Fake Epi Wood?

[houndman55]

On a earlier thread someone claimed epiphone used nato wood and not real mahogony in their les pauls. Any truth to this?

[Thomse]

On a earlier thread someone claimed epiphone used nato wood and not real mahogony in their les pauls. Any truth to this?

Why wood a company like Gibson do false advertizing. i know they piece and glue the epiphone more then Gibson and i know gibson uses select hard woods and epiphone does not . The Zoot suit Les Paul i have has a lot of layers of wood glued together and thats made by Gibson

[Barcham]

On a earlier thread someone claimed epiphone used nato wood and not real mahogony in their les pauls. Any truth to this?

 

 

There are a number of different woods that fall under the term 'mahogany' and Epi has probably used most of them to make guitars over the years.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany

 

What is used in a Gibson LP is not what is used to make Epiphones. There are a number of reasons why you can purchase an Epi Standard for under $400 brand new and why a Gibson costs around $3000. The cost and quality of the wood is one of them.

[wiggy]

On a earlier thread someone claimed epiphone used nato wood and not real mahogony in their les pauls. Any truth to this?

 

Yep, well at least 1 does because my Les Paul has a Nato body and neck. Looks lovely and sounds lovely too.

[capmaster]

Please refer to this post:

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/35543-gibson-les-paul-vs-epiphone-les-paul/page__view__findpost__p__500413

 

Besides my Epiphone Les Paul 1960 Tribute, I own two more guitars using nato. It is a little lighter than mahogany, but there's little impact on tone. Hadn't DNA research done up to now though.

 

I don't know about other countries, but selling nato as mahogany is prohibited by law here in Germany. Anyway, I don't care and never considered sueing a guitar maker or distributor as long as the thing plays and sounds well. B)

[wiggy]

... I don't know about other countries, but selling nato as mahogany is prohibited by law here in Germany....

 

Don't know how strict the laws are in Germany as to what can be called Mahogany but if they insist that anything advertised as such has to be 'true' mahogany (i.e. of the genus Swietenia) then not a single Epiphone is going to be legal there along with a huge amount of modern furniture and flooring.

Actually, on the basis that Nato can be described as mahogany here in the UK (along with alarge number of other woods which are not of genus Swietenia) and rules are harmonised across the EU, I'd imagine it was also legal in Germany as well.

[capmaster]

Carpenters are not allowed to sell anything else than Swietenia as mahogany here. You may sue them for fraud.

[Jeffery Smith]

Not to hijack this thread, but I have read that some guitars have a photograph of wood capping the front of the guitar. Have any of you seen this truly "fake" wood on a guitar?

[RMoss]

Seems like that would cost more than the actual wood.

[BobF_]

There is musimaker spin-off out there now with a foto-finish -

 

"The S.U.B. Series version uses a solid hardwood body topped with a bound quilt maple image top."

 

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Sterling-by-Music-Man-AX3-Electric-Guitar-J07403-i3652466.gc

[jonnyg]

Not to hijack this thread, but I have read that some guitars have a photograph of wood capping the front of the guitar. Have any of you seen this truly "fake" wood on a guitar?

Not only seen, Jeffery, but actually once owned. The guitar was a MIJ Telecaster with a 'Photo Flame' finish and very good it looked too. Looked good, played good and sounded like ****. Worst Telecaster I ever owned, and I only owned it because a friend needed cash in a hurry. I'm not a wood snob but I think they were made of basswood. I haven't had good experiences with basswood as it seems to be lacking in high end frequency, has little sustain and dents even if you look at it hard. Other opinions are available of course, and I expect there are various qualities of basswood, but I avoid it where possible. But looks wise, stunning and easily repeatable because they only ever have to find one piece of stunning flamed wood to photograph.

[rct]

Fender Foto Flames wer awful. It didn't last long because it was actually very expensive, in the context of guitar margins, too expensive to keep it up. Thank goodness.

 

rct

[crust]

saw dust and Elmers glue, mixed into a "pastey mixture" and then "set" into a guitar shaped "mould"...Ya, that's how Epiphone guitar "solid" bodies are made....lol

[wiggy]

Carpenters are not allowed to sell anything else than Swietenia as mahogany here. You may sue them for fraud.

 

Genuine question.

 

How is it legal then to sell Epiphones (along with guitars by a number of other manufacturers) in Germany as the bodies, whilst advertised as mahogany, are certainly not manufactured from anything from the genus Swietenia?

[crust]

I had an "Hondo II" Stratocaster with "Photoflame", was OK, sold it...It wasn't an Epiphone...lol

[capmaster]

Genuine question.

