Are we all antiques?

[rct]

My favorite music is what was popular when I was in my teens and 20s. If that's typically the case, I kind of feel sorry for today's teens and 20-somethings. Are they still going to be into EDM when they're 50?

 

uh...yes. That's how it works! I would fully expect anyone born at any time to hold onto those things of their youth, some to a large degree, some not so much.

 

My mother passed away this weekend after a mercifully brief struggle, but a long time illness. In all the time we had to talk, telling me of the passing of everything from her life was what really made it easier for her to pass herself. And yes, close to 80, she was still into the Andrews Sisters and Elvis, just as one would expect. Sure, she saw Dark Side Of The Moon at The Spectrum, but she was an Elvis girl to the end.

 

rct

[Cougar]

Sorry to hear about your mom, rct. Plus, I always appreciate your insights into this business.

[rct]

Sorry to hear about your mom, rct. Plus, I always appreciate your insights into this business.

 

Thank you.

 

This business is not for us to consume. But, if people can get past some things, it is for us to create. Most would be surprised to see the dads and granddads making some of just the most beautiful sounds on pop radio. Taylor does write, but the old guys that build the song and move the parts around are just as important to what we hear as the writing. Same goes for a whole bunch of them churning out the stuff of todays youth, and in LosNashVegasYorkAngeles.

 

Tom Dowd was an old dude when he was making lots of the music of our youth. Same as it ever was.

 

rct

[Silvercrow]

Hey Brian, I think you missed my point.

 

"Has any rock act that's members under 50 years of age filled MSG or Albert Hall in the last 20 years?"

 

I'm also very happy to been born when I was.

An old dinosaur here too. Here in SoCal we had major concerts every week. Whether it be The Long Beach Arena or The LA Forum or Santa Monica Civic.

I'm lucky enough to say I've seen every band I ever wanted to see that was alive when I was old enough to go to concerts.

I saw Led Zeppelin with a $7.50 price on my ticket in '77.

 

Carry on

 

And I didn't mean to come off harsh or condesending! I try to limit my "Ready, Fire, Aim" moments...but sometimes it happens. You are right, I had a preconception and ran with it...apologies for that!

 

Music is near and dear to my heart, as I am certain it is with all of us. Guitar particularly, is something I treasure, desired and sought from literally six years old to this very moment. Having the blessed opportunity to gig for a good portion of my life, and doubly blessed by seeing (IMO) the best bands of the rock&roll "growth" and subjectively speaking "peak" period, people playing live music using actual instruments is and always will be exciting for me! This is my 'point of reference'.

 

Ironically, yesterday I listened to a local station, namely WXPN, that regularly showcases new bands / music. I tried to listen objectively but man, electronica / sampling is just lost on me, by and large; and the bands that actually play instruments...over half of what I've heard a second year musician could do with no problem. Lyrics that are not only uninspired, but downright juvenile. Little virtuosity. BUT...

 

there are some bands that are coming on the 'scene' and putting out some pretty terrific stuff. That alone will keep me searching and listening!

 

The guy I'm co-writing that song with is 36 years old. Rhythm guitarist in our originals band of a decade ago. His Dad is slightly older than me- and exposed him to much of the music I grew up on. I told him one time that "...it's hard to get enthusiastic about contemporary bands when you grew up on Emerson Lake & Palmer, Traffic, Alan Parsons, Pink Floyd, Renaissance, Hendrix, Joplin" etc. Because of his exposure and 'reference', he understands what I'm saying.

 

Understanding that musical taste is subjective, this is, good or bad, my point of reference, and ultimately I'm glad for it!

 

YEAH...I'M AN ANTIQUE!

 

Brian

[Zentar]

For 90 years at U of SC Gamecock home football games(80,000+ people) all the music was from its large marching band. Then in 1980 the school started playing a crowd teasing recording over the loudspeaker system of the song "2001: A Space Odessy" from the movie to announce the team entrance.

