duluthdan Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I know that I've seen this topic touched on before, but I would like to solicit pros and cons on the sometimes dreaded Adjustable Saddle that is found on many Gibson guitars from the mid-fifties to the mid-sixties. Is having an adjustable bridge a deal killer? Is it a tone robber? Can they easily be converted to fixed bridge? I wish I could post a picture, but I haven't figured out the method to do that with this old Apple laptop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Great question. I have been wondering about this myself, and am thinking about looking at a couple similarly priced vintage j-50s in my area - one with the adjustable bridge/saddle the other without. Lightnin' Hopkin's iconic J-50 had the adjustable bridge… it didn't seem to "rob his tone". A bigger concern for me is whether these guitars are more finicky and can lose intonation because the mechanism is too loose. I have never seen the adjustable model in person. But i suspect this might be something you would need to evaluate on a guitar-by-guitar basis depending on age/condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I had a 62 Epiphone Texan, and absolutely loved the tone on that one, particularly the low "E". It wasn`t the loudest of the breed however. I also owned a Terada made 2004 Non Macca model Texan, that was very loud, but too bright for my tastes. I don`t have any issues with the ADJ bridge, and think it just depends on the particular guitar. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Judge them on a case-by-case basis. I've done two adj conversions on the same guitar. The first was to put a bone insert into the rosewood adjustable saddle, and the second was to completely remove the adjustable bridge, its mechanism (including the inserts in the top), and the fairly thick ply bridgeplate. I went back to the original fixed bridge and maple bridgeplate that the guitar had when it was built in 1948-1950. Maybe it's an attempt to justify the cost of the change (maybe $350-$400 for the whole job), but I thought it improved the guitar significantly. Keep in mind that I wasn't changing the guitar FROM the way it was built. I was changing it back TO the way it was built, so I had no concerns about devaluing the guitar in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 a Adjustable bridge on a acoustic? yes ..its a deal killer.. then theres the tun o matic.. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyj Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I remember a long time ago having an LG0 which I converted with a Rosewood insert and a new saddle inside the insert - to my ears that improved the sound a little. The easiest solution to me is to remove the original saddle and mechanism, make a tight fitting insert that fits snugly then tack it down with a couple of dabs of glue and rout the insert for a saddle. That way a subsequent owner can easily revert back to adjustable by breaking up and pulling out the insert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichG Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I have a 66 Epiphone Cortez. It has the adjustable saddle. It sounds great. The only drawback is these had a plastic bridge which deforms over time. I've been looking for a used wood bridge that will accommodate the adjustable saddle and hardware but cannot find one so far. Because the footprint of the adjustable bridge/saddle is large, replacing it with a fixed bridge and saddle looks odd because of the size IMHO. I might have to do that anyway, but I'm holding off. The guitar plays great, but I'm thinking of selling it and the warped bridge is a red flag. It's also got the skinny 60's neck, which is the only reason I'd sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've owned four guitars with the adjustable bridge set up, two of which I still own: >1966 Epi Cortez with the plastic bridge. After 49 years, the plastic bridge remains in perfect condition, and I love the tone. >2005 Epi McCartney '64 Texan, made by Terada-Japan. Rosewood adjustable bridge. Again, love the tone of this one, too. In the past, I've converted a '65 B-25 from the plastic bridge to an ebony bridge. The change was made to correct the onset of structural damage. The result was no change in tone, other than a slight reduction in the strength of the bass. Still liked it enough to play it for twenty years. Also had a plastic-bridged '64 Epi Cortez which remained stock while I owned it. My take on these guitars: -They can sound great, with a dry & punchy fingerpicking tone. -If you like the tone, leave it alone if all is well structurally. -Don't ever dismiss one of these instruments out of hand - play it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Because the footprint of the adjustable bridge/saddle is large, replacing it with a fixed bridge and saddle looks odd because of the size IMHO. I might have to do that anyway, but I'm holding off. The guitar plays great, but I'm thinking of selling it and the warped bridge is a red flag. It's also got the skinny 60's neck, which is the only reason I'd sell it. Rich - When I converted the '65 B-25 to an ebony bridge, I thought it looked very good on the guitar. If you'd like to see a photo, PM me your email & I'll send it, as