Pre-Gibson Epiphones

[Morkolo]

You don't have to continue to subtly hint that those that play expensive American guitars don't hear as well as you or only bought them for the cache<---little thingy over the e.

 

That looks to be the case here, I often wonder if it's the laminate sides on the IB64 that give it that subtle edge over it's $2k+ competition. I tried a few and to be honest I like to hear my wet socks in the washing machine, not in a guitar.

[rct]

rct,

 

That's complete and utter nonsense. I'm not subtle about anything. I am quite clear about my opinions and experiences.

 

Yes, yes you are. You were quite clear that other thread that others just buy their guitars for the name on the headstock, and here pointing out that you are a mastering engineer and can hear subtle differences.

 

I'm not a mastering engineer and I can hear subtle differences clearly. I do not buy guitars for the name on the headstock.

 

I've never seen anyone tell you you buy and use Texans because you don't hear subtle differences clearly or that you only buy them because you don't care what is on the headstock. If it works for you, the opposite works for others, and they are also just as right.

 

It's all dogma. I've played some of the worst guitars I've ever played since 1971 in the last couple months because I wanted to see what these Texans are all about. There, I said it. I use a Martin that would steal your heart.

 

rct

 

rct

[cliffenstein]

rct,

 

I pointed out that I am a mastering engineer to give credence to the fact that I can indeed hear subtle differences between guitars. I did this in response to Morkolo"s mocking my statement that my Texan sounds as good as high end acoustics. He assumed I didn't have a well defined enough ear to hear the difference. He is woefully mistaken.

 

As to your Texan experience...every guitar brand has its dogs and most have their stars as well. Most everyone with a good IB64 Texan goes on about how great they are and I'm no exception. Epiphone makes a fantastic product and I am a proud customer.

[Dodger11]

I had an AJ200 that cost £100 (around $150?) including shipping from Germany (I'm in Ireland) and after playing it constantly for a couple of years it sounded almost as good as a few Gibson j45s I've heard. 1/15th of the price or less but no way 1/15th of the sound.

 

Funny some of the highest regarded and most expensive guitars (Lowden) are built about 20 miles from where I live but then taste is subjective! I've recently played a few Texans that didn't sound great but found one that had a killer tone - a Masterbilt in the same store blew away nearly everything else there.

[LPS1976]

The real McCartney knows what he has. He likely cares less than the fake McCartneys.

 

I doubt he would look down on anyone for playing, and loving, a modern day Epi. And neither would I.

 

He does have some really, nice, high-end guitars though. I don't think he is playing the Imported Epiphones. He can afford it more than most too. And I'm quite sure he is playing what he is playing because he can tell the difference.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with the "real and fake McCartneys" but my point is that his are Gibson era Epiphones and as the op pointed out they are "not real Epiphones". I just don't think that his statement is warranted. if that were the case then any guitar not made by a member of the Stathopoulo family is not a real Epiphone (counting his). and you are correct, McCartney isn't playing imported Epiphones.

[Wetdog]

I'm so glad to have started a thread that really get's folks emotions up. My goal is not to offend. Let it be said that TONE is a subjective quality, highly variable, and and also varies for any particular type of music. There is also the subjective quality of a guitar getting "played-in," meaning after playing for a couple of years it is generally agreed among many aficionados a guitar will "open up" and sound "better." So for those stroking their 2014 guitars that's good news for the future.

 

But the point must be made. A clean 1939 D-18 Martin goes for $20K plus. A high-end Benedetto hand carved F-hole $20K-30K. Ditto for Strombergs, D'Angelicos, and D'Aquestos. 400 year old Stradivarius, Amati and Guarneri violins go for millions. Ever heard of a master concert violinist like Itzak Perlman playing a 2014 Indonesian? Sorry, he plays a Guarneri. If this offends you I'm sorry.

 

Again, just IMHO, this is not only because of their antique value but because they SOUND better. My 1959 Martin O-18 is unrivaled in sweet tone to any other acoustic I have ever played but has a "small" voice, meaning it is not as loud as my Martin Jumbo which has great balance and not as boomy lows as a dreadnought, but seriously loud. But not as loud a my friends modern Masterbuilt Epi. But I feel my Martin produces more complex overtones. (Sounds Better) But none of them have a "bite" like my 1947 Gibson L-7. So enjoy your Indonesian guitars, I'm sure they sound good and are certainly priced competitively. But are they "World Class?" Would Segovia have played one?... B)

[LPS1976]

I'm so glad to have started a thread that really get's folks emotions up. My goal is not to offend. Let it be said that TONE is a subjective quality, highly variable, and and also varies for any particular type of music. There is also the subjective quality of a guitar getting "played-in," meaning after playing for a couple of years it is generally agreed among many aficionados a guitar will "open up" and sound "better." So for those stroking their 2014 guitars that's good news for the future.

