Election results (Senate 2014)

[surfpup]

Honestly, I think the world is going to Hades in a handbasket, but I blame population trends far more than politics.

 

The Idiocracy cometh...

 

[zigzag]

I get what Mr. Friedman is saying, even though I don't have to know how to make steel or how to mine graphite to make a pencil. Somebody else already did that for me. The fallacy, as I see it, in his perspective is that the symbiotic relationship that exists between producer (seller) and consumer assumes that the consumer also has something of value that someone else wants. The reason that pure capitalism can't work is because not everyone in the system has something of value that someone else wants, or has enough of it to subsist independently, especially in areas where there are many people in the same boat. Friedman also sees the capitalist system as being fair, and in principle, it is. A free market system is fair if it isn't abused and it exists with ethics. And while capitalism allows freedom for the individual, it requires a cooperative effort within a group and an interdependence, not only within a company, but also within a community.

 

Also, capitalism promotes and depends on materialism, on not only satisfying needs, but also, wants. It has distorted our system of values and turned us in a covetous, money-loving, money-grubbing, misguided society. Not a day goes by when I don't, at some point, consider whether I have the money I need to either get through the day or the rest of my life. It is the source of stress for individuals, businesses, and countries.

 

The problem I have with capitalism is not the system, it is what it has become. When corporations define who we are as individuals and as a culture, when they control our core values, control our politics, and have the power to enculturate the entire world and oppress whole populations, that is earth shattering. I may not agree with or even like Islam, but I understand what motivates them.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jadvt7CbH1o

[rct]

Government shutdowns are incredibly rare

 

No, they aren't. They have become commonplace, for more reasons than just The Orange Guy wants to mess with The Black Guy. They are the ones you hear about, the ones the media decides they will run with. The more complex ones, the ones that have smoething to do with the hard work of figuring budgets and taxing and stuff like that, you don't hear about them. When they opted to not collect certain airport fees in 2010, in order to show The Black Guy who is boss, they put about a thousand people here, and I don't know how many more across the country, out of work, with no pay, for six weeks. But you didn't hear about that, because it wasn't sexy and exciting, wasn't full of flashbubs and soundbytes. That's just one.

 

and just are not anything I'm gonna worry myself with.

 

Ok. When guys like me can't buy stuff, you might start worrying.

 

As for apathy, trust me I vote every single election. But I refused to throw my vote away on Republicans or Democrats and pretend there's some sort of major difference between the two.

 

I don't recall calling anyone apathetic or saying anything about apathy.

 

Now.. Lemon or cocanut?

 

You can't engage in political discourse while encouraging eveyone else to not engage in political discourse.

 

rct

[Golden]

Democrats forgot to add one important achievement................

Since Obama took office, 13 million more Americans have become dependent on food stamps, with the numbers now hitting a record 47 million — about a third more than when he was sworn in. In 2007, there were 26 million recipients. Spending on the scheme has more than doubled just since 2008. The explosion of the program, along with other welfare schemes, has resulted in countless commentators and critics labeling Obama “the Food Stamp President.”

 

 

And from there it McDonalds, medication for depression, or the new home where 1/3 of the worlds prison population live. Yes Obama is doing wonderful representing the minorities. He'll even allow them to buy marijuana from him long as he profits? Will he allow you to grow your own? No thats not going to happen. The actual cost of living plays a major role in quality of life, and raising minimum wage means the minorities he supposedly looks out for will work? I imagine they will be the first to hired? Right, I don't think so. Equal rights? What about the unborn? What a double standard.

 

Koch? Who do you think backs Obama and what do you suppose their agenda is? The fact is 2/3s of the USA didn't vote because they believe WASHINGTON DC is CORRUPT!!!!!

 

I would just suggest also everyone who voted for the Republicans are not only Republicans, they are Democrats who like rats have enough sense to jump off a sinking ship.

 

Its not about Democrats or Republicans, its about "US". Be it the narrow minded grasp that or not. Largest change since WW-II and Mr Ignorant will continue to be, well true to his corrupt agenda.

 

Oh btw he claims to be a civil rights leader and fashions himself in the likes of King, google Alveda King and see what she has to say about Dr King and Obama?

 

I know Democrats want to tell us how well we are doing with the economy and employment..........really????? Look around I don't see it, you?

 

We're doing great long as you enjoy Isis propaganda and watching them cut off heads and rape women. Do the Democrats actually know how many Isis members have been destroyed with all this bombing? But we can watch the Isis count daily on CNN.

