What is this ?

[JuanCarlosVejar]

Folks,

 

I'm scratching my head here :

Only thing im sure of it's of 1962 vintage

 

 

I have to say it's nice looking whatever it is

 

 

JC

[Jayyj]

Weird, never seen anything like this before. The headstock looks like a '62 Texan, but I can't find any reference to a J160e style version of the Texan. It'd be interesting to know if it has a laminated top. Perhaps an Epiphone dealer convinced Gibson to make a batch of J160s with the Epi branding?

[fp]

Funny to see the Epiphone name and inlay on the Gibson shaped headstock !

[DenverSteve]

That's an Epiphone J-160E. John Lennon played the Gibson version to fame. There is a modern reproduction - EJ-160E.

 

EDITED

[JuanCarlosVejar]

That's an Epiphone J-160E. John Lennon played one to fame. There is a modern reproduction - EJ-160E.

Steve ,

 

The one Lennon played was a Gibson and as far as I knew only Gibson made the J160e back in the 60's but there was never an Epi version to my knowledge .I googled vintage Epiphone J160e and came up empty handed

 

 

 

 

 

JC

[DenverSteve]

Steve ,

 

The one Lennon played was a Gibson and as far as I knew only Gibson made the J160e back in the 60's but there was never an Epi version to my knowledge . JC

 

Only someone very young assumes that the internet has all the answers.

[bobouz]

That's an Epiphone J-160E. John Lennon played one to fame.

There was no such beast as an Epiphone J-160E.

 

The label on this guitar says Epiphone FT-79 Texan.

The label looks legit, but it is clearly not a Texan.

 

What it is, is a Gibson J-160E with the following changes:

Headstock logo, inlay, truss rod cover, and that's all.

 

Most likely special ordered by an Epiphone dealer,

the changes stylistically are consistent with the '62 serial number.

 

Because there was no Epiphone equivalent to the J-160E,

the shortest route was to make those simple changes,

slap an Epi label on it, and now the Epi dealer could sell it.

 

Very cool, imho!

[DenverSteve]

There were many Gibson models made with the Epiphone label "unofficially" to appease dealers who wanted Gibson guitars but either couldn't qualify for the Gibson dealership. Look at how many "unofficial" Gibson models are made today (for the J-45 alone) for either dealers or special runs. An Epiphone "copy" of a Gibson J-160 is an Epiphone J-160 or you can call it what you like. It was not an official production guitar and it's not a "Texan".

[zombywoof]

I can't explain this guitar and would not even try. I don't buy the being built to "appease" a music store thing. Today maybe but back then not so likely. Perhaps it was made and given to one of Gibson's sales rep's. I recently ran across a mid-1960s Gretsch Country Club with a factory white finish which is the only one known to exist and which turned out to have been built and given to one of that company's sales people who took it with him on the road. The4 guitar, however, never went into production with that finish.

 

Bottom line though is there is not sufficient information or photos to make any kind of a judgment. That style of tulip buttons, as example, is different from what you would find on Gibson until the very end of the decade.But they, of course, could be replacements.

[bobouz]

There was no such beast as an Epiphone J-160E.

 

The label on this guitar says Epiphone FT-79 Texan.

The label looks legit, but it is clearly not a Texan.

 

What it is, is a Gibson J-160E with the following changes:

Headstock logo, inlay, truss rod cover, and that's all.

 

Most likely special ordered by an Epiphone dealer,

the changes stylistically are consistent with the '62 serial number.

 

Because there was no Epiphone equivalent to the J-160E,

the shortest route was to make those simple changes,

slap an Epi label on it, and now the Epi dealer could sell it.

My supposition above is one I would consider to be quite plausible, and food for thought. Do I know it for a fact? Of course not. But in the '60s, Gibson's Epiphone dealers did not carry Gibsons. Gibson built the Epi dealer network to create a bit of false competition, expand model options, and sell more guitars. Gibson and Epi dealers could operate in the same territory, but could not carry each other's line.