 

But the point must be made. A clean 1939 D-18 Martin goes for $20K plus. A high-end Benedetto hand carved F-hole $20K-30K. Ditto for Strombergs, D'Angelicos, and D'Aquestos. 400 year old Stradivarius, Amati and Guarneri violins go for millions. Ever heard of a master concert violinist like Itzak Perlman playing a 2014 Indonesian? Sorry, he plays a Guarneri. If this offends you I'm sorry.

 

Again, just IMHO, this is not only because of their antique value but because they SOUND better. My 1959 Martin O-18 is unrivaled in sweet tone to any other acoustic I have ever played but has a "small" voice, meaning it is not as loud as my Martin Jumbo which has great balance and not as boomy lows as a dreadnought, but seriously loud. But not as loud a my friends modern Masterbuilt Epi. But I feel my Martin produces more complex overtones. (Sounds Better) But none of them have a "bite" like my 1947 Gibson L-7. So enjoy your Indonesian guitars, I'm sure they sound good and are certainly priced competitively. But are they "World Class?" Would Segovia have played one?... B)

 

I understand now. You wanted to list all of your vintage guitars and the ways that they are superior to all others. I'm sure they all sound great. 10-4. and no, I have not heard of a master concert violinist like Itzak Perlman and could care less about what violin he plays because this is a guitar forum.

[zombywoof]

I always thought of Epiphone as the guitar builder that should have been. While their fortunes had been waning since Epi's death 1943 due largely to indifference, the Gibson purchase (with Ted McCarty joking he was able to get the company for what cash he had in his pocket) was kind of an ignominious ending to a company that made some of the world's finest guitars.

 

When it comes to archtops, Epiphone surely gave Gibson a heck of a run for its money. Even though I own a pre-Gibson Epi FT-79 I do not think their flattops were in the same league as Gibsons though. Those early Recording Series guitars, as example, while some of the coolest looking flattops out there are also some of the lousiest sounding guitars I have ever gotten my hands on.

 

I do think that Gibson breathed some badly needed new life into the flattop line. My favorite Gibson-era Epis though remain the very first Texans which were pretty much a leftover Epi French Heel neck slapped on a J-50 body.

[stein]

It's kinda a shame that on an Epi forum, discussing vintage Epis can't be discussed because those with cheaper guitars get offended by those discussing better guitars.

 

There's lots of guys in the acoustic forums and others who have far, far better guitars than I do. I never get the impression they think they are better than me, or that I am not welcome. And, while I may drool at others guitars more than my own, I don't get angry or jealous because they have better guitars and want to share them here.

 

Quite the opposite: I APPRECIATE those that share the ridiculously good stuff and their experience with them. It's actually fun.

 

How does one "appreciate" and share the finest and best of instruments without offending those who don't?

 

Pre-Gibson and early Gibson Epiphones are some of the finest instruments in history, and there is sorta a rich history there.

 

If it's a rich-man poor-man thing, perhaps it would be more fun to listen up and learn about them, because if one is to find a closet queen or a "lost" guitar at a garage sale or pawn shop, chances are pretty good you could find one of these old Epiphones. Not to mention they are more often cheaper to buy than Gibby's and Martins and such, for generally equal quality.

[rct]

In any forum, in any of the old usenet newsgroups, bbs, all of them, it was the same, from both ends. Those with the money to buy vintage or boutique would happily tell those that didn't need vintage or boutique that they didn't have a developed enough ear, or wren't good enough guitar players to know the difference. Those that don't need to buy vintage or boutique would happily tell those that do that they only buy for the name and they just can't hear the differences that I can, and if I can tell you a 300 dollar guitar sounds as good as a 3 thousand dollar guitar then you should believe me, because <fill in the reason>.

 

None of it is true, and none of it is good. Everyone uses what they use for whatever reasons, and nobody needs to know those reasons and no justification is ever needed. That's where it all goes wrong, when the justifyin starts. Use what you use and like it, love it, whatever. But don't line up all the reasons others use what they use in order to make yourself feel better.

 

rct

[stein]

I always thought of Epiphone as the guitar builder that should have been. While their fortunes had been waning since Epi's death 1943 due largely to indifference, the Gibson purchase (with Ted McCarty joking he was able to get the company for what cash he had in his pocket) was kind of an ignominious ending to a company that made some of the world's finest guitars.