I'm too lazy to learn how to post pics on this board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I'm lucky enough to have 3 more or less similar adjustable-guitars here plus 1 with fixed saddle. All squares from the 60's. Been trying almost every variation there is and currently await the adj. metal-nylon thing. Well, the sound change from version to version, but the only one that can be decribed as a real sound-killer or dampener is the rosewood insert. Gibsons came with rosewood or ceramic saddles back then The ceramic almost amplifies my avatar guitar and is definitely louder than a wooden insert with ordinary sized bone saddle. Have to say the adjustables reputation is much worse that their actual sound - and I tend to believe it is based on logical/theoretical thinking rather than actual experience, but of course sonic taste plays in. A lot of the real and enchanting vintage G-flavors I've encountered came from ceramic saddles - and evidence is to be found many places on the Tube where fine rosewood-inserts are available too. Allow me to close with a little list of adjustable players. Though short, it speaks a quite loud and of course could be looonger : 1/ All Beatles acoustic steel-string-sounds up till The White Album. Count Give Peace a Chance from 1969 in. 2/ All early classic acoustic Stones stuff including the legendary Angie-intro, which huge crowds of Hummingbird-freaks use as measure-stick for the quintessential Bird-sound !!! 3/ All the well known and delicious ringing Donovan tunes from the 60's. 4/ The early golden age James Taylor (uses rosewood insert on some of his classics). 5/ And to end on a contemporary note, Gillian Welch, who seems the have a vintage metal-bone thing in her beloved J-50. (Think it's a 1950's something model). So let us not be too square about this topic - it wouldn't be fair, , , , or especially wise. . . Excuse me for not voting this time around, Duluth ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 As I have said, while not the greatest design idea in the history of Gibson it would not be a deal killer. If anything those skinny butt necks would be the deal killer for me. But if you are talking about something like an Epi Frontier or Texan (other than the very first ones) or a Hummingbird you do not have a lot of choice and it seems silly to avoid the guitars just because of the bridge. That said I would probably have both the bridge and the bridge plate replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasAK Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 In theory and listening to some, yes. Having played a couple the answer is no. One of the best sounding j45s my local dealer has had was a black 60s reissue with an adjustable bridge. That killed the theory and rhetoric. I would love to play one that had a ceramic saddle. My old j160 had a rosewood saddle: that with a laminated top and ladder brace was a tone killer. chasAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfbird Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I own a 1966-69 Gibson Hummingbird and it came with the adj bridge. It was falling apart so I opted for a solid rosewood bridge and bone saddle. I believe it sounds much better now. I also own a 1961 LG-3 with the adj. saddle. It sounds decent. But I did hear a 1959 (?) LG-3 with a solid bridge and bone saddle and it sounded much better. Could've been the guitar's construction, of course. It being a different year. For that reason, I've opted to keep mine the way it is. I could spend the money to tweak it and discover there's no improvement, or worse. Besides, it's in its original shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Allow me to close with a little list of adjustable players. Though short, it speaks a quite loud and of course could be looonger : 1/ All Beatles acoustic steel-string-sounds up till The White Album. Count Give Peace a Chance from 1969 in. 2/ All early classic acoustic Stones stuff including the legendary Angie-intro, which huge crowds of Hummingbird-freaks use as measure-stick for the quintessential Bird-sound !!! 3/ All the well known and delicious ringing Donovan tunes from the 60's. 4/ The early golden age James Taylor (uses rosewood insert on some of his classics). 5/ And to end on a contemporary note, Gillian Welch, who seems the have a vintage metal-bone thing in her beloved J-50. (Think it's a 1950's something model). So let us not be too square about this topic - it wouldn't be fair, , , , or especially wise. . . Excuse me for not voting this time around, Duluth ;-) But what you are listening to is recordings. Big difference between what you are hearing on your turntable and what you hear in your living room. C'mon, nobody ever bought a Donovan record because they could not get enough of his guitar. Hail Atlantis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 In theory and listening to some, yes. Having played a couple the answer is no. One of the best sounding j45s my local dealer has had was a black 60s reissue with an adjustable bridge. That killed the theory and rhetoric. This is an interesting point. We are used to hearing these bridges on guitars with non-scalloped bracing and a stiff laminate bridge plate. But we can now play guitars which while having the ADJ bridge also have modern Bozeman scalloped