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People milking rock star corpses any way they can? SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!

 

rct

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^ Did you expect anything different? Courtney has been making a living off his corpse for how many years now?

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Whilst I like Nirvana I do agree they were/ are ridiculously over-rated and many other equally good bands from that period never seemed to gain the notoriety they did, especially after Kurt shot himself. Dinosaur Jnr, Mudhoney and all those other grunge bands got somewhat eclipsed by Nirvana.

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yeah, I think Dinosaur Jr were my favourites of the whole grunge thing (which I liked generally, including Nirvana but not as much as quite a few others) - if only Kurt had been more upbeat, like say... Mr Mascis [biggrin]

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I am not a Nirvana fan, nor more specifically, a Cobain fan. I don't actively dislike them either. I never paid much attention to them but was certainly aware of them. I don't believe we were their target audience. The disaffected youth of that era found in him and his band a figurehead that gave voice to their angst & frustration. I think that accounts for their success and two decades later, still speaks to the current generation of kids who feel the same frustration and goes a long way toward explaining their longevity. I don't care for it, but I "get it."

 

Kurt often said that he didn't want to be the "voice of his generation," and that maybe entirely true. Based on accounts I've read of his life, I believe that he was indeed a full-blown junkie with all the attendant psychological problems that precede addiction.

 

I lost my oldest daughter to heroin addiction 16 months ago. What I saw and lived with her made Cobain look like an altar boy. They don't truly know what they want because the drugs cloud their judgement beyond the impairment they suffer from their mental health problems. You and I know there are answers but they are in a catch-22 and believe there's no way out. Their reality is quite different than yours and mine.

 

My daughter was an incredible lyricist. Reading what remains of her work can be funny, harrowing, frightening and enlightening. They were a small window into her soul and gave a glimpse of the workings of her mind at the time. But knowing the outcome makes reading them mostly a sad and heartbreaking experience. Obviously, she never achieved the success that Cobain did, and I have to give him credit for being able to channel his pain into something others could identify with on the scale he did while living with those demons.

 

As I said initially, I'm not a fan, but having lost a child to the same poor choices, and suffered through her pain with her, neither can I judge too harshly.

 

As for Courtney lining her pockets with his memory, yes, she's a class-A scumbag. But that description fit her pretty well before Kurt died. Tigers don't change their stripes.

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It's just more examples of how that whole "movement" was as much about image and posing as the previous glam, hairband era was. All these guys pretending that they were weighed down by their success. They worked very hard at acting and looking like they weren't trying. Many of their fans too. I remember people who would spend all day searching thrift stores for ugly clothes, just so they could look like they didn't care how they looked. [unsure]

 

At least the hair bands were honest in that they made no bones about enjoying the success that they worked so hard to achieve. Maybe some of the songs were shallow and cheesey. But most of the "grunge" songs weren't really saying anything more. They were a bunch of vague songs with a general pessimistic air of angst, gloom and doom.

 

Having said that, I actually like a lot of the music. Just not the "scene" that went along with it.

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Along with U2, Nirpvana are the most over rated bands of all time. They have about 3 songs I can stomach. People love them but for the life of me I can see why. People need to face what Kurt Cobain was, a junkie who wrote songs and was in a band. There are many like him, but most don't shoot themselves in the face with a shotgun.You showed us Kurt. I am sure your daughter is happy to grow up without a father. How horrible is your life when people adore you and your music sells. My advice to Kurt would have been if what you are doing is a chore and you are sick of fans who what a piece of you, go get a job at Burger King and no one will give a sh!t about you.

Correction, you mean Led Zepplin is the most overrated band of all time. They stole like 20+ songs from others and tried to take the credit for them. Nirvana completely changed the landscape of rock which had been stale and boring hair bands for 11 straight years until one song ushered in a new sound that everyone else copied. Zepplin, by contrast stole other artists work and put their names on top as if they wrote the songs.

 

When Nirvana did a cover they admitted it was, when Zepplin did they put in the credits they themselves wrote the words/music and then they try to pass the blame off on others is a laughable joke.

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People milking rock star corpses any way they can? SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!

