onewilyfool Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 My Buddy is a collector…usually Vintage guitars, and he tells me that a re-finished vintage guitar is worth about 50% of what an original finish guitar…even if the original finish is crap!!…lol…I just don't get it. Often, these refinished guitars have have the neck reset, maybe new fretboard and frets, repaired cracks, often looking brand new and ready for another 75-100 years???, and THAT guitar is worth 50% of what an original vintage guitar that needs $1200 worth of repairs is worth twice as much??? I mean in the so called "Vintage" or antique car business, where they do a full body off restoration of a '40's Ford, for example, that car would fetch WAY more than an original finish '40's Ford needing engine rebuild, new upholstery, etc., etc.! Why are vintage guitars collectors so anal??? If I had the choice between the two, I would take the restored and repaired guitar every time, and especially enjoy the %50 price reduction for a clearly superior product…lol…just makes me laugh!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 In my opinion, this is the very point of view from a collector's sight. As a player I wouldn't get this, too, but at least I could get a very playable vintage guitar at half the price. Not bad at all from a player's attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Original antique value vs. usability is a wavy, moving line. Like you, Wily, I'll take an old J-45 with modifications anyday if it plays and sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSchooner Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 That's the difference between collecting and playing. In collecting original condition is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 We probably need Tom B. to explain to us! I fall into the 'player guitar buyer', but I really wouldn't know the difference because I haven't played the original. From what I have read (on forums), it matters who did the refinish.......wouldn't the too much sanding take away some tone along with the wood? BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I wouldn't dream of trying to explain to anyone WHY I wouldn't be interested in a refinished guitar. I couldn't give a LOGICAL explanation so I guess it's one of those things where "if you have to ask, you'll never understand". And I mean that in the nicest way, not sticking it in anyone's face. I think in my own brain there is a picture of an old guitar with normal wear and tear, and some yahoo slathers Zip Strip all over it and varnishes it with the finest camel hair brush. I get a chill. I love patina. It shows that it's been loved, like an old leather jacket. George Gruhn once said (paraphrased) "The only guitar that should be refinished is one that has already been refinished badly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I love patina. It shows that it's been loved, like an old leather jacket. George Gruhn once said (paraphrased) "The only guitar that should be refinished is one that has already been refinished badly." Ha Ha! That needs to be a poster and framed, KS! Thanks for that line - I have already started spreading it! I think of my old man and the Boss's old man - they both looked at my L-0 and you could see the cogs going, and though they are very, very different people, they both offered to give the Gibson a paint job! Run screaming in horror! Could not for the life of them imagine why anyone would pay 'good money' for that guitar! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyj Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I agree with ksdaddy up to a point, although a refinish isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me if the guitar sounded good enough. If you don't have the highest of incomes accepting issues such as refinishes is often a route into the more desirable vintage pieces that would be beyond my means at their typical value. The guitar market seems to have a double tier, with players who want vintage instruments because they believe them to be the best sounding examples happy to accept modified and repaired instruments and collectors who want the mint in box thing, with the slightest change devaluing the instrument. Of course, those in the former cagegory have to buy with an eye on resale, so they play by the same rules as the collectors and avoid anything that compromises the instrument. There are exceptions - for some a '52 Les Paul converted to a burst with original parts and PAFs would conceivably have the same value as an unmolested original '52 with its P90s and funky tailpiece - but for the most part guitars remain into the antiques and collectables mentality. I suppose a difference between cars and guitars is that we recognise on a guitar that the tone is influenced by numerous subtle things - and if we hold up a vintage guitar as a perfect example of great design, we need to be able to look at finish and top thickness as intended. The more changes, the less we can conclude about the original design. I have an issue or two with the 50% rule when it comes to refinishes. For a start, nobody has told any of the big dealers, since most I see are more like 2/3rds. But also it suggests that all refinishes are equal when they're clearly not. A '30s Gibson or Martin returned to the factory twenty years later for a refinish and with over half a century of patina built up is surely worth a lot more than an amateurishly stripped guitar with a thinned top and brushed on varnish - in fact, the former would be no problem for me and the latter a total deal breaker. Yet, since the advent of internet forums, someone mentions refinish or and there's a queue of experts saying 'that's 50% off then' before there's been any discussion of the nature of the work. The reality is a quality refinish might devalue it by 30-40%, where as a poor refinish that significantly thinned the top might devalue it to the point of being worthless. Same goes for neck breaks whilst we're at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 A very interesting and in some ways, contentious topic... <_< Depending on the instrument IMO there can be logic or no logic in setting a value or selling price for a 'vintage' guitar... A Stradivarius violin would be worth £M's unrestored and £M's restored...probably little difference either way... :blink: A bit like the property market...there are dealers skilled in 'talking up' selling prices related to location and condition For obvious reasons, an unrestored heavily used guitar pre-owned by J Hendrix or P Townsend would have it's own hyped 'value'... Knowing the market is the key There are bargains to be had... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 And just for fun, let's throw in an EXTREME example just to rile the waters. Here we have a late 60s Gretsch Anniversary that, if it were in "average clean for the year" condition might have a tag of $2K. Maybe not even that much, given that it's sunburst and they don't generally bring as much as the two tone green. So obviously this has gone through something horrible, be it a wet cellar, temp extremes, whatever. It's not "Willie Nelson Wear", it's something catastrophic. The tag is $1775. The seller is tapping into the segment of the market who will pay stupid for patina. And someone will buy it. Would I like to own it? Oh you BET I would.... for $800 or less. This is a perfect example of a guitar that would not be worth the money and time to "restore". About the time you paid someone to replicate the sunburst and assuming they did an on-point perfect job, it would then be worth 50-75% of an original one. THIS would be the perfect chance to fulfill some weird fantasy for a Gretsch with the Union Jack painted on it without ruining something that someone wants to put in a glass case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Bill Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 About 33 years ago my then wife was going to get my '59 Strat refinished as a Christmas present. Thank God she couldn't afford to do it. It was sold recently in the condition it was in. What I DON'T get is why someone would pay an outrageous price for a factory aged guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I like old guitars. Not necessarily better than brand new ones, but old ones do have some history and character to them. That said, I don't like old guitars enough to pay thousands for them. I understand the sentimentality, but they're still old guitars. I don't care who owned it or played it while writing whatever song. It's still an old guitar and from my guitar player's perspective it's not as good of a buy as a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phelonious Ponk Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I don't get it either. And I don't get relics. So I don't buy them. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I think OWF has hit on just one of the reasons the vintage and even used guitar markets are so soft these days... 6-7 years ago any POS vintage guitar would sell for thousands and guys would brag about their $20K commissioned custom well know Luthier guitars...well people have now realized a little regarding the value of money and we no longer are impressed with someone shelling our thousands and even tens of thousands on vintage and high end custom small maker guitars. Now when AGF posters brag about spending $10K or $20K on custom or vintage instruments ...these days those guys just look like fools... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Some of my 'player models'... (I have a new version of each and....not one thing the same really!) And most of the vintage rules broken by the guy that owned this (poor thing is still at the luthiers getting its neck ripped around - the neck will have a new fretboard and after playing a bit, all going well, I may get the headstock restored to a black with white Gibson 30s logo - I can do what ever I want with this one!): BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Ha ho ho! Here's something you don't here with the new J45s and D28s and... I try to rotate around my guitars to keep them happy, and I was picking 'Make Me A Pallet On Your Floor' (M John Hurt version) on the black Gibson L50 pictured above and guess what? I got a splinter off the back of the neck! A splinter! Back to it. BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Serves you right for making a pallet on someone else's floor.... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Ha ho ho! Here's something you don't here with the new J45s and D28s and... I try to rotate around my guitars to keep them happy, and I was picking 'Make Me A Pallet On Your Floor' (M John Hurt version) on the black Gibson L50 pictured above and guess what? I got a splinter off the back of the neck! A splinter! Back to it. BluesKing777. Some song lyrics are captious in one or another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Ha ho ho! Here's something you don't here with the new J45s and D28s and... I try to rotate around my guitars to keep them happy, and I was picking 'Make Me A Pallet On Your Floor' (M John Hurt version) on the black Gibson L50 pictured above and guess what? I got a splinter off the back of the neck! A splinter! Back to it. BluesKing777. False alarm, sorry! After a closer inspection of my hand with the old reading glasses ON, it wasn't a splinter injury, but a rough callous cracking and rubbing against a probable capo dent on the back of the (big) V neck! I was also meaning to say I need a vintage Martin to round out the available tones I have with the guitars pictured above! Unfortunately, the old Martins don't fall under the budget - a 00-17 from 1956 I looked at is $3595 US (plus travel). Ha ha ha, I prefer a slightly larger guitar.....whoops, there goes the rubber tree....etc. It doesn't matter, I am enjoying experimenting with these different guitars Immensely! And they are all from my giving up smokes! I have mentioned before that to encourage myself to give up, I promised myself to spend the money saved on guitars, and guitar stuff! Wow! I DID it, but it was incredibly hard....... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 False alarm, sorry! After a closer inspection of my hand with the old reading glasses ON, it wasn't a splinter injury, but a rough callous cracking and rubbing against a probable capo dent on the back of the (big) V neck! I was also meaning to say I need a vintage Martin to round out the available tones I have with the guitars pictured above! Unfortunately, the old Martins don't fall under the budget - a 00-17 from 1956 I looked at is $3595 US (plus travel). Ha ha ha, I prefer a slightly larger guitar.....whoops, there goes the rubber tree....etc. It doesn't matter, I am enjoying experimenting with these different guitars Immensely! And they are all from my giving up smokes! I have mentioned before that to encourage myself to give up, I promised myself to spend the money saved on guitars, and guitar stuff! Wow! I DID it, but it was incredibly hard....... BluesKing777. What was hard - giving up smoking, or spending the saved money on guitars? ;) As for your injury, did you consider it may have been the song lyrics themselves, not the guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 What was hard - giving up smoking, or spending the saved money on guitars? ;) As for your injury, did you consider it may have been the song lyrics themselves, not the guitar? Smoking, CapM! Losing them is easily one of the hardest things I have done - I had a nasty reaction to the nicotine patches too. Waiting for guitar deliveries hasn't been my best behavioural moments! .......but I made it through... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 What I DON'T get is why someone would pay an outrageous price for a factory aged guitar. Guitars are interesting beasts. Utility tool first, or artistic piece first? It can of course depend on the instrument, but for me, it's almost always a complex blend of both worlds. However, to fake wear & tear on a new guitar (in order to give it a vintage look) is something I personally consider a huge turn off. That said, others might very well argue the value of the artistic endeavor, but it doesn't work for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 I once tried to "relic"…so here's what you do……you start from scratch……. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 What I DON'T get is why someone would pay an outrageous price for a factory aged guitar. Amen to that one, brother! If I wanted an aged guitar, just give me a new one and 40 more years to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Smoking, CapM! Losing them is easily one of the hardest things I have done - I had a nasty reaction to the nicotine patches too. Waiting for guitar deliveries hasn't been my best behavioural moments! .......but I made it through... BluesKing777. =D> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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