Could the epiphone sheraton II be as good as a Gibson ES 335?

[IanHenry]

I don't think anyone is disputing that the difference between an Epiphone and a Gibson may be fairly small when compared to the huge difference in price - generally there's a law of diminishing returns when it comes to guitars. However, that's a different observation to saying that, taking country of origin out of the equation, an Epi Dot with upgraded parts is the same guitar as a Gibson Dot RI. Ultimately it is for the individual to decide whether a small improvement in quality justifies the large extra outlay.

 

There's two ways to look at this. If you have two guitars, one of which is maybe 10% better but costs five times the price of the other, it seems like a no-brainer that the cheaper guitar is the better purchase. But, on the other hand, if you're going to spend a dozens of hours a week playing the guitar you buy, and you plan to carry on playing it into old age, then it takes on a different slant: because that hefty pricetag is a one time hit and you'll be feeling the benefit of that 10% edge it had over the cheaper guitar for many years into the future.

 

I bought my ES355 nearly 20 years ago - it wasn't expensive by today's standards but to an 18 year old paying out of his own pocket it was a frightening amount to be spending on a guitar. Could have got myself a nice Sheraton for much less than I paid for the Gibson and it would have been a decent guitar, but 20 years on I still play that 355 every day and it still outperforms any Korean or Chinese Sheraton I've ever played - so from a value for money point of view it was the best purchase I could have made.

 

Plus the Gibson is still worth a substantial amount of money (more than the original purchase price?) but the Epiphone will be almost worthless by comparison.

 

Ian

[tabeck5]

There is a huge difference between expensive and overpriced. Even with some of Gibson's expensive prices, many of their guitars remain a good value but many are overpriced. Let's take a simple Traditional Les Paul, it is tough to argue that this is not a wonderful instrument and I think Gibson electrics right now are as good as they have ever been. If you are going to buy the raw materials for this guitar (just the wood) you would be looking at about $375 (I am using Stew-Mac discounted pricing, obviously Gibson is getting their wood for a bit less than that), now if you were to get the hardware (bridges, tailpiece, tuning machines, Pickups, mounting rings, pots, knobs, etc) you would be looking at another $650 or so. Again, these are not exact prices but I am not even throwing in the cost of binding, finishing supplies, a hard shell case, inlay, etc. So at this point all we have is a box of parts and unfinished wood and you are already out of pocket over $1K. LP Trad sells today for about $2300. Figure in manufacturing costs, shipping costs, dealer costs and I think that $2300 is a very fair price for this guitar. Now the only Epiphone LP that is comparable to this guitar is probably in the $700 price range (like the Tribute plus), so roughly 1/3 of the price. The Gibson is the better guitar by a pretty wide margin IMHO, maybe not 3X the guitar but in the ballpark. The Sheraton II will set you back $599 versus the Gibson Memphis ES-335 at $3699, so the Gibson is more expensive by a whopping factor of 6! That to me sounds overpriced, not just expensive.

[Jayyj]

The Tribute Plus is their top line LP with Gibson pickups, Switchcraft electronics etc. The Sheraton does not have those features, so a fairer comparison would be the recent 62 Reissue with similar upgrades to US electronics, that in the UK was more expensive than the Tribute Plus (£599 for the Sheraton vs £539 for the Tribute Plus). I don't really follow US pricing but I was on Wildwood's site this week and they had Gibson Dot RIs for $2999. In the UK the LP Traditional retails at £1799, and the Standard 335 £2399. That makes a LP Traditional 3 1/3 times as expensive as an Epi Tribute Plus, and a Gibson ES335 4 times the price of a Sheraton 62 Reissue. A bit more of a mark up on a 335 but then it's a premium product, and most companies will shave their margin on cheaper product they want to turnover quickly and be happy to take a little more on the premium stuff.

 

Just my take on the numbers, anyway.

[tabeck5]

Another fair comparison is the recent Epiphone ES175 for $899, the Gibson equivalent is $4,899. The EPI is less than 1/5 the price, i've played both and the Epi version is nearly equal to it. With some, not all Gibson's you are paying for the name on the headstock. Fair enough, it is a free market economy and if people will pay it, then Gibson is foolish for not selling them at that price. Personally, I like to pay for tone, not the name on the headstock. Although the Gibson Super 400 might be worth it at 10K, nothing else like it in the world.