 

When it comes to archtops, Epiphone surely gave Gibson a heck of a run for its money. Even though I own a pre-Gibson Epi FT-79 I do not think their flattops were in the same league as Gibsons though though. Those early Recording Series guitars, as example, while some of the coolest looking flattops out there are also some of the lousiest sounding guitars I have ever gotten my hands on.

 

I do think that Gibson breathed some badly needed new life into the flattop line. My favorite Gibson-era Epis though remain the very first Texans which were pretty much a leftover Epi French Heel neck slapped on a J-50 body.

I remember kinda having those impressions too. But also, with a lot of old guitars.

 

Some are cheap, and you expect them to sound cheap. But some appear to have all the "sound good" stuff (solid top, materiels, blah blah).

 

I think, in my case, a lot of it is that it takes some time, or some spark, to warm up to something. I played a lot of "vintage" Martins and newer ones before I "got it". Same with Gibson.

 

It could be, maybe, it's kinda a voice thing that "we" might need to get used to. Like, Taylor.

 

I honestly can't be sure of what I remember, but it seems to me the whole of the pre-Gibson Epi stuff was more on the bright side, and more on the "woody" side as well. And unsmooth.

 

Perhaps, one could view an Epi as a wolf in sheeps clothing, a finely dressed high class woman, who underneath the sophistication of the outside has that rough and ready to go persona.

 

I think I'm in love with a guitar I've never met.

[LPS1976]

I totally get what he's saying and I think it's great that he has some really nice rare guitars. I'm not at all offended by the discussion but to say that my guitar is better than yours is kind of a pompous thing to say. but like he said that's his opinion and for all I know he could be tone deaf...

[stein]

I totally get what he's saying and I think it's great that he has some really nice rare guitars. I'm not at all offended by the discussion but to say that my guitar is better than yours is kind of a pompous thing to say. but like he said that's his opinion and for all I know he could be tone deaf...

No one, on this thread, has been pompous in saying "my guitar is better than yours".

 

Some guitars are better than others. Pointing that out, or rather, just recognizing it, is not pompous or stuck up.

 

Re-read the thread. In nearly every occasion that "better" guitars are brought up, the posting gives qualifications and/or props to owners and appreciation for the cheaper guitars.

 

It's like assuming the owner of a Porsche is being a jerk discussing his car because it happens to be better than a Volkswagon.

[cliffenstein]

No one, on this thread, has been pompous in saying "my guitar is better than yours".

 

Some guitars are better than others. Pointing that out, or rather, just recognizing it, is not pompous or stuck up.

 

Re-read the thread. In nearly every occasion that "better" guitars are brought up, the posting gives qualifications and/or props to owners and appreciation for the cheaper guitars.

 

It's like assuming the owner of a Porsche is being a jerk discussing his car because it happens to be better than a Volkswagon.

 

Many of us modern Epiphone acoustic owners believe, for good reason, that our guitars are every bit as good as modern high price label guitars. We generally have to search longer to find "the one." But when we have "the one" and buy it and then test the high price label guitars and see and hear them all actually being in the same league, we are glad we searched instead of spending thousands of dollars we may or may not have had.

 

It's a win win to us. It's perfectly fine for people to spend their money however they want to. We just prefer to not spend it like that. That is all.

 

I find it offensive when people refer to my wonderful feeling, sounding and playing guitars as not real simply because they weren't made 75 years ago.

[LPS1976]

No one, on this thread, has been pompous in saying "my guitar is better than yours".

 

Some guitars are better than others. Pointing that out, or rather, just recognizing it, is not pompous or stuck up.

 

Re-read the thread. In nearly every occasion that "better" guitars are brought up, the posting gives qualifications and/or props to owners and appreciation for the cheaper guitars.

 

It's like assuming the owner of a Porsche is being a jerk discussing his car because it happens to be better than a Volkswagon.

 

I think you should re-read the thread. I read it several times and it kind of comes off as stuck up.

[cliffenstein]

I think you should re-read the thread. I read it several times and it kind of comes off as stuck up.

 

Bingo

[LPS1976]

No one, on this thread, has been pompous in saying "my guitar is better than yours".

 

Some guitars are better than others. Pointing that out, or rather, just recognizing it, is not pompous or stuck up.

 

Re-read the thread. In nearly every occasion that "better" guitars are brought up, the posting gives qualifications and/or props to owners and appreciation for the cheaper guitars.