Just recently over the loudspeaker the school began playing a recording of the techno song "Sandstorm" that makes the student section go nuts. The marching band gets pushed further and further into the background. People don't seem to appreciate that a 120 member marching band is an amazing thing to hear live. They have a Tuba section with a bunch of tubas that cost $10,000 a piece.

Wonder how long before the marching band is ditched?

Then eventually they'll ditch football for soccer because it's becoming more popular in the US and will continue to get more popular. The future is soccer. Football is so Elvis and passe'.

Things change over time but sadly not always for the better.

The day will come when even Elvis is a distant memory.

[rct]

For 90 years at U of SC Gamecock home football games(80,000+ people) all the music was from its large marching band. Then in 1980 the school started playing a crowd teasing recording over the loudspeaker system of the song "2001: A Space Odessy" from the movie to announce the team entrance.

Just recently over the loudspeaker the school began playing a recording of the techno song "Sandstorm" that makes the student section go nuts. The marching band gets pushed further and further into the background. People don't seem to appreciate that a 120 member marching band is an amazing thing to hear live. They have a Tuba section with a bunch of tubas that cost $10,000 a piece.

Wonder how long before the marching band is ditched?

Then eventually they'll ditch football for soccer because it's becoming more popular in the US and will continue to get more popular.

 

I don't think that what people appreciate has anything to do with it.

 

The college is in it to make money, not provide live music in order to stroke the integrity of the 7 musicians that have ever gigged sitting in the crowd. They don't care what you want, they care about building the surplus while milking future parents of tuition, board, books, meals, transportation, and miscellanous fees. If they can use a 14.99 CD pumped out of a 500 dollar sound system it is way better than the overhead of the band, pretty simple.

 

rct

[RobertAndersson]

This topic can obviously be adressed from many angles.

 

I have two more:

 

First: here in Sweden, streaming music has taken over completely. Very few makes money from recordings nowadays. To make a living as musician, you have to play concerts. So now there are lots of great bands touring all the time, they even come to my small town where big artists never stopped ten years ago. So live music is actually getting stronger!

 

Second: I know quite a lot of people who seriously cannot see the difference between a live performance and play/singback! And if you ask them, they normally don't care. If I get annoyed by excess use of autotuned voices, the same persons don't hear the difference or care about it. This can make me pessimistic about the future in music.

 

//Robert

[Guest Farnsbarns]

 

 

First: here in Sweden, streaming music has taken over completely. Very few makes money from recordings nowadays.

 

Being rather close to the lady in charge of royalties for one of the major labels, including Sweden as a region, I can assure you this isn't true. The labels do very nicely from digital distribution, as do the artists. Think about it, their costs are slashed.

 

They had to provide their catalog to a new, rather well known streaming service recently. They pressed a button. Before digital distribution the cost of this action alone would have been millions. They also recieve money for every stream, not just once for the sale of a CD.

 

This whole thing is a bit of a myth.

[Zentar]

here in Sweden, streaming music has taken over completely. Very few makes money from recordings nowadays. To make a living as musician, you have to play concerts. So now there are lots of great bands touring all the time, they even come to my small town where big artists never stopped ten years ago. So live music is actually getting stronger!

 

//Robert

 

This is a big point. People love live music so why is computer techno music a driving force now?

[RobertAndersson]

Being rather close to the lady in charge of royalties for one of the major labels, including Sweden as a region, I can assure you this isn't true. The labels do very nicely from digital distribution. Think about it, their costs are slashed.

 

They had to provide their catalog to a new, rather well known streaming service recently. They pressed a button. Before digital distribution the cost of this action alone would have been millions. They also recieve money for every stream, not just once for the sale of a CD.

 

This whole thing is a bit of a myth.

 

Your remarks are very interesting, yet I'm not convinced because the message from musicians and their organisations has been that streaming services like Spotify (the market leader in Sweden) pay very bad. I have my own music on all streaming services and it pays almost nothing compared to selling records. Or do you by digital distribution mean iTunes where you actually buy a digital copy, because that pays off OK?

 

Perhaps there is a difference between labels and artists? Old music and new?

