joevacc Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 I have been meaning to ask the question of difference between the large humbuckers and the mini's here from people that have them. I am having a very serious case of GAS for a Dot. I really want to use it as a guitar to mod the hell out of. I want to add Gibson Classic '57 pickups a new harness, TonePros bridge, etc. My 62/50 is never going anywhere and I would be loathe to change anything further on it. It now has a bone nut, a different bridge and 18:1 tuners but the electronics are bone stock. The biggest question I have is how much of a difference will there be? I have played an ES-335 Pro recently and I did like the difference I heard even though it was subtle. I am wondering if the expense of different electronics will be worth it or will I spend money and not be any better off that with my mini's??? What say ye??
milod Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Joe... I guess I'd say that if it suits you, whatever you do, it tickles me plumb to death. But... Were I to mess with one of my two Dots, it'd be to add an old-style Gretsch set of pups - or even P90s - on one. The other is quite nice enough to stay as it is. In fact, both definitely are for any of the blues, country, old rock or whatever I'm likely to do with a semi. I always figure that an electric guitar actually is at most 1/2 an instrument. That's the actual construction and design as a half, and the electrical stuff the other half. Or, if you count the pots and pups, the actual guitar is a third. So the question is whether your pup settings and the amp in use - and stomp boxes if you're into that - already have been wrung out sufficiently to know all the potentials for whatever music you're doing. I think too that working to get "a sound" heard on a recording is in ways a chase of a holy grail that ain't there. For example, I could give BB King my Dot and amps and he'll bring out tone that sounds just like... BB King. I'll sit with his rig and sound like... me. Frankly I wouldn't have it any other way. m
kidblast Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 well since you did ask for personal opinions (what say ye).. to me,, there are two trails of reasoning here. One is, if it's your aim to find a good one, that plays great, and the fit and finish is top notch, and then take it to the next level with your mods, (and never sell it), then I suppose it's your dough to do what you wish with. There's no arguing the USA made 57s would beat the pants off of the stock pickups and the other updates you mentioned are nothing to sneeze at either. the other is, personally for me anyway, I'd be hesitant to dump the required dollars (just the classic 57 / 57+ alone are about 200 [new] bucks a piece) into a +/- 400 dollar guitar, that I would now have probably double or more into for mods. -- honestly, you'd just get killed on resale value. To most buyers, it's still a Dot, and it seems that most people would probably prefer they were buying one that was stock verses modified. But - I can tell ya a set of classic 57s in a semi hollow body are awesomeness. Tone for days.
joevacc Posted October 17, 2014 Author Posted October 17, 2014 well since you did ask for personal opinions (what say ye).. to me,, there are two trails of reasoning here. One is, if it's your aim to find a good one, that plays great, and the fit and finish is top notch, and then take it to the next level with your mods, (and never sell it), then I suppose it's your dough to do what you wish with. There's no arguing the USA made 57s would beat the pants off of the stock pickups and the other updates you mentioned are nothing to sneeze at either. Yes this is the whole idea indeed. I am so lucky to be the custodian on my 62/50 Sherri because of just that, it is one fine playing guitar and it was right out of the box. I am lucky to have two of the best luthiers around who took that guitar not just to the next level but beyond any other 335 style guitar I've played to date including quite a few Gibson 335's. I am thinking I can patiently play all the Dot's I can get my hands on until I find the "one". You are so right in that the pickups alone will be nearly 4/5's of the the price of the guitar itself. Justifying this has been top of mind for a long time now. I was/am considering several high-end kits. The most likely builder I've found will build the body and finish it so all that would have to be done would be hardware, electronics and final set up. This option will cost over $2000.00 in the end. For that kind of money I could just look at a Gibson. the other is, personally for me anyway, I'd be hesitant to dump the required dollars (just the classic 57 / 57+ alone are about 200 [new] bucks a piece) into a +/- 400 dollar guitar, that I would now have probably double or more into for mods. -- honestly, you'd just get killed on resale value. To most buyers, it's still a Dot, and it seems that most people would probably prefer they were buying one that was stock verses modified. But - I can tell ya a set of classic 57s in a semi hollow body are awesomeness. Tone for days. I am positive you are right here as well… I would plan to keep it but, I do think that a well modded