cliffenstein Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 rct, I re-read the thread. You are quite right. I mentioned my mastering engineer work to drive home the point about my ears being worth enough to know how good my Texan is and then was mocked after. I had remembered it backwards. I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 just a little info for ya Volkswagen acquired a controlling stake in SEAT in 1986, making it the first non-German marque of the company, and acquired control of Škoda in 1994, of Bentley, Lamborghini and Bugatti in 1998, Scania in 2008 and of Ducati, MAN and Porsche in 2012 Amazing post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 And it never got any better than the 1966 Beetle (once you switched to 12 volt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 And it never got any better than the 1966 Beetle (once you switched to 12 volt). I had a red '65 VW bug convertible that was already running with the 12 volt system, but my '66 VW van still had a 6 volt system. Both were totally reliable for the time that I had them, including many long vacation trips. Of course as it slowly lugged up steep mountain roads, the saving grace on the van was an external oil cooler! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetdog Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Yea everybody, let your emotions fly. If you all recall I started this thread by saying,"So okay so I'm an old school pre-Gibson Epiphone snob." That's sort of my point, and calling me "stuck-up" is what I called myself, sort of. I dig the vintage and know for certain that old-school craftsmanship is alive and well in the high-end guitar market and what you folks call "boutique" guitars." I just think of them as one off, meticulously crafted instruments. I also dig the idea that a master builder "tap tunes" the plates by ear. This type of attention to craftsmanship takes years of training and trial and error. If this is so with the mass produced Asian built instruments then I stand corrected. On another thread of this forum I had a discussion with a guy who plays an ES 175. Next to my Joe Pass Asian guitar I'm sure his blows mine away for tone and play-ability and I told him so. I guess the point I was trying to make was that those older instruments sound "different" and were very well built not that mine is better than yours. Ever read Gruhn's Guide to Vintage Instruments? That sound is not easily found in today's mass produced instruments of any brand. I also believe that a vintage instrument has an old soul and is imbued with and projects the vibe of many 10s of thousands of play hours. An interesting point no one has brought up is HOW one plays a guitar and what kind of music he/she plays. Are you just starting out or have you played every day for 50 years? Do you bang away at first position "farmer chords" or do you play like Ricky Scaggs? (who by the way plays an 1855 Martin parlor guitar). Do you play gypsy jazz or folk music? Do you play all originals or cover classics? Do you play acoustic jazz or jam with your friends at the beach? Do you finger pick, play with a flat pick, use one of those big fat gypsy jazz picks or one of those tiny jazz picks? Do you play your acoustic amplified? What kind of pickup? etc, etc. The totality of the combinations is literally infinite. I totally agree with the contributor whose idea was that you play what you have and can afford... and love it. After all, many a down home blues guy started off with a Montgomery Ward or worse but made it sound great. In the end it's about what you DO with the instrument, not the instrument itself. So let's play nice and just dig the music. Oh, by the way, I really dig Pre-Gibson Epiphones. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Are you just starting out or have you played every day for 50 years? Do you bang away at first position "farmer chords" or do you play like Ricky Scaggs? Do you play gypsy jazz or folk music? Do you play all originals or cover classics? Do you play acoustic jazz or jam with your friends at the beach? Do you finger pick, play with a flat pick, use one of those big fat gypsy jazz picks or one of those tiny jazz picks? Do you play your acoustic amplified? What kind of pickup? etc, etc. This is without a doubt a key point, and it is why I always take anyone's assessment of an instrument with a grain of salt - to be added to other grains of information. I play almost exclusively with my fingers & nails brushing the strings. Sort of a three finger Scruggs-style of picking without the fingerpicks. I brace my ring finger on the fingerboard. My style of attack is unique to me, and the tonal characteristics that make me smile are ones that may not matter to a significant percentage of players. So by all means, it's great to share why someone likes a particular instrument. But beyond that, I consider comparisons to other eras, value/price, models, etc, to be marginally useful supposition. I'll need to do those A-B comparisons on my own, with instruments in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 So let's play nice and just dig the music. Oh, by the way, I really dig Pre-Gibson Epiphones. B) Right ON my man! I'll start by saying, my personal crown jewel is likely my L-7c, '61. Not a collectors, been hacked with two humbuckers (in, I think maybe, '61). Worth a good amount, but not enough to brag about or even sell. What I use it for? I TRY and noodle jazz with it, or some blues. But I will also practice anything. Thing is, the SOUND it makes is heaven. It's a little on the bright side, especially compared to the L-5's I have played. But it can sound like a piano. It has a voice. Always in tune, if that makes any sense. It sounds so GOOD, even practicing stupid chords or scales sounds like music. So, there might be something to that "old wood" deal, but if it's a myth, to me, the sound IS mythical. For acoustic blues, I got a '65 Martin 000-18 that is beat to hell, refinished, has a thin top (from use), has a real skinny neck and the bridge is so low the pins stick up in my hand. It's hard to play. Obviously barely worth the price of fixing it. But truly, the sound it makes, sometimes I will get it out just to pluck the strings and play it just to hear it, to spite the fact it just isn't fun to play because of the "issues". It