 

//Robert

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Your remarks are very interesting, yet I'm not convinced because the message from musicians and their organisations has been that streaming services like Spotify (the market leader in Sweden) pay very bad. I have my own music on all streaming services and it pays almost nothing compared to selling records. Or do you by digital distribution mean iTunes where you actually buy a digital copy, because that pays off OK?

 

Perhaps there is a difference between labels and artists? Old music and new?

 

//Robert

 

Well, you will recieve very little per play but if the listener listens again next week you'll recieve the same very little again. If you sell a record (or a download) that's it. One payment.

[RobertAndersson]

This is a big point. People love live music so why is computer techno music a driving force now?

 

I think EDM attracts the big masses that don' t go to see live music or are not that passionate about music. My old parents like Swedish House Mafia and Avicii.

 

Also, in my country I would say that radio plays a big part. Both commercial and public service favour EDM and other pop music of today's fashion. Major stations play only single percentage of rock music. Therefore, rock doesn't get through to the less initiated.

 

//Robert

[RobertAndersson]

Well, you will recieve very little per play but if the listener listens again next week you'll recieve the same very little again. If you sell a record (or a download) that's it. One payment.

 

That is true. For some contracts I get 0.000x GBP for each stream, so every 50.000 stream or so I get paid for one record.

 

//Robert

[Guest Farnsbarns]

That is true. For some contracts I get 0.000x GBP for each stream, so every 50.000 stream or so I get paid for one record.

 

//Robert

 

Sounds about right. You're collecting your money much slower, but for longer. Depending on who you are each download or CD will have an average of 6 pirates made from it. If we round up/down a little to keep the maths simple, once the original copy has been played 10000 times, then the same for each pirate made, you're out of pocket on the record vs the stream. Then there's the random nature of streaming, receiving money when your record is played to someone who wouldn't otherwise have heard it or bought it has to be good, then the promotion factor of the random nature. And producing and delivering mechanical copies had a huge expense attached, the label used to take that out before you saw your percentage.

 

I think a lot of the folks who are concerned about the digital revenue path really havent thought it through.

 

I'm not arguing for arguments sake. I hope I've positived-up your view, if only a little. :D

[Tman5293]

A lot of debate and good posts here. Too much for me to concentrate enough to respond to everything. So I'll just post some random, disorganized thoughts:

 

I try to be open minded to all art and music, regardless to whether or not I personally like it. I do like a lot of the newer stuff coming out even though much of it is not great "guitar" music. A lot of todays "pop" stars that get slammed on sites like this (Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, Pharrell Williams, Megan Trainor etc.) are all very trained musicians who know and work very hard at their craft. If most of us here were to sit next to them at a piano or with a guitar, and try to compete with what they can play, we would be embarrassed.

 

As far as that EDM stuff that Tman posted. Yeah, I could not even imagine sitting through a whole show of that. I could probably listen to some of it in small doses. But, I will admit there is a certain (but different) talent to putting on a show like that. It's more knowing how to navigate all the controls and blend everything in at just the right times. If you were to put me up on that stage with all that equipment, I would have no clue what to do and it would sound and look even worse that what we might think it sounds like now.

 

But one thing that really surprises me about this "younger" generation of music fans. How closed minded and opinionated some of them are. Just going by my own sons (aged 18, 23 and 25) and their peers. Most of these kids like what they like this week, and everything else"sucks" or is "old man music" or something like that. Even the songs they supposedly like, they're bound to change after about 30 seconds. They give no credit or even make any attempt to find any value in music that they have determined "sucks", regardless of whether it's new or old. It really depresses me because they are missing out on so much great stuff IMO.

 

Now to be fair, not all younger people are like this. And Ive made this point before...it's mostly fans (old or young) that are overly opinionated and closed minded. The people who actually learn to play music, usually appreciate the talent it takes to play or write a good piece or music, no matter the age, or style or genre.....

 

I'm one of the later types of younger people as are many of my friends. We will listen to anything and give it a fair chance before we decided whether or not we like it.