Epi would be much easier to sell than a totally custom guitar. It's a given I would not get back what I have into it. I know this scenario all too well because I have antique cars! Joe... I guess I'd say that if it suits you, whatever you do, it tickles me plumb to death. But... Were I to mess with one of my two Dots, it'd be to add an old-style Gretsch set of pups - or even P90s - on one. The other is quite nice enough to stay as it is. In fact, both definitely are for any of the blues, country, old rock or whatever I'm likely to do with a semi. I always figure that an electric guitar actually is at most 1/2 an instrument. That's the actual construction and design as a half, and the electrical stuff the other half. Or, if you count the pots and pups, the actual guitar is a third. So the question is whether your pup settings and the amp in use - and stomp boxes if you're into that - already have been wrung out sufficiently to know all the potentials for whatever music you're doing. I think too that working to get "a sound" heard on a recording is in ways a chase of a holy grail that ain't there. For example, I could give BB King my Dot and amps and he'll bring out tone that sounds just like... BB King. I'll sit with his rig and sound like... me. Frankly I wouldn't have it any other way. m milod, you never cease to make 'good' sense and I am always eager to read what you have to say! I am finally happy with the direction of "my sound" these days. I have not tried to sound like anyone else since high school! HaHaHAhaha As a matter of fact I have sold most of the gear I had in the past for what makes what I now hear in my head easier to do. I am about to sell ll the rest of my very valuable 'vintage' pedals to finance this idea. I have custom built two pedals that are great for me but even those I only plug in once in a while. You are so right about anyone else's sound - the 'holy grail'! total Unobtainium! ________________ I am studying guitar with a great Jazz player and teacher at the moment and even though I am able to get sounds that I am very pleased with, I do believe that I would not do badly to get a semi with those '57 classics in it!! The question comes down to whether this 'new guitar' will make my life better or will it be only a slight difference to my mini humbuckers? jv
milod Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Joe... There may be a bit of difference. How and how much I don't know. A point on the 335, Gibson or Dot... and your and my playing. I think each of us has a personal geometry, body size, arm length, finger length, etc.; each guitar has a different geometry that affects how the player has options to hold it. The interface of guitar and player geometry is awfully complex, but nevertheless important IMHO in how a given player may find comfort with it, given how he/she plays. For example, I actually got into some emails with EpiJim - the head Epi guy - on the "feel" of the Dot, its scale and its nut width. Bottom line is that it "feels" to me to have a much longer neck/scale than a 175 type body; the strings "feel" much closer together than on the 175 type body. Yet - it's the same scale and nut width. Measure it and it's true. I also have a Gretsch "full hollow archtop jazz guitar" with a 16-inch lower bout and similar body depth, but a 25 1/2 inch scale. To me it's much more challenging to play at the root chord positions than the 24 3/4, regardless that it's not really an inch of difference. That's why to me it's vital for maximum use of one's skills to have an instrument that somehow fits both the player's geometry and how he/she plays. I'd bet that the 175 type/shape adds perhaps 10 percent to my comfort level of playing a given sort of thing that I do. The semis - and some others - are good for an edge of the range of what I do because I'm mostly then playing higher on the neck. 'Stedda the Dot and putting in a lotta cash, have you and your jazz teacher talked about perhaps something like the Epi new 175 copy? Or the similarly-designed Eastman? Obviously a Gibbie would be the ideal for that "type," but it's a lot more pricey. Or an Epi Joe Pass, or a bigger archtop or a longer scale or...??? Since I'm mostly fingerstyle I've even done "Misty" right after "Last Steam Engine Train" on an AE Epi PR5e and make it sound different simply through where and how I place my playing hand. Yet I'd almost be willing to buy a Epi that has a neck with 24 3/4 scale and pay for what it'd cost to swap the neck with the 25 1/2 inch PR5e. It's not always price tag that ensures comfort and an instrument that works for and with you. ???? As I wrote earlier, if it suits you, I'm more than happy for you. m
Dennis G Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 You asked so I'll give you "my history". Bought this Dot 7-8 years ago and played it "stock" for nearly a year. Then I upgraded with SD Classic 57's, Switchraft switch, jack, new harness, etc. The Bigsby was a later add. Yes I more than doubled my $ into the guitar, but I look at it like this - I never intended to sell it anyway, and other than a nitro finish, I basically have a 335 at less than half the price, all things considered. And the difference in sound and tone was very noticeable!
