ccw Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Hi All, First of all, I am new to this forum and I am also new to Gibson guitars, having mostly owned Martins and Takemines. After playing playing several Gibsons at the Guitar Centre (great service!), I narrowed down to the 2014 quilted maple Hummingbird. Unfortunately, I couldn't bring one back with me on the airline, so I had to resort to mail order. I found and placed an online order for a 2014 quilted Hummingbird from a store in the Netherlands and it arrived with a dent on the headstock, scratch and dents on the back and what looks to me like a corrugated soundboard with a significantly raised centreline joint. What do you guys feel abut this and what should be done? I paid full price for a new guitar and I should receive a new guitar in an unblemished condition. Unfortunately, the dealer seems hell bent on pushing the responsibility onto Gibson, which I understand do not warranty against any damage caused by the environment and certainly not against dents and scratches. My main concern is the condition of the soundboard. I hope some of you can offer some advice on how serious this is and if it will ever return to its normal state? When I suggested that this might be caused by dry conditions, the dealer immediately claimed that the Netherlands is humid and could never have caused this condition. I am no expert on such matters on dry conditions and humbly ask for some of you to chime in. I have not played the guitar much as I expected it to be returned for a replacement. I would say that the strings are not even broken-in yet, so I cannot pass judgement that it sounds so great that I can simply overlook all this if it sounds good. I was thinking of a J45 as the next Gibson to aim for, but am not so sure after this experience. Please advice? Thanks! CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 . Welcome. Sorry you've run into shipping/condition issues. Buying online has some risks so it's crucial to carefully pick the right dealer for online purchases - one with a solid reputation that provides well done pics of the actual guitar for sale (not stock advert pics like GC & MF), checks the guitar over before shipping, has a decent return policy, and will work with you over the phone. I'm in the US so can't advise on reputable dealers. I hope this works out for you. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 That's a tough one, being in the Netherlands. I do NOT know what the rules are there for buying and selling of Gibson. There are a few guys on here that know some phone numbers for you, maybe they will chime in. As for the photo, it looks like maybe there is something bad, but maybe not. I can't tell because although the photo is good, it doesn't give a good perspective. Having said that, if you have a certified repair man close to you, you would want to have him look at it. The "ripple" I see here is normal. Some guitars have more than others. Obviously, it is caused by the grain, the thinner finish Gibson uses, and to a degree, weather. Some might see it (to a degree) as a good thing, as some believe the best sounding guitars will tend to have it, as the causes are the same as what makes a guitar sound good. As for the separation, that can only be determined in person, because, either it has separated or it has not. Basically, have it looked at by a professional if you can, both for advice and as a witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I'd send it back to the shop .. not because of the ripples . my j45 has these ripples , as do others. But the dent in headstock and the scratches on the back have nothing to do with gibson .... is a shop fault and therefore their problem. It sounds like you'll not be happy with an unpristine guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlejohnny Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 send it back! You don't sound like someone in love. Send it back and try another Gibson! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyD Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I'd send it back to the shop .. not because of the ripples . my j45 has these ripples , as do others. But the dent in headstock and the scratches on the back have nothing to do with gibson .... is a shop fault and therefore their problem. It sounds like you'll not be happy with an unpristine guitar. I agree you pay top dollar you ought to receive a pristine piece of equipment!! I think its on the seller, it did not come factory direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyD Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 send it back! You don't sound like someone in love. Send it back and try another Gibson! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Back it goes TODAY! Nothing can stop you - scream blue murder if you must, call the cops, consumer people, government.....money back! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccw Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 Hi Fellas, Thanks for the comments. I've been wanting to set it back, but the dealer is very evasive. He lists a 24 month warranty on his website, yet when it comes to claims, he makes comments almost to the point of insulting me as a difficult customer and unreasonable in my request. I don't want to send the guitar back and have it held at ransom for more money to get it back. Many people at a Dutch forum have also complained about Max Guitars - promises are not kept and money back guarantee end up as store credit with nothing to exchange for. I know the ripples are normal for a thinly coated lacquer. My other guitars are kinda like this as well (but it follows the grains), but this actually has ridges, with the centreline joint being pushed up against each other. I've let it humidify a little more and that seems to help with some of the ripples, but not so much on the centreline joint. Here's a picture of the dent on the headstock, which he takes no responsibility for whatsoever and expects Gibson to warranty it! Will someone at Gibson USA enforce their dealers to take responsibility, or help out in cases like this? Lost... CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 The centerline looks a bit radical to me, and the ding in the headstock is obvious, from you pictures. You are not happy with the guitar from the start, and this unhappiness will never likely leave. Send it back. I take it the dealer is too far away to return it in person? I have not had these sorts of issues (observations) with the new Gibsons I have bought. If you're not happy now,you never will be. I have little issue with the ripple effect - that is likely ok in my view, the headstock ding would drive me nuts, unless I put it there myself. The centerline seam loos closed to me, but you are right, it does appear to be a bit more raised or mismatched, and not something I would expect to see on a new guitar. What's the serial number? Perhaps this guitar has been in existence longer than thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 I can't speak on the various issues you mention as I can't tell their extent or non extent. However, if it only the headstock chip, and everything else is AA, I wouldn't worry about it. From the photo it looks very minor. I'd treat it as a minor battle scar that makes the guitar unique. As yours. Why worry about something that is unnoticeable on a guitar once it is used and is only equivalent to a minor battle scar chip and hopefully any future dents you get as you own the guitar will only be as equally minor. Nothing is perfect except in its imperfection ya know. If your guitar has other issues, that is another matter. When I got my 1964 J 45 custom shop, I found a minor blemish on its top. I ignored it and treat it as I mention, a marker it is mine. When I got a less expensive used EL00 Epi, it had a dent on its top bigger than your headstock chip. I knew it had it when I got it. Weird as it sounds, I like it there now, a sign to me I like the guitar's sound and playability...and how the guitar expresses my music...and don't give a darn about a minor dent it has. It somehow makes it cooler. Weird, maybe. A rationalization on my part, maybe. But, I'd rather take such a high road on such little things that I've learned don't really matter in life's bigger context. Just my 2 cents. Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 These issues should result in a refund - I'd say between 350 and 400 USD down. The mid-seam of course is the most annoying as you for practical reasons just don't want any form of trobs there at all. The head-diiing, , , mmm, , , it's obviously there - and the head-stock is the face'n'crown of the guitar - but after a little price reduction it should be possible to live with it. Same with the seam as long as the local luthier can guarantee nothing bad will develope. However if you are disturbed on a deeper level and thus seriously disappointed, there's no choice : The Bird must go back. Finally there is the sound-factor - if this ex hits bulls eye regarding voice'n'feel, you should include this in the equation. The next flier might be just as good, but in a different way, , , it may even appear to be lesser satisfactory. All for my 5 Yen - wish you the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyj Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 I would assume that Dutch shops have the same responsibilites as UK ones. On that basis, if the guitar has damage not clearly described before purchase, you have the right to request a return at their expense. As far as warranties concerned, legally the dealer is your point of contact and the person who takes responsibility. It is their job to make sure you are happy, and to liase with Gibson to resolve the situation. You are the dealer's customer, and the dealer is Gibson's customer. Scratches and dents are not manufacturing issues, they are most likely the result of the guitar being mishandled when being demoed in the shop - and if it did arrive from Gibson with scratches and dents then it's for the dealer to take it up with Gibson. No dealer should ever be telling a customer 'not my problem, the warranty is with the manufacturer' - and when they do it's inevitably a deliberate tactic to deter you from pushing your case further with them. The dealer sold you the guitar and, if the guitar is faulty or not as described, it is their legal responsibility to resolve the situation. Personally I have some sympathy with dealers who end up with guitars marked by customers not taking care of the product when they try it in store - never the less they should really have mentioned the damage before shipping, and should offer something by way of compensation if you want to keep the guitar. The other stuff I'd suggest getting a local repairer to have a look before agreeing to keep it - as others have said the ripple is normal but the centre join needs closer examination. Also, is it just me or is there a tiny open gap between the soundboard and the purfling for an inch or so either side of the centre join? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Ha- yes, it does look like the top has pulled back from the binding a bit. This guitar has gotten dry... the raised grain in the top is ok, but is another sign of a guitar needing to spend some time in the steam room. It may currently be damp and 37 deg f in Amsterdam, but certain heating systems can really dry out man, beast, and 'Bird. Good pep talk, Jayyj. CW, you could probably learn to love this guitar, given time, but you should be able to return it if you'd like, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumblefingers Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 My only concern would be the raised area on the top. I'd wonder if that's going to get worse. As far as the ding, well, is this a player or a museum piece? If it's a player, I can almost guarantee you will be seeing more marks in the future. I don't know though, maybe some people are able to maintain a guitar in brand new condition over the course of its life. Not me. My brand new Gibson J-45 Custom had a few imperfections too, the most noticeable being a scratch on the top between 3/4" and 1". Almost looked like a string end was dragged across it. Very thin. The company was nice enough to refund me $200 off the purchase price. I am happy with that because I know I could inflict a similar scratch tomorrow by shear accident. I don't understand the ramifications of the raised area. Somebody more knowledgeable than me can chime in on that. My two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dReit1 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I would ask for a full refund or a different guitar. If refused,I would spend as much money as I did on the guitar buying ads in local newspapers and trade mags. telling the world what a POS the seller is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Hi Fellas, Thanks for the comments. I've been wanting to set it back, but the dealer is very evasive. He lists a 24 month warranty on his website, yet when it comes to claims, he makes comments almost to the point of insulting me as a difficult customer and unreasonable in my request. I don't want to send the guitar back and have it held at ransom