[IanHenry]

As very few people on those forums use the guitars we buy to make our living, the differences in tone etc are largely irrelevant, so what it boils down to is do you like nice quality products for your hobby? You certainly don't need them. It's a bit like buying Jewellery, I'm sure most peoples Wife/Girlfriend would prefer something from a quality Jeweller's over something bough from a T.V shopping channel!

 

The one relevant factor is if you can afford it, it's as simple as that!

 

At the end of the day it's your money and your choice, I think I'll stick with my Gibson's because, well I like them.

 

Ian

[JazzGtr]

Simple Answer = No!

 

Complex Answer = The illusion of better is so subjective to the individual that it could transfers the ideal to the player that he's playing a better guitar and hence sounds like a better guitar player. Ninety percent (90%) of playing is what the player believes in whether it's true or not. Think about the first time you pick up a guitar, we all had this thought that we sound like crap. But every day from that first day we started to believe that we were getting better with practice. Eventually we bought into the ideal that time, money, better equipment added to our playing abilities. It's the same thing with other things like a car horse power makes us better drivers or person. The more HP a car has the more we want it.

 

Did I hear somebody say Ferrari?

 

Jazz

[budglo]

There is a huge difference between expensive and overpriced. Even with some of Gibson's expensive prices, many of their guitars remain a good value but many are overpriced. Let's take a simple Traditional Les Paul, it is tough to argue that this is not a wonderful instrument and I think Gibson electrics right now are as good as they have ever been. If you are going to buy the raw materials for this guitar (just the wood) you would be looking at about $375 (I am using Stew-Mac discounted pricing, obviously Gibson is getting their wood for a bit less than that), now if you were to get the hardware (bridges, tailpiece, tuning machines, Pickups, mounting rings, pots, knobs, etc) you would be looking at another $650 or so. Again, these are not exact prices but I am not even throwing in the cost of binding, finishing supplies, a hard shell case, inlay, etc. So at this point all we have is a box of parts and unfinished wood and you are already out of pocket over $1K. LP Trad sells today for about $2300. Figure in manufacturing costs, shipping costs, dealer costs and I think that $2300 is a very fair price for this guitar. Now the only Epiphone LP that is comparable to this guitar is probably in the $700 price range (like the Tribute plus), so roughly 1/3 of the price. The Gibson is the better guitar by a pretty wide margin IMHO, maybe not 3X the guitar but in the ballpark. The Sheraton II will set you back $599 versus the Gibson Memphis ES-335 at $3699, so the Gibson is more expensive by a whopping factor of 6! That to me sounds overpriced, not just expensive.

I dont know of anyone who paid 3699 for a Gibson 335. I have bought 2 , a 2012 figured cherry and a Vintage sunburst figured. I paid 1900 and 2100 respectively. Since the Epi doesnt come with a case you really should add 100. Right now GCs here are selling the figured 335s at 2599. Get the 15 percent discount and its yours for 2200. Not really 6x , but more like 3.5 times more. Not really overpriced as it seems.

[tabeck5]

The fine print on the GC coupon does not allow you to use it on Gibson's, and you can find cheaper retailers for both Epi & Gibson regardless of the model, using the same non-discounted pricing makes for a much fairer comparison (since you could apply a 15% discount to the Epi and strengthen the counter argument). I think some are missing the point, I am not saying Gibson's are not fine guitars, the electric guitars they are putting out now are, for the most part, great instruments. Quality is uniformly good and there is nothing wrong with paying good money for quality. What I am arguing here is that many are overpriced, that is to say you are not getting good value for your money. You could pay less and get tone that is the equal of a Gibson. Also, think about this, for years people considered Asian cars as junk, cheaper than their American counterparts and people by God wanted Ford's and Chevy's, just like we always have. People eventually realized that the Asian cars were better and cheaper, Ford and Chevy were forced to build better products to compete. Competition is a good thing for consumers, you can for very little money walk into any guitar store and purchase a good instrument that a working musician can afford, that was not always the case. For some people it is important to have Gibson on the headstock, and are willing to pay a premium, I can't argue with that.

[budglo]

The fine print on the GC coupon does not allow you to use it on Gibson's, and you can find cheaper retailers for both Epi & Gibson regardless of the model, using the same non-discounted pricing makes for a much fairer comparison (since you could apply a 15% discount to the Epi and strengthen the counter argument). I think some are missing the point, I am not saying Gibson's are not fine guitars, the electric guitars they are putting out now are, for the most part, great instruments. Quality is uniformly good and there is nothing wrong with paying good money for quality. What I am arguing here is that many are overpriced, that is to say you are not getting good value for your money. You could pay less and get tone that is the equal of a Gibson. Also, think about this, for years people considered Asian cars as junk, cheaper than their American counterparts and people by God wanted Ford's and Chevy's, just like we always have. People eventually realized that the Asian cars were better and cheaper, Ford and Chevy were forced to build better products to compete. Competition is a good thing for consumers, you can for very little money walk into any guitar store and purchase a good instrument that a working musician can afford, that was not always the case. For some people it is important to have Gibson on the headstock, and are willing to pay a premium, I can't argue with that.

