Are we all antiques?

[Tman5293]

I think we will see a day when virtual actors play the characters in all our movies.

All our music is already trending to the virtual and digitally synthesized with sounds all designed to fool our brains into thinking we are hearing musical instruments. We will think we are being entertained and enlightened when in actuality we are being conned and fooled. When there is no more real music we will become savage beasts again with nothing to calm us. We eventually will become less civilized than livestock.

 

Is there any particular reason you are so delusional? Do you also believe aliens are coming to take over the world?

[arlum]

Just my opinion.....

 

Music isn't "real" if it doesn't sound "real". What I mean is ..... Part of the enjoyment of real music played by a real musician comes from the interplay between the guitarist and his / her guitar. It's pretty much impossible for a human being to achieve perfection and in many ways it's the obvious struggle put forth by the musician to control his instrument and force it to deliver the intended response to his mind / hands / technique / years of practice / etc. that gives a reality to the performance. Like a lion tamer with his lion or a painter with his brush perfection is the goal and the quality of the performance or work of art has a lot to do with how close they come to achieving the impossible goal.

 

My biggest issue with music released during the last ten to twenty years is the way so many performances turn out impossibly perfect. It's like the gods came down from the mountain and all decided to play the electric guitar. Digital vs. tape recording, live performances that utilize "corrective" effects", modern "cut and paste" techniques that are virtually unknowable to the ear. The recording software available today has had two major effects on current instrumentalists. 1). They all can sound like a god with a few courses in "how to use Pro Tools" and 2). They don't have the time or make the effort to reach the level of musicianship of the past because modern technology can fix any mistake and modern technology has a learning curve that takes a great deal of time away from an instrumentalists time that used to be spent on practice, practice, practice. Why spend three to five hours a day working to hone your craft in the effort to become as near to perfect as you can be when an hour of basic instrumental practice makes you good enough to lay down a track that you can then perfect using present day technology.

 

Why do I believe this ......... Current recordings are often released in a state of utter perfection. I'm not talking about the quality of the material, (be still my beating heart). I'm talking about the quality of the performance on the studio releases. Whether you like the songs or not you become enthralled into believing the next guitar god is currently coming through your speakers. You jump to look for their touring schedule, pay stupid prices for tickets, and arrive at the concert with baited breath. The lights dim, the audience quiets down and the band takes the stage.

 

Two hours later you find yourself on a sidewalk saying things like "What the F*** was that ?" "Was he a substitute ?" "I wanted to see the guy who played on the studio release." I wanted to see a guitar god in action." "I've had student guitarists that could run rings around that d***". You find the guitarist you paid big money to see couldn't have scored a two minute gig on Hullabaloo and would have only been invited to appear on Laugh-In if they'd agreed to wear diapers and a clown nose.

 

Today .... When it comes to an instrumentalist and his relationship with his instrument ..... technology is both angel and demon. It offers an easy way out of a lot of hard work, frustration, public failures, angst, harsh introspection, extreme personal demands and all the good and bad that go with the hard learning curve of man vs. instrument.. It also takes someone with limited skills and allows him or her to sound better than Les Paul, Jimmy Page, or Chet Atkins on the best day of their life.

 

Until they take the stage in a live venue.

[Tman5293]

Just my opinion.....

 

Music isn't "real" if it doesn't sound "real". What I mean is ..... Part of the enjoyment of real music played by a real musician comes from the interplay between the guitarist and his / her guitar. It's pretty much impossible for a human being to achieve perfection and in many ways it's the obvious struggle put forth by the musician to control his instrument and force it to deliver the intended response to his mind / hands / technique / years of practice / etc. that gives a reality to the performance. Like a lion tamer with his lion or a painter with his brush perfection is the goal and the quality of the performance or work of art has a lot to do with how close they come to achieving the impossible goal.

 

My biggest issue with music released during the last ten to twenty years is the way so many performances turn out impossibly perfect. It's like the gods came down from the mountain and all decided to play the electric guitar. Digital vs. tape recording, live performances that utilize "corrective" effects", modern "cut and paste" techniques that are virtually unknowable to the ear. The recording software available today has had two major effects on current instrumentalists. 1). They all can sound like a god with a few courses in "how to use Pro Tools" and 2). They don't have the time or make the effort to reach the level of musicianship of the past because modern technology can fix any mistake and modern technology has a learning curve that takes a great deal of time away from an instrumentalists time that used to be spent on practice, practice, practice. Why spend three to five hours a day working to hone your craft in the effort to become as near to perfect as you can be when an hour of basic instrumental practice makes you good enough to lay down a track that you can then perfect using present day technology.

 

Why do I believe this ......... Current recordings are often released in a state of utter perfection. I'm not talking about the quality of the material, (be still my beating heart). I'm talking about the quality of the performance on the studio releases. Whether you like the songs or not you become enthralled into believing the next guitar god is currently coming through your speakers. You jump to look for their touring schedule, pay stupid prices for tickets, and arrive at the concert with baited breath. The lights dim, the audience quiets down and the band takes the stage.