 

rct

Kirk loved to tell tall tales, and it wouldnt surprise me if one or two stories actually did come from him, but it does not make it true. For the people bashing his suicide, i do not believe he did. They should Go back and re examine the evidence, he had so much drugs in his system he could not possibly have been awake to pull the trigger. He either died from an accidental overdose or someone murdered him. The shutgun he killed himself had no fingerprints, the gun casing had no fingerprints, the alleged suicide note had 2 different inks.

 

Too many things dont add up for it to be a suicide, it might not be murder, could be just too much partying, happens all the time with rock stars. But the evidence points to the fact kurt did not take his own life.

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I think the saddest, but hardest truth for people to accept, is that nobody really cares what, who, or why killed Cobain. Another Drive-Thru cashier given an opportunity to further himself, and he tossed it all for the hookers and blow. A very old, very tired, very sad story that did nothing but keep somebody else off some stages and record deals while he wasted his.

 

rct

 

DISCLAIMER: Before anyone feels the need to lecture me on the sad states of addicts and such, please do keep in mind I watched and tried and re-habbed and eventually lost my own brother and on a lesser scale several good buds through this life. My lack of compassion and outright skepticism is derived from direct experience, not a lack thereof.

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I think the saddest, but hardest truth for people to accept, is that nobody really cares what, who, or why killed Cobain. Another Drive-Thru cashier given an opportunity to further himself, and he tossed it all for the hookers and blow. A very old, very tired, very sad story that did nothing but keep somebody else off some stages and record deals while he wasted his.

 

rct

 

DISCLAIMER: Before anyone feels the need to lecture me on the sad states of addicts and such, please do keep in mind I watched and tried and re-habbed and eventually lost my own brother and on a lesser scale several good buds through this life. My lack of compassion and outright skepticism is derived from direct experience, not a lack thereof.

Kurt was no saint, he did abuse drugs, but how many great jazz artists, blues artists and other amazingly talented people self destruct also? As far the hooker comment that's news to me, everything i've ever researched said Courtney was the only one who strayed during their marriage. And if you feel that way about kurt than i guess joplin, morrison and hendrix all took studio time from more deserving people too right? Or is this just a moral majority jerry falwell type hack attempt to smear the name of an artist you dont personally like?

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I'm an equal opportunity hater of opportunity crappers.

 

Most of the people that put on a guitar or bass or sat behind drums and attempted to claw their way out of whatever ghetto they came from were given vast opportunity to do so, to take care of their families, to pay mom and dad back for the years of garage band crashing/feeding/driving all over creation, all without much in the way of marketable skills.

 

Lots and lots, like Cobain and the others you mentioned, ran into something they found far more important than anything else. More important than kids, spouses, security of any kind, more important than the blessing they had received as they went from nothing to something overnight, with precious little investment more than the same rehearsing and refining that thousands, maybe tens of thousands of others had done as well.

 

That more important thing, that total embodiement of ME ME ME, that is what killed them. Too bad for them, too bad for the squander, too bad for the people that might have turned that opportunity into security and prosperity for a whole lot of people instead of the quickest way to buy enough dope to off themselves.

 

If you'd like some assistance with where this is coming from, go back to my other post and read all the words, don't just react to the ones you don't like.

 

rct

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A very old, very tired, very sad story that did nothing but keep somebody else off some stages and record deals while he wasted his.

 

 

 

Not sure this would apply strictly to Cobain, it could really be said of anyone who's life was cut short by excess... Hendrix ( drugs and alcohol), Joplin ( heroin ) , Moon ( alchohol )... countless Celebrities ..Farley, Belushi..on and on and on.

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I'm an equal opportunity hater of opportunity crappers.

 

Most of the people that put on a guitar or bass or sat behind drums and attempted to claw their way out of whatever ghetto they came from were given vast opportunity to do so, to take care of their families, to pay mom and dad back for the years of garage band crashing/feeding/driving all over creation, all without much in the way of marketable skills.