The fine print on those coupons dont really mean anything. I can get the 15 percent off on just about any given day. I dont really see the Epis competing with Gibsons IMO. Totally different price point. Apple and oranges really. Most people who buy Epis buy them and mod them . Its a great platform for that. But not everyone is looking for a "budget " guitar or a "best bang for the buck" kind of guitar. I dont see the 335 as overpriced as you say.You look at the Nashville made 335s and you might have an argument. Like I said , I bought both of my 335s for around 2k new . Deals are there if you look.

[tabeck5]

Back to the original post, can the Epiphone Sheraton II be as good as the Gibson ES335, yes, it can. Like Keith Richards says, give me 5 minutes with any of em, I'll make em all sound the same.

[Jayyj]

Back to the original post, can the Epiphone Sheraton II be as good as the Gibson ES335, yes, it can. Like Keith Richards says, give me 5 minutes with any of em, I'll make em all sound the same.

 

Keith may very well say that but he has enough money that the difference in price between an Epi and a Gibson is irrelevant, and doesn't need a name on a headstock to make himself look cool - and still, when he goes for a semi he chooses to play a Gibson 355. I've no doubt that Keith, or any number of players, can make an Epi sound amazing, but doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer to play the Gibson. If you're playing professionally you choose the best tool for the job, not the cheapest you can get good results from.

 

This conversation is going round in circles and I don't think anyone is going change their opinion. At the end of the day I don’t really care if other people believe their Epi is as good as a Gibson. I can see, feel and hear the difference, and so I play the Gibson - that's the only relevant piece of this argument for me.

[bobouz]

This conversation is going round in circles and I don't think anyone is going change their opinion.

The OP's question is too open ended.

 

If you're talking about tone, out of the box no, but if modded the Sheraton II could very well step into the 335 ballpark.

 

If you're talking about playability, everyone's different, and a Sheraton II might just be your holy grail.

 

If you're talking about overall build quality, absolutely not. In this department, the Sheraton II simply reflects it's price point, and offers a reasonably good platform.

 

And finally if you're talking about overall value, that will simply remain in the eye of the beholder.

[Pin]

The OP's question is too open ended.

 

If you're talking about tone, out of the box no, but if modded the Sheraton II could very well step into the 335 ballpark.

 

If you're talking about playability, everyone's different, and a Sheraton II might just be your holy grail.

 

If you're talking about overall build quality, absolutely not. In this department, the Sheraton II simply reflects it's price point, and offers a reasonably good platform.

 

And finally if you're talking about overall value, that will simply remain in the eye of the beholder.

 

And that ^^ above is about as good an answer as you can get.

[tabeck5]

 

This guy might say otherwise.

[Pin]

Whatever John Lee Hooker might or might not say, the fact remains that the build quality of Epiphone is nowhere near that of Gibson unless we are talking of the original 1960s and before Epiphones.

[IanHenry]

 

This guy might say otherwise.

 

I thought he was dead!

 

Ian

[tabeck5]

The music lives on. While Epiphone does make some "cheap" guitars, they make guitars that do rival those of parent Gibson. The Epiphone Elitist are some great guitars, regardless of what is on the headstock and they are not the only ones.

[bobouz]

The music lives on. While Epiphone does make some "cheap" guitars, they make guitars that do rival those of parent Gibson. The Epiphone Elitist are some great guitars, regardless of what is on the headstock and they are not the only ones.

References to Elitists, or the guitar JLH is holding, have nothing to do with the OP's question about the Sheaton II.

 

The $599 Sheraton II made predominantly in Korea and China, and it's direct comparison to a Gibson 335, is what this thread has been all about.

 

It is a given that original Kalamazoo made Sheratons, or the Terada-Japan made Sheraton Elitist & 1964 JLH Sheraton, are the equivalent in build quality to Gibson. I happen to own a '64 JLH Sheraton and it is an amazing instrument. The nitro-finished body was built by Terada, and then shipped to Gibson in Nashville for hardware and assembly. But this guitar and the others I've just mentioned (all utilizing Gibson mini-humbuckers) are as far removed from the OP's Sheraton II question as you can get.