 

How is it legal then to sell Epiphones (along with guitars by a number of other manufacturers) in Germany as the bodies, whilst advertised as mahogany, are certainly not manufactured from anything from the genus Swietenia?

Probably it's a juristic subtleness. Material listed on an invoice strictly has to be as named or described. In case of an entire product sold without listing ingredients on the invoice, they are not considered as affirmed properties. Sueing a vendor for differences between advertisement and reality is a losing game in most cases.

 

Think of all the current compatibility problems with software released prematurely. The best way to learn about gaps between advertisement and reality is reading reviews. Sadly, advertised does not automatically mean affirmed according to substantive contract law.

[capmaster]

This invoice clearly says Mahagoni meaning Mahogany from Swietenia species by law here:

 

 

Perhaps it's time for having some research on the DNA of timbers done. However, they also omitted that the Grover auto-locking Rotomatics are chrome-plated.

 

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with nato. It is a nice tonewood indeed, and I wouldn't even say inferior, just different.

[wiggy]

If it is genuinely Swietinia then that is awesome and sticks two fingers up at those who say Epiphones are made from inferior wood to Gibsons. (Having said that it might just be limited to certain 'high end' models such as the Tribute.)

 

There's actually no reason why Gibson couldn't use Swietinia for Epiphone guitars other than marketing differentiation as, when you take into account the volume they buy, cost isn't going to be an issue and none of the stuff they buy will be at the high end (large planks for furniture will be way more expensive)

 

Does Swietinia sound any better than Nato? Not in my hands it doesn't unfortunately

 

In all seriousness though Nato seems to be slightly more focussed at the top and bottom of the spectrum when compared to Honduran Mahogany but seems to lack a little bite in the mids which means that both pickup and polepiece adjustment is critical. Get it right and the guitar will sing like a burst, get it even fractionally wrong and it will drive and icepick through you brain before burying you in the mud .

 

 

 

 

 

[capmaster]

...

In all seriousness though Nato seems to be slightly more focussed at the top and bottom of the spectrum when compared to Honduran Mahogany but seems to lack a little bite in the mids which means that both pickup and polepiece adjustment is critical. Get it right and the guitar will sing like a burst, get it even fractionally wrong and it will drive and icepick through you brain before burying you in the mud .

Can fully confirm this, including that it's just 'a little bit' in the mids. On my Epi Tribute LP, the tone of the Gibson '57/'57 Plus is that precisely shifted by the timbers towards my Gibson Standard 2012 with BurstBucker Pros that I can't discern recordings of them both in a double blind test conducted by my son.

[euro]

There is very little, if any, Honduran mahogany used today in Gibsons. It may be some south american variety, but Honduran mahogany, I believe, is on an endangered list, or is stopped by some laws from being harvested and brought into the USA at this time.

 

The name "Honduran mahogany" and "mahogany" is thrown around carelessly in advertising by some companies.

 

This does not mean that other varieties of a "similar" wood are no good for guitar building. However, after all the years of specific woods having been harvested and used for building instruments, many assume, incorrectly, that no other types of wood are any good for building guitars.

 

One thing might be noted and that is that Gibson cannot buy all of the best grades of wood for their usage. The cost is prohibitive. they by slected grades and use it in specifically priced guitars leading up to the Reissue historic lines, which all get the best woods Gibson has that year.

 

This is actually the first time I have seen Gibson's website talk about the grading of the woods used on specific models in their lineup. They break down the grsdes of wood and the wood's sonic properties used in each type of model Les Paul and other guitars on their website for 2015. If it had been on there previously, I was not aware of it.

 

 

Whether Nato, as a building wood, is not as good as another type of wood is one thing, but Epiphones use multiple layers of different body wood in some of their guitars, so the outer pieces of wood that are visable may not be the singular reason why the guitar does not sound as one would desire.

 

If a guitar was built out of a solid, single piece of Nato for the body, and a solid piece for the neck with a maple top as thick as a Gibson LP then added to that Nato, the guitar may sound really good, and be accepted for a more respected tone wood. However, I feel the cost would be higher then most players would accept for an Epiphone. Too bad that the Elitist type quality Epiphones were not built in more numbers for the models Epiphone offers in it's line and built in China along side the regular lines. If the factory can produce good guitars, then it is only the amount and type of wood used in the construction that prohibits the Epiphones from rising into more direct competition with Gibson.