 

Let's say a very good long time customer comes into your Epi dealership and just loves Gibson's J-160E. He hates the snobbish Gibson dealer in town, and wants to buy his guitars only from you. If you and Gibson want to sell another guitar, what's the easiest solution?

 

A few simple headstock mods, and it's done.

[JuanCarlosVejar]

My supposition above is one I would consider to be quite plausible, and food for thought. Do I know it for a fact? Of course not. But in the '60s, Gibson's Epiphone dealers did not carry Gibsons. Gibson built the Epi dealer network to create a bit of false competition, expand model options, and sell more guitars. Gibson and Epi dealers could operate in the same territory, but could not carry each other's line.

 

Let's say a very good long time customer comes into your Epi dealership and just loves Gibson's J-160E. He hates the snobbish Gibson dealer in town, and wants to buy his guitars only from you. If you and Gibson want to sell another guitar, what's the easiest solution?

 

A few simple headstock mods, and it's done.

I believe this also.

They were a lot more flexible back then .

This is a guitar I would have ordered if I was a young guy in the 60's

 

Thanks for the theory. Even if it can't be confirmed it sounds plausible as you have said

 

 

 

 

 

JC

[bobouz]

In a thread like this, we're all theorizing for fun (I hope),

and some theories are bound to be more based in fact than others.

[Hogeye]

Lots of very amusing speculation here. I wonder how any of us would explain the 15th fret neck-set?

[zombywoof]

Problem with this theory is that while part of the marketing strategy on Epi was to get them in the hands of stores that did not carry Gibson, stores could carry both. Manny's in NYC, as example, carried both Gibson and Epiphone. I know as a friend of mine bought his Epi Bard there sometime in the mid-1960s.

[bobouz]

Lots of very amusing speculation here. I wonder how any of us would explain the 15th fret neck-set?

15 frets clear of the body was standard on the J-160E.

[bobouz]

Problem with this theory is that while part of the marketing strategy on Epi was to get them in the hands of stores that did not carry Gibson, stores could carry both. Manny's in NYC, as example, carried both Gibson and Epiphone. I know as a friend of mine bought his Epi Bard there sometime in the mid-1960s.

I've clearly read about Gibson wanting to protect the "exclusivity" of their dealerships during that era, and I do believe what you're saying, but we'd need to be looking specifically at 1962. Now it could be that some dealers in some areas carried both lines, while smaller markets/regions may have been set up differently. Or possibly a dealer chose only to carry the Epiphone line due to the expense of carrying both lines, especially in very small towns across the country. Perhaps someone will chime in with more detailed info re dealer arrangements and special orders at that time.

 

Again, it's just a theory as to how this guitar came to be ordered & built,

and I would love to know the true story!

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Hello Juan.

 

Thank you for your many valued positive contributions to this Fora.

 

The key to understanding this Guitar is the Fingerboard which is extremely reminiscent of that of a Les Paul.

 

The reason for this is because the Instrument was originally Designed for Les Paul, it was an Acoustic Les Paul Model, but Les Paul didn't like the sound it, and wouldn't have his name on the Guitar.

 

The problem was this Guitar, (as Played by Les Paul, who was used to Comparatively Loud, Solid Body Guitars), was Highly Susceptible to Feedback at the Volumes he Played, because of its Solid Top; and with its Magnetic Pickup sounded like an Electric Guitar rather than anything like an Acoustic Guitar.

 

As far as its Acoustic Credentials goes, with Ladder Bracing and the Metal Parts included in its Adjustable Bridge, it didn't have much to offer in the Acoustical Guitar Dept., either! Although this Vintage Year should have smaller Bridge Screws than previous offerings. From a Luthiers point of view, ADDING MASS to an Acoustic Guitar Bridge intended to Lever Sound Projection, is a Complete Tone Killer.

 

So as Les Paul would have understood Guitars, the worst of both worlds, and he refused to endorse the Model. Gibson already knew the Instrument had its problems, so needed make it acceptable to be bought off by Les Paul. Following the negative response and advice they got from that meeting however, they knew they needed to make more Drastic Changes. The way Gibson made Guitars, was not to simply make Guitars, they would Fabricate Guitar Parts in Batches, according to Orders or Expected Sales Projections, particularly for New Models. Then these Parts would be made into Guitars.