 

It's like assuming the owner of a Porsche is being a jerk discussing his car because it happens to be better than a Volkswagon.

 

Also I wouldn't assume the owner of a Porsche is being a jerk for discussing his car but he would in fact be a jerk for telling someone who owned a Volkswagon that his Porsche is better.

[stein]

I think you should re-read the thread. I read it several times and it kind of comes off as stuck up.

Only because those on the side of the "Import appreciation side" are taking it that way.

 

This whole thread started as a "real Epiphone" appreciation thread. That's, as plainly put, is a reference to the time when Epiphone was it's own company, and made it's own guitars. Not owned or made by Gibson (or anyone else). REAL EPIPHONE referring to guitar MADE by Epiphone really isn't a stretch to use that term, is it?

 

Sorry, there ain't no "stuck up" about it. But rather, the postings saying it is are where the offence is coming into it. Maybe I'm taking it wrong. Maybe it's all in good fun.

 

Talking about guitars is supposed to be fun, isn't it? It's not like we are changing the world or saving lives.

 

I feel like I am at a dog show. Tell me the only purebred pugs come from China and I'm all over it.

[LPS1976]

Only because those on the side of the "Import appreciation side" are taking it that way.

 

This whole thread started as a "real Epiphone" appreciation thread. That's, as plainly put, is a reference to the time when Epiphone was it's own company, and made it's own guitars. Not owned or made by Gibson (or anyone else). REAL EPIPHONE referring to guitar MADE by Epiphone really isn't a stretch to use that term, is it?

 

Sorry, there ain't no "stuck up" about it. But rather, the postings saying it is are where the offence is coming into it. Maybe I'm taking it wrong. Maybe it's all in good fun.

 

Talking about guitars is supposed to be fun, isn't it? It's not like we are changing the world or saving lives.

 

I feel like I am at a dog show. Tell me the only purebred pugs come from China and I'm all over it.

 

like I said, I get it and I certainly appreciate it. but, I'm not the one that ended my last post "So enjoy your Indonesian guitars, I'm sure they sound good and are certainly priced competitively. But are they "World Class?" Would Segovia have played one?... B) ". these are comments I'm referring to as stuck up. not the Real Epiphone discussion.

[cliffenstein]

like I said, I get it and I certainly appreciate it. but, I'm not the one that ended my last post "So enjoy your Indonesian guitars, I'm sure they sound good and are certainly priced competitively. But are they "World Class?" Would Segovia have played one?... B) ". these are comments I'm referring to as stuck up. not the Real Epiphone discussion.

 

Bingo again!

 

When I reference my personal experience about how good modern Epiphones can be and are, I get mocked for having no ears to hear. When I counter with the fact that, actually, I do have ears, I'm a mastering engineer. From there I get called out as bragging and stuck up and blah, blah, blah.

 

Complete nonsense and utter poppycock!

[stein]

like I said, I get it and I certainly appreciate it. but, I'm not the one that ended my last post "So enjoy your Indonesian guitars, I'm sure they sound good and are certainly priced competitively. But are they "World Class?" Would Segovia have played one?... B) ". these are comments I'm referring to as stuck up. not the Real Epiphone discussion.

That isn't stuck up. The point being that given the choice to play anything he wanted, he would choose the "best of the best".

 

I, myself, I appreciate a good Indonesian guitar. I enjoy them. I like to shop for them. I like to mess with them, modify, etc. And, I like the fact I can leave them on the couch or wherever and not worry about them as I would other stuff.

 

When I play the cheaper ones, I get just as good of practice as I do others. That's a good point. A guy, whatever he chooses, can be just as good a player and get just as good, because they are certainly good enough for that.

 

There are some on this forum that can't, or won't afford more than an Indonesian Epi, but yet, they play and entertain "professionally" at a level I have a great, great deal of respect for.

 

I'll say this too: I have a lot more respect for the guy practicing on his couch for hours with a cheap guitar than a guy who doesn't practice much at all. I would be the latter. And also, I would say, my experience, is that guys who entertain who put more effort into their performance than what guitar they play put on the better performance. A good guitar will not solve all your problems.

 

Having said all that, those that do commit themselves to the art of playing, their careers, and the sound they get and the performances they give, they usually tend to play the best guitars they can. As said before, everyone has their own reasons. But for those that tend to go for using the better guitars, it isn't always "snobbery". Upgrading the standards of the equipment you are using, to me, SHOULD be something that gains respect, especially for those that have to make sacrifices to do so.