 

Just saying!!! Obama scared the death out of America with ebola and the JV team-Isis. I know its Bushes fault, the usual Democrat response.

 

The American public sent a message to Obama and his financial backers. Its going to get worse imho.

[zigzag]

So... there it is.

[BobF_]

The opinions of musicians are mostly best expressed thru music. Like this:

 

[Searcy]

No, they aren't. They have become commonplace, for more reasons than just The Orange Guy wants to mess with The Black Guy. They are the ones you hear about, the ones the media decides they will run with. The more complex ones, the ones that have smoething to do with the hard work of figuring budgets and taxing and stuff like that, you don't hear about them. When they opted to not collect certain airport fees in 2010, in order to show The Black Guy who is boss, they put about a thousand people here, and I don't know how many more across the country, out of work, with no pay, for six weeks. But you didn't hear about that, because it wasn't sexy and exciting, wasn't full of flashbubs and soundbytes. That's just one.

 

That's not a government shutdown.

 

Ok. When guys like me can't buy stuff, you might start worrying.

 

No need to make it so personal. Are you worried that I can't buy the things I could before the ACA was passed? I didn't think so. Nor should you be.

 

I don't recall calling anyone apathetic or saying anything about apathy.

 

Then reread the topic... There are more people than you and I commenting here..

 

You can't engage in political discourse while encouraging eveyone else to not engage in political discourse.

 

I never tried to. Do you at least like Key Lime?

[BobF_]

 

I never tried to. Do you at least like Key Lime?

 

 

 

I don't care for Key Lime. When it comes to cake and pie, which is rare, it's all about the chocolate for me.

[L8_4thesh0w]

They gained a majority in 1994 also and decided they would not allow any Democratic legislation to be passed and were hailed as heroes in their gerrymandered districts.

Democrats squared off in a stalemate and in doing so, were equally to blame. It was the playground equivalent of "taking my ball and going home."

 

Result: Nothing at all got done and it eventually led to a government shutdown. Sound familiar?

Did it affect their house notes and insurance payments and private school tuitions and limo service? NO. Nothing they do affects them.

 

It's obscene especially when all the perks and lobbying contributions are weighted in.

 

There are working people in this country who can't even afford a burial!

 

I prefer cherry or peach!

 

Σß

[BobF_]

I'm of the opinion that a gubment that has that much negative influence when shutdown for a few weeks, has too much influence to begin with.

[Searcy]

I get what Mr. Friedman is saying, even though I don't have to know how to make steel or how to mine graphite to make a pencil. Somebody else already did that for me. The fallacy, as I see it, in his perspective is that the symbiotic relationship that exists between producer (seller) and consumer assumes that the consumer also has something of value that someone else wants. The reason that pure capitalism can't work is because not everyone in the system has something of value that someone else wants, or has enough of it to subsist independently, especially in areas where there are many people in the same boat. Friedman also sees the capitalist system as being fair, and in principle, it is. A free market system is fair if it isn't abused and it exists with ethics. And while capitalism allows freedom for the individual, it requires a cooperative effort within a group and an interdependence, not only within a company, but also within a community.

 

Also, capitalism promotes and depends on materialism, on not only satisfying needs, but also, wants. It has distorted our system of values and turned us in a covetous, money-loving, money-grubbing, misguided society. Not a day goes by when I don't, at some point, consider whether I have the money I need to either get through the day or the rest of my life. It is the source of stress for individuals, businesses, and countries.

 

The problem I have with capitalism is not the system, it is what it has become. When corporations define who we are as individuals and as a culture, when they control our core values, control our politics, and have the power to enculturate the entire world and oppress whole populations, that is earth shattering. I may not agree with or even like Islam, but I understand what motivates them.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jadvt7CbH1o

 

 

All valid points. A pure and unspoiled capitalists system would be great but it is as Milod said a Utopian concept which means it's the land of unicorns. What we have today with corporations and special interest (including unions) groups being able to buy influence with policy makers is what modern libertarians call crony capitalism.

 

I'm not holding my breath for a perfect world but when I listen to tax and spend democrats and borrow and spend republicans talk about the issues we face as a nation I rarely hear either of them propose ideas that reflect my values and beliefs. I also get more than a little pissed at republicans and democrats efforts on state, local and national levels to make it illegal for third party candidates to participate in American politics. I just want to see folks who feel as I do to start being represented in DC.

