Epiphone PR-5E with double pickup system.

[guitta]

Hello,

I need a good hum-/noiseless acoustic electric for composing/recording.

I don't need very loud instrument, just want to make a full rich recordings in a room with effective budget.

 

Having the opportunity to buy a used PR-5E, I'm also thinking about adding a second pickup.

I like the configuration of Epi EJ-200CE or EF-500RCCE with TWO outputs, but also like the shape and thickness of PR5-E. I know, Milod, you're a fan :) .

 

Is it worth to replace a regular eSonic (moreover, I found it a little bg noisy) with a Shadow SH Performer Double Play?

Is Performer DP on par with LR Baggs/Fishman/etc?

 

What else could you recommend?

May be a pure acoustic (other brands?) with a similar to PR5-E tone plus another pickup(s)/pre or a straight wired/passive pickup(s)?

May be the best way is a pickup/outside mic combo?

 

Thanks!

[milod]

I'd say "fan" rather than "fun." <chortle>

 

Actually my PR5e is fine just as it is. I'd say it's well worth taking to somebody to figure why yours is noisy.

 

Mine works well through the board if there is one, or through my AE amp. The latter at home for practice sessions goes through an inexpensive USB connection into the computer - and it works quite well with both guitar and mike through the amp since one can easily get a decent eq.

 

For what it's worth, I did a "cowboy music" gig a few years ago in southeast Montana where there were some Brit video guys who'd done music videos and they were quite impressed with the little guitar - and more impressed when I told them the price tag. In that case it was run through a pretty common powered amp/PA system for the little community hall in an unincorporated "town" where once "the boys" had a heck of a gunfight with cattle rustlers.

 

And figure too, that was fingerpicking with 9-42 DR Zebra strings. But the control set on the guitar and on the PA amp made it sound quite nice even through the relatively inexpensive speakers too... And we're talking under $700-800 as far as I can tell in current available equipment.

 

Straight acoustic ... yeah, it's relatively weak, although if you're a gentle fingerpicker as I am, it's fine. But I'm more a "playability" guy than a "gotta sound like X or Y" guy.

 

I think if you get the original equipment to work well, that's about what you'd need. I've used mine for everything from "Misty" to "Last Steam Engine Train" to old and new "cowboy" material.

 

I do have an AJ500me with the mag as well as the undersaddle pup. Yes if you keep the wires connected (Is that the cause maybe of your PR5e noise?), it sounds marvelous, and far better than just the undersaddle when both are combined. But... I personally don't think it'd be worth that hassle of trying to put onto a PR5e that works quite well for me as is. In fact, if I had "a bundle," I think it'd be worth putting an EL-00 short scale neck onto a PR5e more than messing with "upgraded" pups. And that'd mean cutting up two nice little inexpensive Epis and spending as much as on one of the newer small body Gibsons. That may tell you how I do reeeally like the feel and shape of the PR5e.

 

Now... a caveat for you. If you're a strummer 'stedda a light fingerpicker, and wear heavier strings and play it "heavier," I'd say all bets are off.

 

Even so, the same guy (a rancher who's known as a cowboy musician and poet in that buncha folks) that has run the board for me in Montana has a similar size/shape Gibbie early 1950s CF100ce with functionally a P90 mag pup on it. He flatpicks much heavier strings than I use, but is pretty gentle with it. I think it has a sound perfect for how and what he plays.

 

His originally non-electric CF100c has a Fishman soundhole pup, and it sounds as good or better. He's made no attempt at adding an undersaddle. Yes, the CF100c is about the same size/shape as the PR5e. I just ain't got an extra $5-6,000 to get one in good condition.

 

So... I guess what I'm saying is that for what I do, and what I like about the guitar, it'd be pretty much a waste of cash to double the price of the guitar. OTOH, I'd first ensure all the wire connections are good for what you have. In a worst case, were it mine, if I couldn't figure loose wires, I'd take off the strings and check the undersaddle pup. If that didn't work... I'd have pretty much the same rig put back into it by somebody I trust more than I trust me.

 

Hope this helps.

 

m

[guitta]

oh, my bad, sorry,

corrected :)

 

Thank you for reply.

 

Yeah, I've read muuch of your posts, including that about Brit video gig and EL-00' neck idea. Great info!

 

Seems it works pretty well, but there is some kind of a background white noise when turning up esonic' volume pot. If the knob at zero, there is nothing, so it's not a cable problem.

I have a hi quality pres on my external sound card, so it's not the interface too. I didn't do any precision measurements yet, may be that hum has a nominal level, but I'm not sure.

Shadow says eSonic has 90db SNR, but it's certainly not for my ears.