sounds like bright and balanced honey, if that makes any sense. Old wood? I rarely play anymore, very out of practice, and no desire really to join a band or play out, which used to be my main, and maybe only, motivation for making myself play alone. So, while these aren't the guitars I play(ed) most often, they are the standout's. There IS something about them that for sure, is the result of craftsmanship. I have, for sure, played a lot of guitars, including many I would not be able to own, or never ended up owning. And for the most part, there is something to the "better" guitars. I do still own a couple other Gibby's. As well as a few Strats. And others. Owned a lot more. In my previous post, I might have given myself a woody to check into a ("real") Epiphone. Couple reasons. Firstly, I have played some, but mostly overlooked them when I was shopping and buying the L-7 for an archtop. Mostly because I had a woody for an L5. Secondly, archtops are priced low right now, and the Epi seems to be at the bottom of that list. Also, I tend to like brighter than smoother, as I play with fingers and rarely use a pick. So perhaps the general voice might suit me. And then, of corse, some of these Epi's have ornamentation to die for. It's possible, the Epi MIGHT be the ultimate guitar for me. Maybe not. But I sure am going to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisB643 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I hear people talking about "real Epiphones" and from a logical discussion of what is and what isn't a "real Epiphone" the answer is quite clear and compelling. If is states it on the head stock and has a valid Epiphone serial number then it is a "real Epiphone." Whether one prefers this year or that year or that country of manufacture over another is irrelevant to the argument. People talk about Gibson quality and for a significant period, it was said to have suffered quite substantially. I would argue that only Martin (and even this is questionable) has been consistent in quality; one reason why the company is held in such high regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I hear people talking about "real Epiphones" and from a logical discussion of what is and what isn't a "real Epiphone" the answer is quite clear and compelling. If is states it on the head stock and has a valid Epiphone serial number then it is a "real Epiphone." Whether one prefers this year or that year or that country of manufacture over another is irrelevant to the argument. People talk about Gibson quality and for a significant period, it was said to have suffered quite substantially. I would argue that only Martin (and even this is questionable) has been consistent in quality; one reason why the company is held in such high regard. Brilliantly stated, Dennis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooseguy Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I have a 1936 Epiphone Zenith. A great guitar. The only reason they are relatively inexpensive is due to the low demand in the vintage guitar marketplace for acoustic archtops. Not to say that won't change one day. The collector market place is driven by the ever changing face of what are hot as collectables at any given time. I also have another NY Epiphone on my Epiphone hall of my guitar collection. That one is a 1955 or 56 Epiphone FT79. The flat top predecessor to the Gibson Epiphone FT79 Texan. In the vintage world, the NY Epi FT79 is known as the pre-Texan. My Epiphone collection also spans/includes the Kalamazoo Epiphone era and the modern Epi import era, skipping only the early import era from the Norlin era. Cool to have a collection that spans the original era, the Kalamazoo era, and now the modern import era. By having a collection spanning the eras, I see great continuity in the brand and appreciate how Gibson has kept this once nearly extinct brand an ongoing force in guitar manufacturing. A reason we are all on this forum, right now. Just my two cents. Jazzman Jeff aka QM Hi Question Mark: Do you have an Excellente in your collection? If so what year one? Moose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisB643 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I hear people talking about "real Epiphones" and from a logical discussion of what is and what isn't a "real Epiphone" the answer is quite clear and compelling. If is states it on the head stock and has a valid Epiphone serial number then it is a "real Epiphone." Whether one prefers this year or that year or that country of manufacture over another is irrelevant to the argument. People talk about Gibson quality and for a significant period, it was said to have suffered quite substantially. I would argue that only Martin (and even this is questionable) has been consistent in quality; one reason why the company is held in such high regard. One more thought about this subject. Martin has a manufacturing plant in a foreign country, yet die-hard Martin enthusiasts rarely site these instruments as "real Martins". I judge each instrument on its own merits...period. There seems to be a prejudice against instruments that are not made in this country, as if other countries were incapable of producing a instrument worthy of your time, or their employees were somehow lesser skilled than Americans or that they didn't work as hard as Americans to feed their families(ask Japanese Toyota employees about this)when in reality, American craftsmanship and our manufacturing base has been on the decline since the seventies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 There seems to be a prejudice against instruments that are not made in this country, as if other countries were incapable of producing a instrument worthy of your time, or their employees were somehow lesser skilled than Americans or that they didn't work as hard as Americans to feed their families(ask Japanese Toyota employees about this)when in reality, American craftsmanship and our manufacturing base has been on the decline since the seventies. Without getting into whatever state American craftmanship isn't, I'll just say that I'm from a time when there was a Tele a Strat and a Les Paul and there weren't twelve thousand versions of each from thirty seven different countries. I think that's what you mostly experience, that kind of bewilderment and sure, some form of prejudice at some level. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 There seems to be a prejudice against instruments that are not made in this country, as if other countries were incapable of producing a instrument worthy of your time, or their employees were somehow lesser skilled than Americans or that they didn't work as hard as Americans to feed their families(ask Japanese Toyota employees about this)when in reality, American craftsmanship and our manufacturing base has been on the decline since the seventies. Personally, I don't see that as the issue. A number of factories around the world are capable of building instruments at a level of build quality that rivals Gibson or Martin (Terada in Japan comes immediately to mind). It's more a matter of the price point at which an instrument is targeted. To a great extent, that price point will dictate the materials, time, and construction techniques utilized. When Gibson/Epiphone wants an Elitist level of quality, they turn to a factory that can deliver the product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Interesting thread and all but is there only ONE person on this forum with a Pre-Gibson Epiphone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Interesting thread and all but is there only ONE person on this forum with a Pre-Gibson Epiphone? I used a couple when I was a kid. They were overall just ok. Like all of those guitars back then, before they were vintage, before they were Pre-Gibson/CBS/Norlin, nobody really thought that much about what they were going to someday be worth or that people on some invisible network would be arguing about them. They were just guitars is all. Just like now. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Hi Mooseguy- No Excellente in my collection. Wish I did, though! Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Interesting thread and all but is there only ONE person on this forum with a Pre-Gibson Epiphone? Two. Way early in this posting string I referenced that I have a 1936 Epi Zenith and a 1955 or 57 Epi FT79 (pre-Texan). Interesting how it didn't generate controversy. Guess I merely put them in perspective that they are part of my overall Epiphone collection. I don't get off on rattling cages. Not my cup of tea to feed off stirring people up. Why bother and for what! Guess it is how one says things,eh? Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Meant 55 or 56 FT79. Darn iphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Do you have any pictures to share? I've always wanted a Pre-Gibson Epiphone electric after I read about Amos Garrett playing one and how he said it was like a 335 but with a much better neck. I'd imagine today they'd be way out of my price range due to general vintage price craziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Do you have any pictures to share? I've always wanted a Pre-Gibson Epiphone electric after I read about Amos Garrett playing one and how he said it was like a 335 but with a much better neck. I'd imagine today they'd be way out of my price range due to general vintage price craziness. I believe Amos played an Epi Sheraton so it is not a pre-Gibson Epi but was made in Kalamazoo. Fo me, no neck made by Gibson in the 1960s will work. Too flippin skinny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Do you have any pictures to share? Unfortunately no photos ready available and am in travel right now. Regarding the necks on the two pre/Gibson Epi's in my Epi collection, they both have what I would describe as having almost a semi V shape to them. Like a D shaped neck with a slight V shape to them. The slight V fits right into my left palm and quite comfortable. Not a modern C shape for sure. While I like the NY Epi's neck on both, realistically I much more prefer the shape of modern Gibson or Epi shaped necks, but the NY Epis' necks are cool in that they are time piece from another era from my perspective. The headstock on the FT79 is the same as the silver bolted on Epiphone retro name plate that is on modern Epi's. The Zenith has a mother of pearl stickpin under the Epi name on the headstock. BTW. My 1936 Zenith looks about the same as the photo that Wetdog posted of his 1937 Zenith. Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Epi FT-79 necks from the 1950s did have a very soft V but was not all that wide. What really distinguished the necks was their continued use of the French Heel. None of that Freedom Heel (or whatever the heck it was Gibson called their flatter version) stuff for Epi. But as has been noted, these flattops were really nothing to write home about. Not the best thought out top bracing I have run into. I think the only reason I own one is I got it dirt cheap - $400 out the door. I really did not pay much attention to it at first but over the years the thing kind of grew on me. For whatever reason I am now very attached to it. But they do have a place in rock history. Jimi Hendrix owned a 1951 Epi FT-79 and according to the story wrote all of the songs for "Electric Ladyland" on it. One of the cool things about this guitar though is that the pickguard was set into the top rather than glued down on top of it. Here are a couple of photos for those who asked. Note that this one has dot inlays on the board instead of the usual parallelograms. It maybe that towards the end Epi was throwing these guitars together with whatever they had to get orders filled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Mine looks the same except it natural. Mine has dots on the neck, also. First one I've seen that also has dots rather than the parallelograms. Mine too has grown on me. Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooseguy Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Hi Mooseguy- No Excellente in my collection. Wish I did, though! Jazzman Jeff aka QM Hi Jazzman; If interested in such a possible acquirement. ie. Excellente please contact me at d.dogs@verizon.net Moose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Hi Mooseguy- No Excellente in my collection. Wish I did, though! Jazzman Jeff aka QM Hi Mooseguy- Meant that figuratively, not literally. Have enough gitboxes in my collection at this point. But, thanks for the offer. Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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