 

Lots and lots, like Cobain and the others you mentioned, ran into something they found far more important than anything else. More important than kids, spouses, security of any kind, more important than the blessing they had received as they went from nothing to something overnight, with precious little investment more than the same rehearsing and refining that thousands, maybe tens of thousands of others had done as well.

 

That more important thing, that total embodiement of ME ME ME, that is what killed them. Too bad for them, too bad for the squander, too bad for the people that might have turned that opportunity into security and prosperity for a whole lot of people instead of the quickest way to buy enough dope to off themselves.

 

If you'd like some assistance with where this is coming from, go back to my other post and read all the words, don't just react to the ones you don't like.

 

rct

Its easy to sit in judgement of another. But if you suddenly became famous and wealthy how would you handle it? Everyone can say they would be the same rational, responsible person they were before. But temptations are everywhere when you have that much money. Look at Clapton, the beatles, the stones, etc. Then you have the roller coaster of riding in a bus all night, so you take something to fall asleep, then you have to be up early so you take something to wake up. It could even be legally prescribed, but sometime you may not have the time nor the access to the same medications so what to do? Try a few beers to sleep, try some illegal drug to wakeup. Heck, even Elton John/elvis and many others got on this cycle.

 

For me personally, i am glad Morrison, Joplin, Hendrix and Cobain made the music they did, despite the drugs. I dont consider their lives wasted, they made incredible music until their excesses took over. In the 60s education on drugs/alchohol/ciggs was still in its infancy so to speak. Also, one could easily associate some foul play with the death of jim morrison, there was no autopsy performed so we only had the word of then gf pamela courson.

 

My point is this, anyone can claim money wouldnt change them. Anyone can claim they wouldnt fall into the partying trap, but if you were suddenly surrounded by groupies, parties, and perhaps had to live in a bubble of only your hotel room because of crazed fans, the bottle may look more and more enticing. I once read that 75% of people who win the lottery end up in jail or rehab within 5 years. A telling statistic indeed.

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Its easy to sit in judgement of another. But if you suddenly became famous and wealthy how would you handle it? Everyone can say they would be the same rational, responsible person they were before. But temptations are everywhere when you have that much money. Look at Clapton, the beatles, the stones, etc. Then you have the roller coaster of riding in a bus all night, so you take something to fall asleep, then you have to be up early so you take something to wake up. It could even be legally prescribed, but sometime you may not have the time nor the access to the same medications so what to do? Try a few beers to sleep, try some illegal drug to wakeup. Heck, even Elton John/elvis and many others got on this cycle.

 

For me personally, i am glad Morrison, Joplin, Hendrix and Cobain made the music they did, despite the drugs. I dont consider their lives wasted, they made incredible music until their excesses took over. In the 60s education on drugs/alchohol/ciggs was still in its infancy so to speak. Also, one could easily associate some foul play with the death of jim morrison, there was no autopsy performed so we only had the word of then gf pamela courson.

 

My point is this, anyone can claim money wouldnt change them. Anyone can claim they wouldnt fall into the partying trap, but if you were suddenly surrounded by groupies, parties, and perhaps had to live in a bubble of only your hotel room because of crazed fans, the bottle may look more and more enticing. I once read that 70% of people who win the lottery end up in jail or rehab within 5 years. A telling statistic indeed.

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rct,

 

Like you, I lost someone very close to me (see my post above) to addiction, so there's no need for me to lecture you on the "sad state of addicts." Frankly, I doubt either of us could tell the other anything we don't already know from experience. Some are able to retain the anger for what the addict did to our families and us individually. I genuinely envy you in the fact that you are able to take the stance that you do. I wish I could, but perhaps for me, it's just too soon. I remember her pain too vividly to write off others suffering from their addictions. It would save me a lot of pain were I able to.

 

But neither do I suggest we coddle, enable, pity or glorify them. Understanding is enough. How each of us deal with and react to that understanding is what is right for us, and yours is no more or less valid than anyone else's.

 

So sorry for the loss of your brother and the friends that succumbed to their addictions. I know the Hell you must've been through.

 

Take care...