 

I usually fingerpick and flatpick easily, finding some great tones and making pleasant melodies. So my purpose of putting a double pup system is creating a thick, full and deep complex sound of acoustic, mono and stereo variations.

 

Now it's a medium light 12-54 Rotosound JK12(and I like it) on my test PR5-E.

 

Yes, I will take off the strings, check USP, connectors and will twist that two cables inside the body to exclude interferences.

 

So what do you finally think about Shadow SH Performer Double Play?

Could I improve and make a richer sound of PR5-E with this particular double system or with LR Baggs iBeam or/and Element system, Fishman, etc.?

I would be very grateful if you could find some time to measure your nanoMAG pup dimensions.

[milod]

I'll check the nanomag this evening but...

 

I had some "squeal" at one point connecting to my computer. My "baby" brother (he's around 40), suggested that it was due to the way the wiring was going into the computer. I messed with that a bit and it ended the problem.

 

OTOH, I go directly through the USB into Audacity. I tried using my nice little sound card and it never worked well. The direct USB did.

 

If you don't hear that noise from an amp, it's somehow elsewhere.

 

Since it sounds as if you're going from the guitar into a sound card... I'm not surprised there may be difficulty.

 

As for the two-pup setup on my Masterbuilt... Yeah, it is a little thicker if one combines the two pups. On the other hand, I think the PR5e's undersaddle alone puts out more quality than the undersaddle alone on the two-pup rig on the Masterbuilt. That may be just me, or it may be the way the preamp works. I think the twin-pup rig on the Masterbuilt fits it fine, especially for flatpicking, but I don't find it does more of what I like in terms of sound compared to the outfit on the PR5e.

 

m

[guitta]

I certainly will try to get a good signal from the сurrent setup at first.

I know my equipment well and this bg noise is coming from esonic pre no question.

 

Do you think I have to keep PR5-E (model as such) and don't try to find a pure/ac-el alternative from other brands (silly question for being here) for similar(more) money and tone for recording purpose?

 

And what do you think about bone saddle/nut for PR5-E? Excessive for such kind budget instrument?

[milod]

I may be wrong, but my own experience going through several computer sound cards was not good. Running directly through the USB port (with converter for the line-out of an amp or PA) works quite well if one is careful to watch where the wires travel so as not to pick up signal from the computer itself or other electronics.

 

Again... did you try the guitar through an amp, not running direct into the computer?

 

Back to the guitar itself... my philosophy on changing things out is pretty much, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

That's not a matter of price. I've just played with too many "upgrades" that really didn't make a significant difference to what an audience heard.

 

My PR5e works very, very well run through an inexpensive AE amp, through a board of various sorts, and with the line-out even into a powered speaker rig or with a USB converter into the computer. I have a bunch of more expensive guitars that don't get played while this one does; it sounds good amplified and it has pretty good proportions for my personal physical geometry for playing.

 

m

[guitta]

No, no problems with computer/interface/cables/routes here.

 

I take your point, thanks.

[guitta]

I'm considering some variants of recording with a mic last days.

Can't find trustworthy information related to a SNR and background noise level for recording acoustic guitar through a pickup.

 

With the gain level of my sound card pre at min and on the guitar pre at max, I've got a noisefloor at -84dBFS,

while max level of a signal (sixth/bass string) achieves -34dBFS. So diff (that is SNR, I believe) is 50dB.

 

Turning the sound card' preamp gain knob up, or connecting the guitar to a line input, the diff remains respectively (50dB).

Cable is not a problem, coz when I turn the guitar pre down to a min, the noisefloor comes to it's best.

 

But epiphone says esonic pre has a 90dB SNR.

Where am I wrong?

Any recordists here?

[LPS1976]

I'm considering some variants of recording with a mic last days.

Can't find trustworthy information related to a SNR and background noise level for recording acoustic guitar through a pickup.

 

With the gain level of my sound card pre at min and on the guitar pre at max, I've got a noisefloor at -84dBFS,

while max level of a signal (sixth/bass string) achieves -34dBFS. So diff (that is SNR, I believe) is 50dB.

 

Turning the sound card' preamp gain knob up, or connecting the guitar to a line input, the diff remains respectively (50dB).

Cable is not a problem, coz when I turn the guitar pre down to a min, the noisefloor comes to it's best.

 

But epiphone says esonic pre has a 90dB SNR.

Where am I wrong?

Any recordists here?

 

 

is there a specific reason you are plugging the acoustic in vs. a mic?

[guitta]

It's because of not ideal recording environment.

And there is just one mic currently here (rode nt-1, possibly not the best one for ac guitar AFAIK).

Except of that not really.

 

Do you think recording of the all laminate guitar will be better with mic nevertheless?