[tabeck5]

The response was to the comment "the fact remains that the build quality of Epiphone is nowhere near that of Gibson", that statement is not at all accurate.

[bobouz]

The response was to the comment "the fact remains that the build quality of Epiphone is nowhere near that of Gibson", that statement is not at all accurate.

On that we would agree, but your post of the JLH photo came before that comment, and such a reference tends to muddy the waters. The poster you responded to did note original Epiphones and Kalamazoo Epiphones, and to that I would most definitely add the Elitists, Sheraton and Casino AIUSA (Assembled in USA) Epiphones, '64 McCartney Texan (built by Terada, as well as two Montana versions), and a limited number of other post-Kalamazoo Gibson-USA made Epiphones.

[Bernie69]

Hi guys

 

IMO the original question hides actually three questions (coming back recurrently in this thread):

first: if I upgrade my epi will I get a Gibson?

second: will an upgrade get me a better guitar ?

three: are the Gibsons overpriced ?

 

Below my answers ( right to react allowed )

 

first: the answer is NO, if you want a Gibson, get a Gibson.

I can give you an example of what owning a Gibson involves:I sometimes play in restaurants with friends playing mainly american folk and french songs, and to spice their show they invite me on some blues. They introduce me like this : "now Bernard and his Gibson will join us on stage for some blues " can you imagine one moment my friend saying : "and now Bernard and his......Yamaha.....Ibanez .....Aria will ..join us ......." ???? Gibsons are really associated by audiences and players with a certain kind of music for ever .

 

second: the answer is YES but it depends on the model: Emperor Joe PAss, Broadways, Sheratons are good candidates because they already are exceptional guitars, I would not say the same for the epi ES175 (the one I tried was a real crap)

The guitars deserving a change of pups must be unique, like the Joe PAss: perfect body size, not big as the 175, not too slim as the 135/37, why Epiphone does not continue the elitist range ( there was once a Broadway ???) including the Joe PAss ? it would be a hit.

I had an amazing one with a striking sunburst, perfect neck and they still produce them! a real bargain!

Many jazz musicians have JP modified and happy with them and proud of them.

 

third: YES or NO depending on the model.

Paradoxally, the best bargains are not on the low end .A good example is the satin 335 some years ago , a stripped down 335 still sold at an exaggerated high price. The same for all the studios !!!!

A miracle occured some years ago with the es 339 , the same price as the satin 335 but this time completly finished

with beautiful coatings and a neck binding!!! This guitar was sold at a fair price .

And if we speak about the high end 335s45/55 they are a little overpriced but it's the toll for exceptional and professional instruments.

 

 

SO to come back to the initial question:my answer is; if you upgrade your epi , you'll be the happy owner of an exceptional guitar!!!

[tabeck5]

Well said!

[charlie brown]

 

This guy might say otherwise.

 

Yes, but THAT Sheraton was made in the Gibson Kalamazoo plant, right along side

all the Gibson guitars, and with equal quality, throughout!

 

CB

[Bernie69]

This picture is gorgeous;

 

the guitar is absolutly stunning and so are JLH stars socks !!!!

 

Epiphone produced amazing guitars in the past, and they should develop the "elitist" concept.

 

The son of US friends of mine travelling through Europe stopped at home one day with a 000 size acoustic in the original cardboard case.

 

It was an epiphone guitar made in the early sixties, it sounded exactly like the 000 martin, it had a fret 0 like the gypsies

 

guitars and an height adjustable bridge.

 

I asked the young man if he wanted to sell me this guitar at any price , he laughed and said the guitar was given to him by his

 

grandfather and that he will keep it forever in the family.

 

Nice young guy !!!!

[bobouz]

The son of US friends of mine travelling through Europe stopped at home one day with a 000 size acoustic in the original cardboard case, It was an epiphone guitar made in the early sixties, it sounded exactly like the 000 martin, it had a fret 0 like the gypsies guitars and an height adjustable bridge. I asked the young man if he wanted to sell me this guitar at any price , he laughed and said the guitar was given to him by his grandfather and that he will keep it forever in the family.

Bernie, in the future, do a lot of research before you put an offer like that on the table. The guitar you are describing is not a '60s Epiphone made by Gibson - but perfectly fits the specs of the first wave of Asian Epiphones made in the '70s in Japan. These are typically of poor quality and have very little resale value. The zero fret is a dead giveaway regarding it's origin.