 

Well, this new (mostly rhythmic) form you've illuminated is still just one genre out of thousands, albeit a currently popular one. I expect the next generation will want something different. (Hopefully less electronic, less robotic. Maybe they'll go back to a new kind of folk, haha. ) I keep thinking of Dave Brubeck. He made a revolutionary change by breaking a standard "rule" and was wildly popular (well, he was a really good musician, too). But it's pretty rare that anyone messes around with 5/4 or 9/4 time signatures anymore (I guess since that's already been done - it was a major innovation at the time). Then, of course, there was atonal jazz. Different, popular with some, but not very long-lived. I think there's a reason music tends to swing back to simpler forms with, you know, chord changes and things, adhering to the "laws" of music theory (it's physics, after all). Most people like music to be pleasing, not jarring.

 

 

 

Right. All art is ever transforming. Some artists are always looking for new, innovative ways to express themselves. Still, old art doesn't die. Ars longa, vita brevis!

 

Now, the music business, that's really been undergoing major changes for decades. We still have the select major groups with huge $promotional$ expenses, but at the same time there are now millions of musicians (of various talents) creating CD-ready music in their garage and home studio. I guess they're typically not really part of the business, but there's a heck of a lot of free music out there, which, at a minimum, is available. Most isn't that good, but there are exceptions.

 

My favorite music is what was popular when I was in my teens and 20s. If that's typically the case, I kind of feel sorry for today's teens and 20-somethings. Are they still going to be into EDM when they're 50?

 

I think my generation will continue to listen to and develop EDM well past our 50s. That doesn't mean we can't listen to anything else. My group of friends all enjoy listening to EDM but we also love the classics. We can just as easily listen to Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and Jimi Hendrix and we have no issue with it. We like everything from then until now. My favorite playlist on my phone that I listen to when I'm driving contains music from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, and 10s. I know a lot of people my age that enjoy listening to music from all different genres and time periods.

 

Being a kid in the 60s you were commonly exposed to an incredible variety of music styles from Kate Smith and Frank Sinatra to Jimi Hendix. We saw big bands on TV. Mitch Miller and Ed Sullivan had every genre of music imaginable. Perry Como had a show. Hullabaloo was popular week days after school. You ended up hearing more styles of music than you were aware you heard.

However, all the instruments used in that music were real.

I decided not to listen to music that is virtual. Everyone needs to make that choice. Yes I bought Joe Walsh's new CD "Analog Man". I listened to what he had to say as well as his guitar.

 

I think we are heading into another "Dark Age" like Europe plummeted into after the Great Plagues and Barbarian Invasions. Mankind doesn't always evolve. Sometimes it de-evolves.

Remember hearing about the "Renaissance Period"? That came after "The Dark Ages".

It is not far fetched to think we will have other Dark Ages because we've had them before. We probably had people touting how great the Dark Ages were back then too. Look how we are having new Plagues like Ebola and Hiv. Look how we are being inundated with great masses never seen in the West. We may already be in a Neo Dark Age and not know it.

Music may be the perfect indicator to show we are now de-evolving. As we go into decline so does our music.

 

No. You're just old and closed minded. A computer can just as easily be an instrument as a guitar. I guarantee that despite you being a "real musician" you could not make music inside a DAW like Ableton Live. It takes real talent and skill to make electronic music and not just anyone can do it.

 

This is a big point. People love live music so why is computer techno music a driving force now?

 

It's a driving force because people my age enjoy it. There are so many different genres of EDM and electronic music now. Every genre has it's own style and feel. They are forms of music whether you choose to accept it or not.

 

I think EDM attracts the big masses that don' t go to see live music or are not that passionate about music. My old parents like Swedish House Mafia and Avicii.

 

Also, in my country I would say that radio plays a big part. Both commercial and public service favour EDM and other pop music of today's fashion. Major stations play only single percentage of rock music. Therefore, rock doesn't get through to the less initiated.

 

//Robert

 

I'm passionate about music and I love EDM. It depends on what kind of music you're passionate about and whether or not you're narrow minded. To me, music is music. There is no right or wrong kind of music. If I enjoy it I'll listen to it.