 

This week we are going to build X Amount of this Model. Next week we will build Y and Z amounts of that and another Model, and so on. An old colleague in the Music Business, Jim Marshall, would organise his Amplifier Construction in much the same manner. This week we will build all the S Amplifier Production to fulfil all the Production and Stock needed for that Model for that Entire Year and so on for all the Models he Manufactured. It is simply, under the then existing Manufacturing Methodologies, the most Practical, Efficient, and Cost Effective Way to make the Product.

 

As far as Gibson and Epiphone go, this Manufacturing of so many Necks this week of this Model, and having Batches of Parts in Areas, awaiting Final Building, explains how some Designs of Guitar actually came into being. They were simply a way to use Leftover Batches of Parts, and became a "New Model". But it also happened as a way to use up, Odd Leftover Parts. I think this is an explanation for the Epiphone "Les Paul Acoustic", intended to be a "Gibson". Although. Manufacturing a Range of Brands and Models both Acoustic, Hollow and Spanish Electric and Solid Body Electric, in a comparatively untidy Factory as the Parsons St. Factory was. A Single Odd Neck, could easily have been placed with the Wrong Batch of Necks, perhaps by someone inexperienced tidying up, and subsequently picked up and used by mistake. After the Distinctive Fingerboard was Fitted, the Workers probably simply got the Instrument out of the door as quickly as possible, without anyone noticing. This does seem to happen.

 

Realising the extent of the problems the meeting with Les Paul would have thrown up from a Professional, Performance, Perspective. But initially seeing that endorsement as a formality and probably having all the parts already Manufactured, and simply awaiting, Final Signing Off. The first years Production of the Gibson 160e was similar to the Solid Top Prototype originally shown to Les Paul. But to reduce the high susceptibility to feedback, and therefore hopefully finally persuade Les Paul to endorse, what the Marketing Dept. called "The Les Paul Flattop" the brilliant idea to boost Acoustic Sales, they changed the Top from a Solid Wood Top to a Three Ply Top and the Back as well.

 

But Les Paul still didn't see himself as a Flattop Guitarist, or like the Acoustic or Electric Sound and had a Good Idea already of what that Good Sound should be like for both Instruments. Gibson's earlier CF-100 Cutaway was a better Acoustic Electric than the 160e, although the Guitar was well ahead, too far ahead of its time, as apart from a few Great Guitarists, they are mainly Super Conservative. So from his (Les Pauls) point of view, as a great Innovator and Improver, they were going backward, although trying hard to Sell the Concept to him, but he wouldn't buy it.

 

Even Today, with Big Name Guitar Manufacturers, people are often surprised, that for instance, the Machinehead Specs are not as they expected. They don't have the Guitar Manufactures Name Printed on them, or they do have it Printed, or they are a completely different Brand of Machinehead altogether. In these instances, the Factory simply used the Parts they had Available, at the Time they needed to be Fitted in the Overall Process.

 

It's possible it was especially Made to Order for a Dealer, not able to sell Gibson, for a Customer wanting to own an Acoustic Electric. But I would have expected some Genuine Provenance to Accompany such a Rarity and a One Off made to Order, for a Customer Quite Deliberately after all this time.

 

For it would obviously have some considerable worth, and would have been unlikely to be quickly passed on, in that circumstance, without some attempt to add verisimilitude to its authenticity.

 

"Non standard" Product, is far more likely to just turn up as this Instrument without anyone knowing anything about it, as this one has done.

 

 

 

 

It's important to remember, that originally.

 

Epiphone's were High Class Instruments, and took the fight to Gibson with Archtop Guitars.

 

Once again we see the hand of Guitarist Les Paul, as he actually advised Ted McCarty to approach Epiphone, with a view to Purchasing the Company.