burchster Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 ERNEST TUBB - LEON RHODES and the Texas Troubadou…: The guitar player in this video Mr. Leon Rhodes was a huge part in my love for Sheratons. Mini humbuckers have an awesome bright sound that full sized ones can't match. But I also love darker fuller sound that full sized ones produce. He also used solid state standel amps which equates part of the tone. Epiphones are a great value and a dot would be a great project platform
joevacc Posted October 20, 2014 Author Posted October 20, 2014 Joe... <snip> I think each of us has a personal geometry, body size, arm length, finger length, etc.; each guitar has a different geometry that affects how the player has options to hold it. The interface of guitar and player geometry is awfully complex, but nevertheless important IMHO in how a given player may find comfort with it, given how he/she plays. <snip> 'Stedda the Dot and putting in a lotta cash, have you and your jazz teacher talked about perhaps something like the Epi new 175 copy? Or the similarly-designed Eastman? Obviously a Gibbie would be the ideal for that "type," but it's a lot more pricey. Or an Epi Joe Pass, or a bigger archtop or a longer scale or...??? <snip> ???? As I wrote earlier, if it suits you, I'm more than happy for you. m Yes, this is why the Dot appeals to me. I bought my Sheraton because is was shiny and pretty! Hahaha After I got to really sit down and play I realized that it fit me like a glove. My Martin acoustic had the same effect… I could just play 'better' with these guitars that I could otherwise. As far as a 175 type guitar goes I may someday 'need' one but right now even thought I am studying Jazz my own writing leans toward modern rock and blues so these 335 guitars are really the "be all, end all" guitar for me! They really do all of the genre's in my wheel house perfectly! You asked so I'll give you "my history". Bought this Dot 7-8 years ago and played it "stock" for nearly a year. Then I upgraded with SD Classic 57's, Switchraft switch, jack, new harness, etc. The Bigsby was a later add. Yes I more than doubled my $ into the guitar, but I look at it like this - I never intended to sell it anyway, and other than a nitro finish, I basically have a 335 at less than half the price, all things considered. And the difference in sound and tone was very noticeable! I remember when you first put these pictures up. That guitar is too cool. I would love to hear it! I have been thinking about Seymour Duncan pickups the whole time and the SH-2's in particular. I am going to more studying on his Classic 57's… I have not really given them much consideration yet. Having built a custom Strat and recently rewiring it I am sure that the changes will have a huge effect on the way the modded guitar will sound. Twenty years ago I built that guitar to have a very modern ( '80's, 90's) sound and it did. Because it was my only electric I wanted to get a great verity of sounds out of it. I could easily with the preamp in it get Les Paul sounds as well as Tele and all matter of the pop rock sounds that were around at the time. This rewire was to really get that Strat quack out of the thing. Amazing the effect the wiring harness has. Way more than even I expected. The pickups were not changed! The change was profound. I was able to achieve the exact 'thing' I was going for. ERNEST TUBB - LEON RHODES and the Texas Troubadou…: The guitar player in this video Mr. Leon Rhodes was a huge part in my love for Sheratons. Mini humbuckers have an awesome bright sound that full sized ones can't match. But I also love darker fuller sound that full sized ones produce. He also used solid state standel amps which equates part of the tone. Epiphones are a great value and a dot would be a great project platform Great vid! I have said it here before, I am in a love affair with my mini humbuckers! They are so articulate but also have that 'fatness' that I have to have! This idea I have now is as much a need/want to build something as it is to get some other sounding guitar. Thanks for all the replies so far. I certainly am in the camp that one should get the right tool for the job and not try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. That said, I am an eternal tinkerer and I can not leave well enough alone. This really does seem like the cheapest way to build a custom guitar. If money were not an issue I'd have this: Benedetto Guitar!!!!!!
kidblast Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Hey Joe, where ya going with that pickup-mod in your hand? The Mini Humbucker seem brighter to me, almost more like a p90 without the single coil buzz. I think the classic 57 pairing is about the most versatile for what you're looking for, think you'd love them. if you're not worried about the resale (and seems you are not), they're probably one of the best choices these days.
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