bracing and maple bridge plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 This is an interesting point. We are used to hearing these bridges on guitars with non-scalloped bracing and a stiff laminate bridge plate. But we can now play guitars which while having the ADJ bridge also have modern Bozeman scalloped bracing and maple bridge plate. You are right so far that even bad guitars can sound rather good recorded by a qualified engineer with decent gear. But I'm talking 1 on 1 real-life too. Fx there is a magnificent cherryburst 1964 ceramic saddled J-45 in another part of this town. It seems to spend it's life in the case nowadays - quite a shame as it really sings. Eeehh, by the way the exact same model as mister Leitch used. And make no mistake Zomb - we are a little, but growing group of serious Donovan-sound aficionados here. . . Between you and me : Whenever you get tired of Atlantis and its 5-chord guitar oozing from the J-box of the local bar, , , , zoom in on the piano. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hmmm, so what should I put on. Perhaps "Epistle to Dippy" or maybe "Jennifer Juniper." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubee Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I sat at Elderly when they had 3-4 early to mid-60s J-50s. The one with its original adjustable saddle was the best sounding one by a large margin. It was also a very powerful guitar, a lotta headroom. But that's likely just because it was a good guitar and the others weren't as good. I'd never turn down a great guitar that had an adj saddle, nor would I mess with it to try to make it 'better'. If it didn't sound good with its adj saddle, there's no guarantee it would improve with a fixed saddle, so I'd not buy it. I had a '65 Hummingbird that was killer with its adj saddle. They are out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hmmm, so what should I put on. Perhaps "Epistle to Dippy" or maybe "Jennifer Juniper." From a distance I wouldn't think JJ was your cup of tea, but the epistle, yes. Man I didn't know that one. Wiki says the single was released in the US only. Regarding his acoustic sound it was often treated differently from song to song, but his touch was always impressive. Was just about to post The Ballad of a Crystal Man, but perhaps it's too harsh. Took this one instead (tho the guitar sounds better on the ballad). Enjoy the ever working acoustic steel-string / double bass combo - But Jennifer J is brilliant. . And I surely don't hope no one grows over this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAOrQuUAxTc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichG Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Rich - When I converted the '65 B-25 to an ebony bridge, I thought it looked very good on the guitar. If you'd like to see a photo, PM me your email & I'll send it, as I'm too lazy to learn how to post pics on this board! PM sent. I can send you a picture of what my bridge is doing. I've heard it's not uncommon. It's a shame because the guitar is in excellent condition otherwise. I'm also not a picture posting kind of guy Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I can send you a picture of what my bridge is doing. I've heard it's not uncommon. It's a shame because the guitar is in excellent condition otherwise. I don't know why some of these plastic bridges go bad & others don't. Maybe excessive exposure to the sun? As mentioned, mine is still intact & stable after all these years, but I've seen others that curled, and others that discolored to a greyish hue. If you like the tone of the guitar, it's really worth fixing, imho. Will send the ebony bridge photo shortly (if our internet connection doesn't go down, which it does periodically!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I would love to play one that had a ceramic saddle. My old j160 had a rosewood saddle: that with a laminated top and ladder brace was a tone killer. My current Epi Cortez has a rosewood saddle, but I have two ceramic saddles from long ago in the parts box, and just purchased a Tusq brand made for these guitars as a drop-in alternative. Will someday get around to experimenting, but I would imagine these alternatives are going to be significantly crisper in sound than the rosewood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 For info on plastic bridges on a Gibson - replacing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 And another - with opinion. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZE72_bqgyO8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Here's a relatively new one in a Hummingbird reissue - in the hands of Greg Koch, guitar master. And the newly minted Donovan And one for Em7 - a great sounding early 'bird: and possibly one of the oddest sounding - a 60s Square with the Rosewood insert. and perhaps the most interesting reissue review I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 http://http://youtu.be/rq8Yc_RHkWQ And one for Em7 - a great sounding early 'bird: Yes, I know that particular Bird - in fact it's one of my favorites. Here it is in the hands of another guy : He btw. splendidly captures the feel of this semi-old tune. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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