 

After some considerable reflection, McCarty's Strategy was to use Epiphone's as a Patherfinder Brand, to "Light the Way" and Highlight Prospective New Dealers for the Gibson Brand.

 

These New Dealers would get a Gibson Parsons St. High Quality Product but not Upset or Steal Substantive Sales from its Existing Gibson Dealerships. Many Players preferred the Epiphone's anyway over Gibson's because of their Existing Good Reputation and Slim, Fast Necks. Their Factory had always made a Number of Brands. What better way to Keep the Factory Busy?

 

 

 

 

Quote: "That style of tulip buttons, as example, is different from what you would find on Gibson until the very end of the decade. But they, of course, could be replacements."

 

 

 

 

Gibson had made Acoustic Upright Violin Basses for many, many years and were eventually followed in this by Epiphone.

 

But after Pearl Harbour, Guitar Manufacturers were great affected by the War Effort. Epiphone made Aircraft Parts like Ailerons.

 

Following WWII, during which Epi passed away, with his younger brothers taking over the Company, the fight with Gibson was apace once more.

 

But Gibson left a Hole in their Instrument Catalogue by failing to resume to make Violin Basses, and we could conjecture the reason was their 1938 Electric Bass.

 

http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrings/Guitars/Gibson/10474/GibsonUprightBass.html

 

 

 

Irrespective, the 1946 Epiphone Catalogue showed a "Pride" of Upright Basses, providing Product that the Direct Competition was not Manufacturing. It seemed a Winning Idea.

 

Therefore, after taking over Epiphone, Ted McCarthy's first "Idea", for Epiphone, soon, hugely expanded upon, after some considerable thought, was to make the Renowned Rivoli, Semi-Acoustic, Epiphone Basses, used by many Professional Players, for which most of the Tooling Existed, and the Production Expertise too.

 

The Banjo Tuner equipped Rivoli, Epiphone Bass already used this Form of Tulip on its Headstock. So was an existing Instrument Design, apart from a few minor details. An early, easy to duplicate and fabricate Form of Headstock Decoration and a readymade Distinguishing Feature, to Delineate and Distance the Line from its other Gibson Counterparts.

 

 

 

 

Quote: "John Lennon played one"

 

 

 

 

With respect.

 

I'm unsure of which John Lennon you are referring too?

 

But this wasn't the case for the John Lennon from Liverpool, that Played with the British Group "The Beatles".

 

The little known Group, whom Brian Epstein asked, my Hit Session Drummer friend, Bobby Graham to join as Drummer, to replace Pete Best on his visit to The Cavern Club.

 

Bob, who I knew well and worked with on a lot of different Tours, Recordings, Musicals, Films, and Projects. Played on many of my Productions and those of many notable others.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Graham

 

 

 

Here's Songwriter and Artist Ray Davies.

 

 

 

 

 

Although Brian Epstein was a man with a Persuasive Elegance, Grace and Charm.

 

Very personable indeed in many ways, he couldn't persuade my Pal to join the Group, something Bob had to live with for the rest of his Life, along from the Reminders from me about that.

 

Ringo from Liverpool, was a better fit anyway being from the same Region. A little later, both George Harrison (another member of The Beatles) and John Lennon placed a Special Order for two Gibson 160e Acoustic Electrics, with Manager Bob Hobbs of "Rushmore's Music House" in Liverpool.

 

Countersigning for them, Brian Epstein, who was brilliant at persuading Music Dealers to Supply Badly Needed, New Product to his Artists, they couldn't possibly afford, Preferentially in Liverpool and London, he eventually had to pay for them, a considerable time later, probably a year or more after they had them.

 

By the time he did, John Lennon's Guitar had been stolen. However, because their Guitars had gotten mixed up, the Instrument that actually was registered to George Harrison, but which was the one John used, was the one that was actually Stolen. Because John Lennon was really responsible for it, he ordered a Replacement for it the following year, but a 160e with a Natural Top.

 

He later modified it in many respects, not the least of which was removing the Pickup. Later it was Re-Finished, and again later Re-Stripped to Natural.