[BobF_]

 

I just want to see folks who feel as I do to start being represented in DC.

 

 

If the MAXIMUM power of gubment were constrained to only those things that are universally accepted across the political spectrum, we would all be represented.

 

When they start carving out this and that for this and that group, then by definition the gubment is working for a very small minority on that particular point.

[Searcy]

 

Did it affect their house notes and insurance payments and private school tuitions and limo service? NO. Nothing they do affects them.

 

It's obscene especially when all the perks and lobbying contributions are weighted in.

 

 

 

Σß

 

One of my pet gripes are rules and laws being passed that don't effect those who pass them or shield those in government from feeling the same effect as the rest of the people. That's not the work of a public servant. That's the work of a ruler.

[zigzag]

All valid points. A pure and unspoiled capitalists system would be great but it is as Milod said a Utopian concept which means it's the land of unicorns. What we have today with corporations and special interest (including unions) groups being able to buy influence with policy makers is what modern libertarians call crony capitalism.

 

I'm not holding my breath for a perfect world but when I listen to tax and spend democrats and borrow and spend republicans talk about the issues we face as a nation I rarely hear either of them propose ideas that reflect my values and beliefs. I also get more than a little pissed at republicans and democrats efforts on state, local and national levels to make it illegal for third party candidates to participate in American politics. I just want to see folks who feel as I do to start being represented in DC.

 

I'd go one step further and call it corporate fascism.

 

I would consider myself more of a liberal Libertarian- I believe in less, but more effective, government. I think that if we can understand the realities of the system we have created and that those realities are actually real, then it gives government the proper perspective. Poverty and disenfranchisement will always exist, especially in a capitalist system. Our government should deal with those realities, and part of that involves balancing being efficient with being fair.

[jannusguy2]

Democrats forgot to add one important achievement................

 

 

And from there it McDonalds, medication for depression, or the new home where 1/3 of the worlds prison population live. Yes Obama is doing wonderful representing the minorities. He'll even allow them to buy marijuana from him long as he profits? Will he allow you to grow your own? No thats not going to happen. The actual cost of living plays a major role in quality of life, and raising minimum wage means the minorities he supposedly looks out for will work? I imagine they will be the first to hired? Right, I don't think so. Equal rights? What about the unborn? What a double standard.

 

Koch? Who do you think backs Obama and what do you suppose their agenda is? The fact is 2/3s of the USA didn't vote because they believe WASHINGTON DC is CORRUPT!!!!!

 

I would just suggest also everyone who voted for the Republicans are not only Republicans, they are Democrats who like rats have enough sense to jump off a sinking ship.

 

Its not about Democrats or Republicans, its about "US". Be it the narrow minded grasp that or not. Largest change since WW-II and Mr Ignorant will continue to be, well true to his corrupt agenda.

 

Oh btw he claims to be a civil rights leader and fashions himself in the likes of King, google Alveda King and see what she has to say about Dr King and Obama?

 

I know Democrats want to tell us how well we are doing with the economy and employment..........really????? Look around I don't see it, you?

 

We're doing great long as you enjoy Isis propaganda and watching them cut off heads and rape women. Do the Democrats actually know how many Isis members have been destroyed with all this bombing? But we can watch the Isis count daily on CNN.

 

Just saying!!! Obama scared the death out of America with ebola and the JV team-Isis. I know its Bushes fault, the usual Democrat response.

 

The American public sent a message to Obama and his financial backers. Its going to get worse imho.

You should probably remove the word "advanced" from beneath your avatar.

[Tman]

My kids after the election. Lily my Cat is a tried and true "blue cat coalition" democrat. Brynn and Buster say they're independent.

 

[zigzag]

Pretty good, Tman. Unfortunately, if the dogs were republicans, the situation would be reversed in the senate.

[milod]

Maybe 'cuz I'm old and likely will have perhaps 5-15 years more on this earth, but I still blame even "party politics" as we see today as being a function of overpopulation and old-style governance (NOT "politics") for a nonfunctioning society.

 

With all due respect, the "left" is ignoring the lessons of the most "leftist" and yet decently functional government on earth - China. They're basically letting loose the forces of human nature that want to improve personal and family and friends' comfort and wellbeing. How? Through a degree of technocracy and fine-tuning a bureaucracy on regional levels. Perfect? Not by any means, but they've been fairly successful at fine-tuning on the fly for the past cupla decades.