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rct,

 

Like you, I lost someone very close to me (see my post above) to addiction, so there's no need for me to lecture you on the "sad state of addicts." Frankly, I doubt either of us could tell the other anything we don't already know from experience. Some are able to retain the anger for what the addict did to our families and us individually. I genuinely envy you in the fact that you are able to take the stance that you do. I wish I could, but perhaps for me, it's just too soon. I remember her pain too vividly to write off others suffering from their addictions. It would save me a lot of pain were I able to.

 

But neither do I suggest we coddle, enable, pity or glorify them. Understanding is enough. How each of us deal with and react to that understanding is what is right for us, and yours is no more or less valid than anyone else's.

 

So sorry for the loss of your brother and the friends that succumbed to their addictions. I know the Hell you must've been through.

 

Take care...

 

Mine was...almost 20 years ago now, some miles up the expressway. Yours I know of, and I truly am sorry. We are not that far apart as the crows fly.

 

Time makes it all work out to what it should be. In our case, it has resolved as a lot of anger, a lot of sadness over lots of waste, lying, more waste, more lying, and above all the wasted efforts of a lot of people. Yours may resolve in other ways for you and yours, and I hope it does sooner rather than later.

 

rct

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Its easy to sit in judgement of another. But if you suddenly became famous and wealthy how would you handle it? Everyone can say they would be the same rational, responsible person they were before. But temptations are everywhere when you have that much money. Look at Clapton, the beatles, the stones, etc. Then you have the roller coaster of riding in a bus all night, so you take something to fall asleep, then you have to be up early so you take something to wake up. It could even be legally prescribed, but sometime you may not have the time nor the access to the same medications so what to do? Try a few beers to sleep, try some illegal drug to wakeup. Heck, even Elton John/elvis and many others got on this cycle.

 

I sit in judgement of the decision. I know what I did, and I know what I would have done with even more. I know what my experience was, and it was no different than it was for any of these other guys, they just made a whole lot more money than me and they got recorded before I did.

 

At some point, somewhere along the way, you decide. Everyone decides. After that, there is no drama, no glory, no pity, no "poor me". It's a decision, like any other decision. It's bad enough when the decider can't live with the decision, it's even worse when the living can't even grasp that it became no more than deciding what was more important. That great "god" Hendrix decided that doing whatever he was doing to get by was more important than NOT doing it, and he died in a bathtub. Literally THOUSANDS of guitar players have soldiered on through the same blah blah tour bus blah blah sleep blah blah hotel blah blah interviews and on and on. They decided NOT to do that, and they are still alive to tell about it.

 

To answer your question, I would be the same person with the same work ethic, and in no way would I find anything more important than the security of the money coming from doing what I loved to do. To pose the question as though there is no other answer than to end up with a shotgun in yer face is not only disengenious, it is enabling. All it takes is one good decision, for the kid, for the Mrs, for mom and dads retirement, just one good decision and Kurt would still be bashing at his Jagstangers or whatever they were and we wouldn't have the foo fighters and the big giant bass player would still have a job. ONE DECISION.

 

rct

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To me Nirvana is just another decent band that has taken this disproportionate legend status. I do not and never have identified with whatever "message" they were trying to convey.

 

I think Cobain put on this show that impressed young teenagers, at the time I was 21 or so and while I liked the music I could not relate to what their affliction was.

 

I do consider Nirvana Unplugged in NY a masterpiece. I like it a lot.

 

And by the way while I understand and disliked how hair metal became so bloated and ridiculous it wasn't always that way. Grunge suffered a similar fate when watered down bands followed suit.

 

I cannot imagine throwing away fame and fortune and family and your life, I have more respect for Bret Michaels than I ever will for Cobain. Bret keeps touring and working despite of heavy health issues and while I actually I don't think that's good for him he earns my respect.

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And by the way while I understand and disliked how hair metal became so bloated and ridiculous it wasn't always that way.

 

Talking down hard and bad on hair metal is cool. Playing it was about a zillion times cooler, so I always know the crap talkers didn't do it! Grunge was the answer to a problem that didn't exist, same as it ever was.

 

rct

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I was really never a fan of these guys, but I thought it was tragic when Curt off'd himself like that. So many things to live for,, why do that???