 

Then, there are those that see guitars more of a hobby than making music. Many know more about guitars, and what makes a good guitar, than how to play them well or put on a good show. NOTHING wrong with that either. Appreciating quality, build, craftsmanship, and being interested in the higher levels of these things found on the more expensive and "better" instruments should be seen as a noble thing, not snobbery. Noble because, to care about a thing that a person(s) builds is the same as caring about those who built it, because they want you to care.

[LPS1976]

That isn't stuck up. The point being that given the choice to play anything he wanted, he would choose the "best of the best".

 

I, myself, I appreciate a good Indonesian guitar. I enjoy them. I like to shop for them. I like to mess with them, modify, etc. And, I like the fact I can leave them on the couch or wherever and not worry about them as I would other stuff.

 

When I play the cheaper ones, I get just as good of practice as I do others. That's a good point. A guy, whatever he chooses, can be just as good a player and get just as good, because they are certainly good enough for that.

 

There are some on this forum that can't, or won't afford more than an Indonesian Epi, but yet, they play and entertain "professionally" at a level I have a great, great deal of respect for.

 

I'll say this too: I have a lot more respect for the guy practicing on his couch for hours with a cheap guitar than a guy who doesn't practice much at all. I would be the latter. And also, I would say, my experience, is that guys who entertain who put more effort into their performance than what guitar they play put on the better performance. A good guitar will not solve all your problems.

 

Having said all that, those that do commit themselves to the art of playing, their careers, and the sound they get and the performances they give, they usually tend to play the best guitars they can. As said before, everyone has their own reasons. But for those that tend to go for using the better guitars, it isn't always "snobbery". Upgrading the standards of the equipment you are using, to me, SHOULD be something that gains respect, especially for those that have to make sacrifices to do so.

 

Then, there are those that see guitars more of a hobby than making music. Many know more about guitars, and what makes a good guitar, than how to play them well or put on a good show. NOTHING wrong with that either. Appreciating quality, build, craftsmanship, and being interested in the higher levels of these things found on the more expensive and "better" instruments should be seen as a noble thing, not snobbery. Noble because, to care about a thing that a person(s) builds is the same as caring about those who built it, because they want you to care.

 

I'm not saying that it's snobbery to play better guitars and I'm obviously failing at making my point.

[wiggy]

... But the point must be made. A clean 1939 D-18 Martin goes for $20K plus. A high-end Benedetto hand carved F-hole $20K-30K. Ditto for Strombergs, D'Angelicos, and D'Aquestos. 400 year old Stradivarius, Amati and Guarneri violins go for millions. Ever heard of a master concert violinist like Itzak Perlman playing a 2014 Indonesian? Sorry, he plays a Guarneri. If this offends you I'm sorry...

 

I have to say that I come down firmly on both sides of the argument BUT I would like to point out (in specific regards to violins) that there have been several blind vs sighted tests where highly regarded soloists have both heard and played a number of violins from both the 'Cremona golden age' (eg Stradivarius and Guarneri) and modern instruments. In virtually every blind test the modern instruments were predominantly chosen as better sounding whereas in sighted tests the Cremona instruments were chosen. What we hear is very often coloured by what we EXPECT to hear.

 

 

 

 

 

[rct]

Bingo again!

 

When I reference my personal experience about how good modern Epiphones can be and are, I get mocked for having no ears to hear. When I counter with the fact that, actually, I do have ears, I'm a mastering engineer.

 

Is that what really happened? Is there another thread I was in? Because as I read it, you just out of nowhere let everyone know you are a mastering engineer and that you can hear subtle differences that I would assume others that aren't mastering engineers can't hear. I know, you didn't say that, but that's the implication of the text.

 

I don't see anyone mocking you for no ears, but I may have missed it?

 

The original poster wrote in the second or third sentence he was a pre-Gibson Epiphone snob. I don't know what was so shocking about the rest of what he wrote up there.

 

rct

[cliffmac]

No one, on this thread, has been pompous in saying "my guitar is better than yours".

 

Some guitars are better than others. Pointing that out, or rather, just recognizing it, is not pompous or stuck up.

 

Re-read the thread. In nearly every occasion that "better" guitars are brought up, the posting gives qualifications and/or props to owners and appreciation for the cheaper guitars.

 

It's like assuming the owner of a Porsche is being a jerk discussing his car because it happens to be better than a Volkswagon.

 

just a little info for ya

 

Volkswagen acquired a controlling stake in SEAT in 1986, making it the first non-German marque of the company, and acquired control of Škoda in 1994, of Bentley, Lamborghini and Bugatti in 1998, Scania in 2008 and of Ducati, MAN and Porsche in 2012