[RobertAndersson]

I'm not arguing for arguments sake. I hope I've positived-up your view, if only a little. :D

 

[the dog]

When I talk to my kids I feel like an antique.

 

I told them when I was young we only had black and white TV and we actually had to get off the couch and turn a dial on the TV to change the channel.

Our antenna was on the top of the TV and if the channel was coming in a little snowy someone would have to get off the couch and go turn the antenna a little bit. And when you grabbed the antenna and the TV came in better you had to stay there and hold so everyone could watch with better reception at least to the next commercial.

 

yeah I feel like an antique.

 

sorry to hijack thread...needed some humor....

[cody78]

In the same way that countless musicians throughout the centuries have melded various disparate pre-written melodies into "Medleys" and 'classical' conductors assume the role of the 'General Assembler/Orchestrator' of works by 16th/17th/18th/19th/20th C. composers the (modern) DJ's function AFAIK is to use previously composed musical works and turn them into some new/fresh musical form which can (and will) be enjoyed and appreciated by the audience assembled.

 

Few of the really legendary 'classical' conductors wrote (of have yet written) musical works to rival those of, say, Bach or Beethoven, yet they are still held in the highest regard for their own Greatness in their own field.

 

DJs? Much the same.

 

Pip.

 

Really? I have to strongly disagree with you here.

 

You can't compare a DJ to a classical composer as the skill, devotion and hours that it takes a composer to achieve that level of musicianship makes most other musicians look dumb.

 

I'm reminded, I was watching the film 'The Pianist' once and at the end there is a piece by Chopin. After the film finished I turned over and the music show Later with Jools Holland was on and the bands playing looked like a joke in comparison to the great Chopin piece.

 

Most kinds of music I enjoy, but the beauty of classical music and jazz is that it is all about the music and played by musicians who have reached a level most of us dream of and most contemporary musicians never achieve.

 

Also, many 20th century composers reached a level that was equal to that of Bach or Handel. Some went into more complex and new areas than had been explored before. Listen to Krzystof Penderecki, Charles Ives, John Adams, Gyorgy Kurtag or even Arnold Schoenberg for some incredible modern approaches to classical music.

 

Really, the music you like is a very personal thing and there is no right or wrong. I can listen to the Pixies followed by Penderecki and even though the Pixies aren't of the same level of musicianship I enjoy them both the same.

[cody78]

Zappa

 

McLaughlin

[pippy]

Really? I have to strongly disagree with you here.

You can't compare a DJ to a classical composer...

With the very greatest respect (I assure you), cody, if you re-read my post you'll notice that I didn't compare DJs with composers; I compared DJs with conductors.

The difference between being the writer of the piece to be performed and the person who has the task of deciding on the precise manner in which the work (as scored) will be interpreted, orchestrated, and performed is truly enormous.

 

Furthermore I agree with each of the salient points you make in your post.

 

Pip.

[Tman5293]

With the very greatest respect (I assure you), cody, if you re-read my post you'll notice that I didn't compare DJs with composers; I compared DJs with conductors.

The difference between being the writer of the piece to be performed and the person who has the task of deciding on the precise manner in which the work (as scored) will be interpreted, orchestrated, and performed is truly enormous.

 

Furthermore I agree with each of the salient points you make in your post.

 

Pip.

 

If anything, modern electronic music producers are very similar to classical composers. In fact, I see them as one in the same. They are creating entire musical pieces on their own. I believe that qualifies as composing.

[pippy]

...modern electronic music producers are very similar to classical composers. In fact, I see them as one in the same. They are creating entire musical pieces on their own. I believe that qualifies as composing.

In which case I will happily admit that I was mistaken.

 

Could you expand on this point, please, Tman.

It was my understanding that they generally re-invent ways to orchestrate previously scored/written/recorded music and meld them into a 'new work' which is then performed (live) to an audience rather than actually scoring all the new works to be performed from a blank sheet of Ms. themselves.

