Some models get hot with collectors wanting them, some do not...and sometimes it changes. And, sometimes its driven just by what George Gruhn, the ultimate guru in guitar collecting says about an instrument being collectible. Martins and Gibsons are excellent instruments in the collectible guitar world. To learn more about guitar collecting, I strongly suggest you subscribe to Vintage Guitar Magazine. Its like reading the Barons Financial Newsletter only on collectible guitars. (And, of course George Gruhn is a regular columnist in it.) Regarding Norlin Gibsons...they are collectible, but there just isn't as much collectible demand for them as there are for prior McCarty era Gibsons and earlier Gibsons. So, the Norlin Gibsons are lower in price. But, they're still good investments...but historically they haven't risen in price the same as prior year models because of less demand by collectors. But, they too have gone up in price, just not as much as other Gibsons. Since the collectible market is driven by collectors, that does not necessarily correlate to how good a guitar actually is. There are many great playing guitars out there that are not collectible...but, only because the fickle collectible market is driven by what collectors deem collectible. George Gruhn refers to the great playing guitars that are currently not collectible as fine utility instruments. Remember...guitars mean different things to collectors than to players...although a guitar player who is also a collector understands the best of both worlds. Some great utility instruments, by the way, some times turn into collectible instruments as the tide continually keeps changing. I've been a collector since about 1990 before the whole guitar collecting thang became a cottage industry unto itself. Back then, finding great guitars that were collectible was easy. However, since Eric Clapton auctioned off a good deal of his instruments, everyone and everyone thinks every guitar they have stored in their closet is extremely valuable...so its hard to find great values these days, but they're still out there. I'm also a player since the early 60's when I was nine years old. I originally started collecting guitars about 1990 because I finally had enough money that I was able to start buying all the guitars that I'd always wanted. Most of those have gone up in price four to eight times what I paid for them. Vintage guitar shows are pretty cool to go to and once in awhile a real bargain can still be found...just not like they used to be though. Gotta really look and keep an eye out on what is being sold and for how much. I bought my 1956 Epiphone FT79 (Texan) for only $400 at a vintage guitar show when it was laying in a corner with a ton of dust and grime on it. The seller (a dealer) just didn't realize what it was worth, but I was keen to it. (It's worth $3000.) It just needed about an hour's worth of cleaning it up. Years later I spoke to the seller/dealer and regularly visit with him at guitar shows. He is fine about the whole thang. He's a collector too and knows how it goes sometimes with sellers missing the value on certain items to educated buyers....he's had the shoe reversed as a buyer himself. Part of the collecting game. Hope this helps. QM ps. BTW, you should also purchase the Vintage Guitar Price Guide put out annually by Vintage Guitar Magazine. In addition to pricing, annually it lists how certain models/brands have gone up in price as some have gone down...in terms of investment value. Cool stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOESTONE Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I collect vintage upper model Harmony guitars. On myspace I have pictures of all my guitars, most of which are Harmonys. http://www.myspace.com/joestonesmusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Collecting is not a means of generating wealth. Guitars require care and maintenance as well as a climate controlled setting in order to maintain their value - these costs, combined with the slow growth of the market over periods of twenty or thirty years eat away at potential profits. Collecting guitars can have other values - in my own case I collect to educate my students and to provide them with hands on experience with guitars people often never get to see or touch. I rent them out for recording, I rent them out for photo shoots and calendars and I have a weekly jam people pay a pack of strings to attend. Through these endeavours I am able to maintain my collection without draining my income. If I did not have revenue streams with the instruments, my guitars would bankrupt me. My replacement insurance for an average of 35 guitars is around $185 a month. If you bought real estate instead of Martins when you were born, you would be in good shape now. This is to say nothing of IBM, Apple or Microsoft stocks. Still, to answer part of your question in the way it was asked - pre-war Martin and Gibson guitars carry excellent resale value as would any D'Angelico guitar you might come across. The market for wartime and post-war acoustics tends to shake along trend lines. If John Mayer played a banner logo Gibson, for example, the values would go up about 20%. The safest investment guitars are actually electrics. Flame top Les Paul Jr.'s from the 50s fetch a decent penny, a no-caster Fender or an early Tele or Tele Bass are also good investments. A 1962 Stratocaster in all-original condition is never going down in value and glamour guitars like the Gretsch White Falcon or a Koa Flying V will never cause you any harm. A guitar previously owned by someone famous (Hank, owned now by Neil Young is a D-28 from Williams Sr.) can fetch a shilling or two above the typical asking price - just look at what Guitar Center paid for Blackie, Eric Clapton's famous Stratocaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Ballcorner- Good post. The only thing I would add or clarify for the benefit of inexperienced collectors is to not confuse guitars actually played and readily associated with certain musicians (such as Hank Sr.'s guitar, Hendrix' guitars, Clapton's guitars) with promotional autographed guitars by performers. Promotional autographed guitars by performers are generally guitars the performer doesn't actually play or is readily associated with, but rather just autographs for fundraising events. Usually, these are inexpensive guitars, too and are not collectible. ie. The actual guitar Buddy Guy actually plays and is shown on album covers or when he dueted with Eric Clapton is likely a collectible guitar...especially if it is specifically identifiable and documented as that guitar. When Buddy Guy autographs a $120 Squire guitar and donates it to public television, it is not a collectible guitar. It is not the guitar he actually played, etc. as was donated strictly as a promotional item and therefore is not collectible. Any money spent for it is to benefit the fundraising event...a good thing, but should not be viewed as an investment or collectible guitar. The collectible market understands the difference between promo guitars and actual collectible guitars. Inexperienced collectors do not always understand this when they obtain a promotional guitar. Just thought