[LPS1976]

It's because of not ideal recording environment.

And there is just one mic currently here (rode nt-1, possibly not the best one for ac guitar AFAIK).

Except of that not really.

 

Do you think recording of the all laminate guitar will be better with mic nevertheless?

 

 

I think recording of any acoustic guitar should be with a mic regardless of the material. the NT1 is a good mic. I have a Rode NKT tube mic that is great! when you say not an ideal recording environment, what are your conditions?

[guitta]

it's just not treated room, and not completely silent

I'll think, what I can do for mic recording

[LPS1976]

it's just not treated room, and not completely silent

I'll think, what I can do for mic recording

 

 

there are a few ways around that. try making a wall behind the mic using a couple of chairs and a thick blanket. the room doesn't really have to be treated as much as the area around your mic and guitar. don't be afraid to experiment. I record acoustics in my studio at my desk even with my room being larger than my iso booth. you may want to try a smaller diaphragm mic so it doesn't pic up so much of the room. there are some decent ones out there that wont break the bank. good luck!

[guitta]

Yeah, I'm learning in this direction now, and also considering to try a small adjacent checkroom here.

Thank you for your thoughts!

[milod]

Sorry I've been off this a while - it's a theoretical "vacation" this week.

 

Bottom line on this is that there are so many variables on any and everything that most answers are "right" under certain conditions and personal opinions.

 

I've had fine results from using my PR5e through that little AE amp and then running it into the USB for recording. Others with other opinions are more than welcome to them, but one must needs note that also mikes aren't "perfect" and each will have somewhat of a different response and "output."

 

Some of the "better" mikes for recording are not inexpensive.

 

Then again, one might note that different guitars and player techniques will also be heard differently by different mikes.

 

Strings will be different as will be something of their response. Personally as a fingerpicker who works his way up the neck on some material, I've not had problems with my light gauge strings sounding fine through the board or recording. Apparently either some have problems, or at least feel that they have problems.

 

Personally I doubt that a mike that worked marvelously for Segovia would work so well for a Flamenco player, say Carlos Montoya, where percussiveness of various sorts were added far more than in "classical" music.

 

I haven't owned a pure acoustic guitar in around 40 years because I figure it's not worth it to hope that mikes will somehow reflect a concept of "purity" of "my sound" whether live or recording.

 

Now, for a more "pro" response, yeah, you probably should be miked in a sound-damped room (or in a tiled staircase for reverb as done in some 1950s recordings) with a high quality mike, through a high quality everything. That likely also means a higher quality guitar than our PR5e.

 

Bottom line on it all, to me at least, is that there are so many variables of expectations of guitar and recording that I'd not choose to say "it's gotta be this." A good mike? Sure. How about a good mixer, then, to mix voice and guitar into some sort of recording device? And what quality recording device? Assuming digital, there are myriad variations and opinions on "what is good enough."

 

I can tell you what has worked well for me, and better than with more expensive equipment I've seen others use. As in photography, every advantage you might achieve is offset by a disadvantage. A 2.8 telephoto lens may be nice to have, but it costs significantly more than a 4.5 telephoto. I note that I haven't even seen a 1.4 digital Nikon "normal" camera lens (I'm sure they're available somewhere) due to cost and questions whether the cost is worth it. In the old film days, it was; I even toyed with buying a 1.2 that was way, way more costly. But would it have given me advantages worth the cost?

 

That last is your question.

 

It's a lotta research. The question is what is available for options, and then what is it worth to you at this point to take a $300 guitar into recording something?

 

m

[guitta]

Being toyed with the test PR-5E enough, I've ended up buying it.

Half price for a condition of a new from a good hands, I couldn't resist.

 

I've decided not to spend money for any modding (for the time being at least).

Found it optimal for now. It stays as is.

 

I like the timbre. Be it from laminated or solid... anyway

It's not to say about the shape and size.

My new toy :)

 

Now I'm going to spend a time to experiment and see, how it sounds in a complex mix.

[milod]

Guitta...

 

Any guitar is a complex instrument once you get "into" variables.

 

Best of luck on your future with that little guitar - and may you long enjoy its strengths.

 

m

[guitta]

Thank you, Milod,

and the same to you!

[LPS1976]

Being toyed with the test PR-5E enough, I've ended up buying it.

Half price for a condition of a new from a good hands, I couldn't resist.

 

I've decided not to spend money for any modding (for the time being at least).

Found it optimal for now. It stays as is.

 

I like the timbre. Be it from laminated or solid... anyway

It's not to say about the shape and size.

My new toy :)

 

Now I'm going to spend a time to experiment and see, how it sounds in a complex mix.

 

 

made any progress on recording?