If they write - i.e. compose - the music themselves then they are of course, by definition, composers.

 

If they choose to use works composed by other parties then they are, in effect, working as a musical form of a 'mixer-compositor' rather than as a 'composer'.

 

An example of this - and a serious question;

My favourite interpretation of (themes from) G. Bizet's 'Carmen' is that scored by Pablo de Sarasate in his 'Fantasia'.

To whom do you feel the majority of the admiration should be directed?

To Bizet for having written such wonderful (if oft-slighted) melodies or to Sarasate for having transformed them into a 12 minute virtuoso tour-de-force?

 

 

There is neither a 'Right' nor a 'Wrong' answer, BTW (IMO).

Both views are equally valid ('perhaps') but their validity can be the subject of friendly discourse.

I have mine. Others will have theirs.

Let's have a beer and chat about it!

 

P.

[Tman5293]

In which case I will happily admit that I was mistaken.

 

Could you expand on this point, please, Tman.

It was my understanding that they generally re-invent ways to orchestrate previously scored/written/recorded music and meld them into a 'new work' which is then performed (live) to an audience rather than actually scoring all the new works to be performed from a blank sheet of Ms. themselves.

If they write - i.e. compose - the music themselves then they are of course, by definition, composers.

 

If they choose to use works composed by other parties then they are, in effect, working as a musical form of a 'mixer-compositor' rather than as a 'composer'.

 

An example of this - and a serious question;

My favourite interpretation of (themes from) G. Bizet's 'Carmen' is that scored by Pablo de Sarasate in his 'Fantasia'.

To whom do you feel the majority of the admiration should be directed?

To Bizet for having written such wonderful (if oft-slighted) melodies or to Sarasate for having transformed them into a 12 minute virtuoso tour-de-force?

 

 

There is neither a 'Right' nor a 'Wrong' answer, BTW (IMO).

Both views are equally valid ('perhaps') but their validity can be the subject of friendly discourse.

I have mine. Others will have theirs.

Let's have a beer and chat about it!

 

P.

 

What you're describing is called sampling. It's where producers take bits of pre created music and use it in parts of their own tracks. This is fairly common within the electronic music industry. However, many producers make their own tracks entirely from scratch. The software used to do this is called a digital audio workstation or DAW. They come preloaded with many different instrument sounds and effects. The producer can then assign these effects and sounds to a MIDI controller which is usually a digital keyboard or drum pad. Using this method they can create entire compositions where they are essentially playing all of the parts themselves. Usually a drum beat is created first and then each instrument or synth piece is layered on top of it. A single producer could play the drums, guitar, synth, bass, etc. just by assigning each instrument to his MIDI keyboard one at a time. This eliminates the need for a band and the producer can create exactly what he/she wants without outside influence much like classical composers.

 

In many cases a producer will team up with vocalists and/or other producers for their tracks. Sometimes they do the vocals themselves. Here's some examples:

 

This is a track is called Ghosts and Stuff by the producer Deadmau5. The entire piece was written and composed by Deadmau5 except for the vocals which were done by Rob Swire. Deadmau5 is one of the most famous producers on the planet and he composes all of his tracks from scratch

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb-EwykPTv8

 

 

Here's another example from another extremely famous producer called Avicii. He does his own vocals so the entire track was written, composed, and produced by him. He also plays the acoustic guitar parts himself.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmIgg9De9hY

[Tman5293]

And lastly here's another example a track created entirely by the producer. This one has recently been a massive radio hit as were the last two when they were first released:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjHMDlAPMUw

[Zentar]

I think we will see a day when virtual actors play the characters in all our movies.

All our music is already trending to the virtual and digitally synthesized with sounds all designed to fool our brains into thinking we are hearing musical instruments. We will think we are being entertained and enlightened when in actuality we are being conned and fooled. When there is no more real music we will become savage beasts again with nothing to calm us. We eventually will become less civilized than livestock. We already have fake news and fake mass shootings.

Everything is becoming just one more hoax. Welcome to your new world.