[rct]

It's just money. Nobody squints hard and rubs their chin while selecting "tonewoods" to make guitars out of, nobody at the product development at x price point level cares what it sounds like or what is used to make it. In America, they simply broaden the definition of "mahogany" such that today, whatever they call mahogany is mahogany. Someday they'll get it all the way out to 2x4s from home depot, they'll be mahogany too. The cheapest wood they can get that they can legitimately call mahogany is what they will use, all the while participating in determining what it is that is called mahogany. Same as it ever was.

 

rct

[Barcham]

Whether Nato, as a building wood, is not as good as another type of wood is one

thing, but Epiphones use multiple layers of different body wood in some of their

guitars, so the outer pieces of wood that are visable may not be the singular

reason why the guitar does not sound as one would desire.

 

 

 

The above statement is 100% FALSE. No Epiphone guitar is made of layered wood. The only models that may be made of what is properly called 'laminate' would be the lowest end of the line with bolt on necks, and the double neck 1275. If you purchase any set neck Les Paul or SG, you have a true solid body guitar. Even more so than a Gibson as Epis are not weight relieved, other than the Ultra series LP which is chambered by design.

[Ed Zeplin]

The above statement is 100% FALSE. No Epiphone guitar is made of layered wood. The only models that may be made of what is properly called 'laminate' would be the lowest end of the line with bolt on necks, and the double neck 1275. If you purchase any set neck Les Paul or SG, you have a true solid body guitar. Even more so than a Gibson as Epis are not weight relieved, other than the Ultra series LP which is chambered by design.

 

That depends whether you consider veneers to be layers.

 

They use veneers on top and bottom so who knows what is in the middle. Epiphone used luan in guitars before which a former member here said was another species of mahogany.

[wiggy]

There is very little, if any, Honduran mahogany used today in Gibsons. It may be some south american variety, but Honduran mahogany, I believe, is on an endangered list, or is stopped by some laws from being harvested and brought into the USA at this time.

 

The name "Honduran mahogany" and "mahogany" is thrown around carelessly in advertising by some companies.

 

 

Whether Nato, as a building wood, is not as good as another type of wood is one thing, but Epiphones use multiple layers of different body wood in some of their guitars, so the outer pieces of wood that are visable may not be the singular reason why the guitar does not sound as one would desire.

 

If a guitar was built out of a solid, single piece of Nato for the body, and a solid piece for the neck with a maple top as thick as a Gibson LP then added to that Nato, the guitar may sound really good, and be accepted for a more respected tone wood. However, I feel the cost would be higher then most players would accept for an Epiphone. Too bad that the Elitist type quality Epiphones were not built in more numbers for the models Epiphone offers in it's line and built in China along side the regular lines. If the factory can produce good guitars, then it is only the amount and type of wood used in the construction that prohibits the Epiphones from rising into more direct competition with Gibson.

 

To answer these two specific points.

 

Firstly Honduras (as it is actually correctly designated rather than the incorrect misdesignation as Honduran) Mahogany (S. Macrophylla) has been mostly sourced from renewable plantations in Fiji which were laid down many years ago for a long time now. In terms of both grain and mechanical properties it is to all intents indistinguishable from S. Macrophylla sourced from South America. S. Macrophylla as a species is neither rare, expensive or in lumbar terms particularly special and the volume used by Gibson and the rest of the guitar makes is a minute percentage of legally felled wood.

Secondly, I can state categorically that the body of my Epiphone LP is made from two solid pieces of Nato (offset jointed) capped with a centre jointed 1/2" maple cap (joint can be seen clearly in the pickup cavities) with an 1/8" flame maple veneer on the top and an 1/8" Honduras mahogany veneer on the back. The neck is a one piece Nato construction with scarf jointed headstock (jointed between nut and middle tuners) and a two piece stacked heel.

[byrds1965]

This was discussed many times on the old forum.

 

Epiphone LPs or anything Mahogany are not made of the same materials the Gibson's are.

 

In the old "Ask Henry" forum he even broke it down in a posting for everyone.

 

When you buy and Epiphone you get a good quality guitar but an Epiphone LP, SG etc will never be made of the same materials as the Gibson counterpart.

 

The Hollow bodies being laminated Maple construction will be the guitars closest construction and materials to their Gibson cousins.

 

My Gibson LP vs my Epiphone LP both with 57s from the factory, the Gibson just has more "sing" to it. Brush the strings and it resonates.

 

I can't say if it is the Poly vs Nitro and my Epiphone LP is a great Epiphone and very pleased for what I paid for it.

 

My Gibson LP, however, is not only a great Gibson but a great guitar period.