 

 

in comparison though what comes to mind for some reason and equally as tragic was Brad Delp (from the Band Boston) his demise wasn't quite as spectacular,

 

he suffocated with intentional CO2 poisoning as I recall.. a very troubled guy turns out..

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Talking down hard and bad on hair metal is cool. Playing it was about a zillion times cooler, so I always know the crap talkers didn't do it! Grunge was the answer to a problem that didn't exist, same as it ever was.

 

rct

 

I tell my younger friends to try and play some of those licks and solos, not many come through. We can all however play Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

IMO Grunge was like taking a strong antibiotic for a common cold, it killed the bad things but also a lot of good things, like you say there was no problem to be fixed. A few glam bands were ridiculous but not all of them, not only that, hard rock music had started shifting to bands like Guns n' Roses, L.A. Guns and Skid Row none of them glam bands, I really thought that is were things were headed.

 

The other scene was Thrash Metal that somehow became popular considering it was an extreme genre back then, I guess Metallica leading helped the popularity of that movement. All Thrash metal bands suffered significantly after Grunge became popular.

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I sit in judgement of the decision. I know what I did, and I know what I would have done with even more. I know what my experience was, and it was no different than it was for any of these other guys, they just made a whole lot more money than me and they got recorded before I did.

 

At some point, somewhere along the way, you decide. Everyone decides. After that, there is no drama, no glory, no pity, no "poor me". It's a decision, like any other decision. It's bad enough when the decider can't live with the decision, it's even worse when the living can't even grasp that it became no more than deciding what was more important. That great "god" Hendrix decided that doing whatever he was doing to get by was more important than NOT doing it, and he died in a bathtub. Literally THOUSANDS of guitar players have soldiered on through the same blah blah tour bus blah blah sleep blah blah hotel blah blah interviews and on and on. They decided NOT to do that, and they are still alive to tell about it.

 

To answer your question, I would be the same person with the same work ethic, and in no way would I find anything more important than the security of the money coming from doing what I loved to do. To pose the question as though there is no other answer than to end up with a shotgun in yer face is not only disengenious, it is enabling. All it takes is one good decision, for the kid, for the Mrs, for mom and dads retirement, just one good decision and Kurt would still be bashing at his Jagstangers or whatever they were and we wouldn't have the foo fighters and the big giant bass player would still have a job. ONE DECISION.

 

rct

Again, look at the evidence. Kurt supposedly killed himself, yet there was no fingerprints on the gun, and no fingerprints on the shotgun casing. The alleged suicide note had two different inks, also, kurt told courtney if he ever did something he would have his id on him to verify without a doubt who he was. The police tho, went inside his home, pulled his id and brought it to the crime scene and placed it near the corpse, the officer admitted this openly. Why? A little unusual for an officer to do this dont you think? If you say the decision was to quit drugs fine, but if youre saying the decision was to stay alive, again i say Look at the evidence. All of the evidence points to a cover up and the fact he did not take his own life intentionally.

 

Btw, in jan 97 my friend alan pearl died of a heart attack brought on my severe drug use. In july 2000, my friend robert calo was murdered by a drug dealer and thrown off the bandwagon bridge in my town of woonsocket for less than 5 dollars in a dispute over price and Also my friend danny committed suicide after he was hooked on drugs. Of all three, bobby was the one i was closest to, it still stings to this day, my mother cant even talk about him because she loved him like a son. I know loss, i know pain, im 45, ive lived to see several friends destroy themselves, but you cannot say 100% that Kurt took his own life. It pisses me off when people do, the evidence is completely contradictory.

 

Musical taste is subjective, the facts of his passing are dubious at best, and for me, he spoke to my generation. Generation x, a pissed off generation that doesnt have it as good as our fathers/grandfathers did.

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In response to Riffster, luckily, Pearl Jam & Dinosaur Jr kept the guitar solo alive [smile]

 

Despite the grunge wave, a lot of 'rock' bands were still popular. PS, Metallica & AC/DC still sold a truck load of records and concert tickets in the 90's!

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