 

Now personally, I'd not care to live in China. But on the same basis, I'd not care to live in the UK or Germany where folks are even more crowded than in North America, and where there's far more regulation that forces increased "social welfare" measures.

 

What I see in the U.S. is a battle between those who believe in the sort of top-down welfare state as found in ancient Rome during the Imperial era where "bread and circuses" and low-cost or free housing kept masses of non-working people busy and fed - while the top end played their games and the empire was washed away by other folks who were willing to take risks to grab a better life or die trying. The Chinese, IMHO, have at least for a time, some mechanisms to handle the dynamic between "welfare state" and "capitalism" that work, and will continue to work until they too lose "the mandate of heaven."

 

The question they faced, and the rest of us face as cultures, is how to handle huge and increasing populations and maintain cultural identity and a working economy that feeds, clothes and shelters various regional populations - at the same time ensuring a feeling of the possibility of individual effort to improve individual comfort levels.

 

So I laugh at U.S. complaints about the Koch brothers political spending when one looks at my work email where various labor unions brag about their own spending and manpower donations to the other side that have been there for the past century to the detriment of their opposition perspectives on the economy.

 

The problem is that both sides of current "western European" political cultures tend to argue details like problems of barnacles - on a ship that's headed for an iceberg - while ignoring the ship's direction.

 

Over half a century ago, Winston Churchill spoke of "the American race," in full recognition that it's not one of genetics but rather of spirit and intellect. As the saying goes for coming here, "the cowards never started and the weak died along the way." Now it seems that paradigm has changed - and ditto the end of a culture.

 

Bread and circuses anyone?

 

m

[L8_4thesh0w]

Well said, Milo.

 

Σß

[BobF_]

Well said, Milo.

 

Σß

 

Yep ...

[zigzag]

m, I can appreciate your comments about Chinese beaucracy, but there is so much about what they are doing that is wrong. And their system will eventually cave in, just like it has here, in Japan, and if I'm correct, India, though I understand they are all now growing again economically. The Chinese system is even more corrupt than the American, and they are just starting to impose needed regulation. Maybe we should be holding up Brazil as the best new model.

[milod]

Ziggy...

 

Been to Brazil.

 

Stayed in a hotel on Copacabana beach where 10 heads of state had been hosted a few years before.

 

Went out to shoot evening and night photos from the beach and they sent out half a dozen men to bring me back to the hotel on grounds that it was too dangerous to be outside the hotel at night even there.

 

No, not gonna look to Brazil as a pattern to follow.

 

Of course China has problems, but so does everyone else.

 

My point isn't that we should follow the Chinese paradigm, but we should consider the effect of populations and inefficient current bureaucracies - both public and private - on where the economy and culture really are going instead of arguing over peripherals. Frankly in U.S. party politics I think that in general the "right" does a better job of looking ahead to their immediate "political" detriment, while the "left" does a better job of appealing to desires for immediate personal "security" among the young and the frightened - and those who feel "entitled."

 

But neither side is willing to look long-term, and we seldom get bureaucrats who know how to make things happen besides protecting themselves and their acquaintances - again, both in terms of both private and public institutions.

 

Bread and circuses while the barbarians - both real and in metaphor - are hammering at the gates. I'll add that western Europe is in the same shape.

 

m

[Karloff]

Good posts Milod., sometimes hard to argue with the points you make... i hate talking politics, but i enjoy reading everyones posts. makes for a good read

[zigzag]

 

My point isn't that we should follow the Chinese paradigm, but we should consider the effect of populations and inefficient current bureaucracies - both public and private - on where the economy and culture really are going instead of arguing over peripherals... But neither side is willing to look long-term, and we seldom get bureaucrats who know how to make things happen besides protecting themselves and their acquaintances - again, both in terms of both private and public institutions.

m

 

I see your point and agree. Most bureaucracies tend to want to be self-sustaining instead of functioning as they were intended. But landscapes change, and the government has never been known to be forward thinking for obvious reasons. And both parties do a great job of spreading fear (republicans are great at scaring Americans into global conflicts), supported by corporate interests.

 

m, your problem is with government. My problem is with private enterprise, Wall Street/banks, and corporate culture AND government. (See post #27.)

[BobF_]

Corporations are frequently stereotyped as evil empires, and there certainly are a number of them that are. And they're obviously too entangled with gubment.

 

However, there are a lot of good corps out there that employ a lot of people, paying damm good wages/salaries and providing damm good benefits. I would hate to see the opportunities these companies provide get thrown out with the bath water ... or something like that. :)