I'd add that... BTW, your approach makes sense to the average collector such as myself. Although, in all recognition there are some really high rolling guitar collectors who devote a great deal of time, energy, and money in buying and turning around some collectible instruments at a significant profit...but, they generally do that for a living and not as a hobby. Some of their investments have exceeded some stock market returns....but, in truth, that kind of investing is nearly identical to investing in the stock market for a living. It's just another commodity. Cool posting string. QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Ballcorner- there are some really high rolling guitar collectors who devote a great deal of time' date=' energy, and money in buying and turning around some collectible instruments at a significant profit...but, they generally do that for a living and not as a hobby. QM [/quote'] There are indeed people who buy low and sell high - also people like myself who will buy in one currency and then sell in another - not actually getting much more for the instrument but making out like a bandit on the exchange rates. Still, the horse trading aspects of guitar dealing (should be separated from the idea of collecting, though related) take time to learn and the person making this post is basically asking "what should I go out and buy as an investment today?" I prefer to tell this person not to buy anything, because guitars are not a sound investment. There is a crash coming in the guitar market. Not only are there global economic meltdowns on the horizon, but the demographic that currently supports the vintage guitar bubble is getting older and eventually will die out. Do you think an emo kid is going to want a '34 Martin D-28? A better question: Do you think enough emo kids are going to want that instrument in twenty years that it will still be worth up to $150,000? If you look at collecting from a historical perspective, you might come to the same conclusion I have: There are tulips in every generation. At one time, a tulip bulb was worth more than gold, and right now really old guitars are worth a ton of cash. It changed for tulips, and when music evolves to be more about creativity than hands on playing skill these guitars will become as interesting as four string banjos. A friend of mine bought a keyboard a few weeks ago that accompanies him as he plays. There was a time when these Korg keyboards sounded like crap, but that is no longer the case. You can directly record the output from this keyboard as a complete mix - including guitar synthesis that no longer sounds like synthesized guitar. It is only a matter of time before you simply won't need to be able to play any of the parts - you will hum into a microphone, or sing a song as you make it up, and the digital interface is going to do the rest for you. Remember when we had to dial the phone with our fingers in the rotary dial? Now we hit one button and our mother-in-law sounds like she is in the next room. Oh, thank the Lord she isn't really in the next room, but you get my drift, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 If you buy a Gibson made before ~1965, or a Martin before 1970, or a Fender before 1975 (just as a limited rule of thumb) and you pay a reasonable price for it, you will almost never lose money on it, and most likely will see it increase in value at least as fast as money in the stock market, possibly a lot faster. And there a lot of other makes from other decades that will appreciate, too. Should you put all your investment money in guitars? Probably not, but you will enjoy whatever you do invest in vintage guitars a lot more than you will your other investments. I know of one chap who has bought four million dollar's worth of vintage guitars in the past few years, but I imagine it's not much fun for him at that level, even though it might pay off big in a few years. Buy what you love, stay within your comfort level, keep learning and researching, and enjoy one of the most satisfying hobbies around. And keep playing 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Buy what you love' date=' stay within your comfort level, keep learning and researching, and enjoy one of the most satisfying hobbies around. And keep playing 'em![/quote'] i'm in! well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnt Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 i'm in! well said. I am with that too, the "keep playing them" bit that is! I have stamp COLLECTION I have a "herdette" of playing guitars. (Once I had over 30 most of which sat there depreciating in value (in REAL terms)) Which will make me money as an investment? I don't give a rats arse! If I want to make money by investment I have my chain of bordellos! But then again thats just my very humble opnion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I read one article on collectable Guitars......say you bought that Martin for $30K???? Try and get insurance on it. It just isn't that easy to convince a company to insure the guitar for that amount. Also....can't insure it for damage, just fire and theft, and even a guitar lost in a fire is hard to proove. So....you going to let your buddies buckle rash your 1938 Martin OM 42 at a play around jam???? Is it going to be your daily go to guitar???? As far as I'm concerned, the 'vintage' market is like the story of the emperor who has no clothes......Who would buy a guitar just because Roy Rodgers played it? Who can prove provenance???? It is a crap shoot.....If you like the guitar, and it sounds good, just buy it and play it....if you have to keep it in a vault and never play it because you are afraid to scratch it....are you owning the guitar or is the guitar owning you????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Wiley, there's a happy medium. A $6k late 40's Southern Jumbo with lots of what around here is lovingly called "mojo" is not going to suffer from the addition a bit more "mojo", and can be passed around any jam session, yet that guitar will continue to appreciate handsomely. Would I take the same chances with a pre-war D-45, or even a pre-1970 D-45? Probably not. When we talk about collectible guitars, there are $2000, $20,000, and $200,000 examples of same, so pick your comfort level, and play 'em! As for insurance, I recently learned there is a specialty company that insures musical instruments for 1% of insured value per annum. I have been meaning to look into it. It's called "Heritage Insurance Services." If they are anything like my collector car insurance company they will be sensitive to the special concerns of instrument owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I became a collector by accident. Back when I started to gig I could not afford new guitars so I bought used. About the only guitars I recall being considered "vintage" as opposed to just used were the pre-War Martin herringbones. Wished I had taken better care of 'em now - particularly the 1950s electrics. Ya want an example - my #1 electric for alot of decades - my 1958 Tele - early one with string through body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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