 

Here's Sir Paul McCartney and the Drummer that eventually got the job, Ringo Starr at the Royal Albert Hall.

 

[BigKahune]

.

All the info and history of the Gibson 160E notwithstanding, the question about this particular example is - despite what the non-matching interior label says, what are Epiphone headstock logos doing on a Gibson headstock/guitar?

 

 

.

[Jayyj]

The headstock is correct for a 1962 Texan, it's not the same as a Gibson headstock. The more familiar hourglass headstock came a little later. On the other hand, it can't be an Epi Texan neck mistakenly joined to a J160e body because the body join is at the 15th fret, so this Epiphone neck was intentionally made for the J160 body.

 

The suggestions that this was a custom order for an Epi dealer, or possibly a mockup of a potential new Epiphone model made for a sales rep to show to dealers, ring truest to me.

[DenverSteve]

With respect. I'm unsure of which John Lennon you are referring too.

 

None needed. If you look back you'll see that mis-statement was edited long before your post.

[Red 333]

The headstock is correct for a 1962 Texan, it's not the same as a Gibson headstock. The more familiar hourglass headstock came a little later. On the other hand, it can't be an Epi Texan neck mistakenly joined to a J160e body because the body join is at the 15th fret, so this Epiphone neck was intentionally made for the J160 body.

 

The suggestions that this was a custom order for an Epi dealer, or possibly a mockup of a potential new Epiphone model made for a sales rep to show to dealers, ring truest to me.

 

The Epiphone headstock, while similar to the Gibson shape in 1962, and not yet evolved into the paddle shape it became, was higher at the center. The guitar above has a Gibson headstock, it seems to me.

 

Also, I think it also makes more sense, given the unique 15-fret design of the J-160E neck, that Gibson would use an existing, stock neck, and just have to use a new logo inlay, center inlay, headstock veneer, rather than make a custom neck to accommodate the extra wood required for the top of the 1962-era Epi headstock.

 

Whatever the reason this hybrid was produced, it sure is cool. Where do the pictures come from JCV?

 

Red 333

[JuanCarlosVejar]

The Epiphone headstock, while similar to the Gibson shape in 1962, and not yet evolved into the paddle shape it became, was higher at the center. The guitar above has a Gibson headstock, it seems to me.

 

Also, I think it also makes more sense, given the unique 15-fret design of the J-160E neck, that Gibson would use an existing, stock neck, and just have to use a new logo inlay, center inlay, headstock veneer, rather than make a custom neck to accommodate the extra wood required for the top of the 1962-era Epi headstock.

 

Whatever the reason this hybrid was produced, it sure is cool. Where do the pictures come from JCV?

 

Red 333

Instagram. A guy said he was at a guitar center and Joe Bonamassa pointed the guitar out to him

 

 

 

 

JC

[Red 333]

Instagram. A guy said he was at a guitar center and Joe Bonamassa pointed the guitar out to him

 

 

 

 

JC

 

Thanks, JC!

 

Red 333

[Gralst]

<clears throat> ...I am a simple man of simple intellectual means...I could never suppose to come up with anything as creative and inventive as I've read in this thread but....How about this...aside from the head stock logo and medallion and interior label every other feature points to it being a Gibson J-160E...The head stock isn't the correct shape for a '62 Epiphone but the holly overlays for a FT-79 are available (I happen to currently have one bought for a repair job that was never done)and coming up with an Epiphone label from the period is no big feat. I cannot give any motivation for doing something like this but it goes without saying that I was entertained beyond all expectations at some of the speculation and theories presented here. I have seen other examples of this "cross-breeding" such as a Riviera with a factory stock stop tail routed for full-sized humbuckers but I'm nearly completely certain this is a Gibson J-160E with an Epiphone head stock overlay and an Epiphone label...but even so...the little stories have been fabulous...

[bobouz]

but I'm nearly completely certain this is a Gibson J-160E with an Epiphone head stock overlay and an Epiphone label

No argument here, since this is exactly what I referred to in post #7.