for more money to get it back. Many people at a Dutch forum have also complained about Max Guitars - promises are not kept and money back guarantee end up as store credit with nothing to exchange for. I know the ripples are normal for a thinly coated lacquer. My other guitars are kinda like this as well (but it follows the grains), but this actually has ridges, with the centreline joint being pushed up against each other. I've let it humidify a little more and that seems to help with some of the ripples, but not so much on the centreline joint. Here's a picture of the dent on the headstock, which he takes no responsibility for whatsoever and expects Gibson to warranty it! Will someone at Gibson USA enforce their dealers to take responsibility, or help out in cases like this? Lost... CW You ordered it from a dealer in the U.S? did you remove the guitar from its originally sealed box? or was it opened in the U.S first prior to you buying it? I bet it has nothing to do with Gibson.. but the dealer.. restringing the guitar maybe? and nicking the face of the headstock? maybe ? a tech can make a error and try to cover up the mistake.. seen it before.. just wondering here.. as for the ripple.. its solid wood.. it does move .. Proper Humidity is its best friend.. at least its not cracked.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyj Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 This was bugging me so I did some digging. This is Max Guitars in The Hague, right? The laws on this are very clear and, as I expected, a standardised throughout Europe. If you want a refund or a replacement on the grounds the goods are damaged or faulty and the company refuse, you should advise them in writing that they are in breach of fair trading laws and that you will challenge them through official channels if they don't make good on their responsibilities. Send them a link to this thread as well if you like. A couple of links: http://www.eccnederland.nl/en/questions-and-answers/seller-refers-me-manufacturer-guarantee-allowed http://www.eccnederland.nl/en/submit-complaints/how-do-you-submit-complaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Can only say that the vision of my backside as I walked out the door would be the last thing that store ever saw of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Can only say that the vision of my backside as I walked out the door would be the last thing that store ever saw of me. Zomb - Can I rewrite that a bit and use it in a song. . The vision of my backside as I walked out the door was the last thing of me that they ever saw. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Zomb - Can I rewrite that a bit and use it in a song. . The vision of my backside as I walked out the door was the last thing of me that they ever saw. . "....So I picked up my heart lyin' there on your bed, and I staggered my way 'cross the floor.... And the last thing you'll see while you call out my name is the back of my a$$ as I walk out your door...." -- J-45 Nick "Don't Blink Twice, I'll be gone in a Trice" copyright 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 "....So I picked up my heart lyin' there on your bed, and I staggered my way 'cross the floor.... And the last thing you'll see while you call out my name is the back of my a$ as I walk out your door...." -- J-45 Nick "Don't Blink Twice, I'll be Back in a Trice" copyright 2014 Bravou Nick - keep sprinklin'n'splashin' that ink Slow quick - 'bout whatever you wonder or think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 * poof * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Hi All, First of all, I am new to this forum and I am also new to Gibson guitars, having mostly owned Martins and Takemines. After playing playing several Gibsons at the Guitar Centre (great service!), I narrowed down to the 2014 quilted maple Hummingbird. Unfortunately, I couldn't bring one back with me on the airline, so I had to resort to mail order. I found and placed an online order for a 2014 quilted Hummingbird from a store in the Netherlands and it arrived with a dent on the headstock, scratch and dents on the back and what looks to me like a corrugated soundboard with a significantly raised centreline joint. What do you guys feel abut this and what should be done? I paid full price for a new guitar and I should receive a new guitar in an unblemished condition. Unfortunately, the dealer seems hell bent on pushing the responsibility onto Gibson, which I understand do not warranty against any damage caused by the environment and certainly not against dents and scratches. My main concern is the condition of the soundboard. I hope some of you can offer some advice on how serious this is and if it will ever return to its normal state? When I suggested that this might be caused by dry conditions, the dealer immediately claimed that the Netherlands is humid and could never have caused this condition. I am no expert on such matters on dry conditions and humbly ask for some of you to chime in. I have not played the guitar much as I expected it to be returned for a replacement. I would say that the strings are not even broken-in yet, so I cannot pass judgement that it sounds so great that I can simply overlook all this if it sounds good. I was thinking of a J45 as the next Gibson to aim for, but am not so sure after this experience. Please advice? Thanks! CW By the picture it would appear that this guitar has been in a VERY dry environment foe a while, I go as far as to say 25% or less, if you don't develop cracks in the wood I will be surprised, at the very least that seam looks like a time bomb, the only thing keeping it from splitting wide open is a good glue job. if you plan on keeping this guitar get some humidity on/in it soon. As for the dents, that certainly would be something that the dealer/shipping carrier should address if they are worth their salt. This is some of the pit falls of buying on line and having it shipped to you, sad but true......Good luck. jmho ...and J-45Nick, you are onto something big with those lyrics, I have a pretty good feel for hits when I hear so a little music to tie it all together and I'll let you know if it's a smash hit.....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 ...and J-45Nick, you are onto something big with those lyrics, I have a pretty good feel for hits when I hear so a little music to tie it all together and I'll let you know if it's a smash hit.....lol It's easy to write a hook or a last line. It's all the rest that's hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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