 

Two hours later you find yourself on a sidewalk saying things like "What the F*** was that ?" "Was he a substitute ?" "I wanted to see the guy who played on the studio release." I wanted to see a guitar god in action." "I've had student guitarists that could run rings around that d***". You find the guitarist you paid big money to see couldn't have scored a two minute gig on Hullabaloo and would have only been invited to appear on Laugh-In if they'd agreed to wear diapers and a clown nose.

 

Today .... When it comes to an instrumentalist and his relationship with his instrument ..... technology is both angel and demon. It offers an easy way out of a lot of hard work, frustration, public failures, angst, harsh introspection, extreme personal demands and all the good and bad that go with the hard learning curve of man vs. instrument.. It also takes someone with limited skills and allows him or her to sound better than Les Paul, Jimmy Page, or Chet Atkins on the best day of their life.

 

Until they take the stage in a live venue.

 

I understand what you're saying but I'm going to have to disagree. Modern recording equipment and software is not an instant bad player fixer. There are some fantastic upcoming guitarists out there with real skill and it shows on the recording.

 

There's a major point that you're not taking into consideration - the importance of the guitar in modern music. It's not what it used to be. In the 70s it was normal for a guitarist to run the stage on his own for 10+ minutes at time and every song on an album had to have a guitar solo. This is not true anymore. People got tired of the self glorification of past musicians and now you'll be lucky to hear a guitar solo on a single song on an album. The guitar has been moved to a supporting role as opposed to the leading role it once played. It doesn't take years of practice to lay down a simple rhythm part on a studio recording which is was most modern guitar parts are.

[pippy]

What you're describing is called sampling.......However, many producers make their own tracks entirely from scratch...

Thanks very much for the clarification and the explanation of the differences between those who sample and those who both write and produce their own material.

Now I understand your remarks concerning the similarities between "modern electronic music producers" and "classical composers".

 

Thanks also for taking the time to find and post the vid clips, Tman. They illustrate the points you make very well.

EDM producers/composers such as those posted above deserve respect for being the musicians they quite clearly are.

 

 

Pip.

[Silvercrow]

Just listened to Deadmau and Avicii. One of the things I love about the music I grew up with, and that is still being played today, is the changes that are heard, the "fluctuation", the dynamics, particularly in the drumbeat / percussion. With all the "advances" in sampling and electronica they can't (or won't?) replicate something like that? Both tracks / composers use that...I'll call it 'canned', drumbeat. Thump...thump..thump...thump ad nausea.

 

Of course, all just my opinion but when I heard the vocal compressed / corrected (robotic)as in these tracks, it reminds me of Cher in her latter performing life, which always cracked me up.

 

I'll continue to check things out and listen but so far very low ratings from the antique / dinosaur who's opinion means little, in Pennsylvania...

 

Back to you, TMan...

 

Brian

[ErickC]

Eh... renaissance composers would scoff at your average blues wanker's use of vibrato. Music changes all the time. You can still play whatever you want, however you want, so who cares?

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Eh... renaissance composers would scoff at your average blues wanker's use of vibrato. Music changes all the time. You can still play whatever you want, however you want, so who cares?

 

Not to mention the Diabolus in musica. Aka the augmented 4th. Aka the flatted 5th. Still banned in music at that time I believe.

 

I used to be into dance music (this was before Tman was born of course, I was amused by the notion that his generation invented it) starting with acid house parties in the late 80s and then to raves in the 90s (not the same as what these kids call a rave today, ended by the criminal justice act in the UK and no longer happening).

 

Then I grew out of taking chemicals and realised I actually thought it was dreadful musically. Sure repetitive and hypnotic seemed great when off one's head. When all my faculties were with me quickly lost interest.

 

I did a fare amount of production of such music. Very very easy. The one thing you do need is imagination but very little technical skill or knowledge required compared to playing an instrument in a band. IMO of course.

[saturn]

Not to mention the Diabolus in musica. Aka the augmented 4th. Aka the flatted 5th. Still banned in music at that time I believe.

 

I used to be into dance music (this was before Tman was born of course, I was amused by the notion that his generation invented it) starting with acid house parties in the late 80s and then to raves in the 90s (not the same as what these kids call a rave today, ended by the criminal justice act in the UK and no longer happening).

 

Then I grew out of taking chemicals and realised I actually thought it was dreadful musically. Sure repetitive and hypnotic seemed great when off one's head. When all my faculties were with me quickly lost interest.

 

I did a fare amount of production of such music. Very very easy. The one thing you do need is imagination but very little technical skill or knowledge required compared to playing an instrument in a band. IMO of course.

 

Reminds me of this Tosh.0 rave clip

 

[cody78]

With the very greatest respect (I assure you), cody, if you re-read my post you'll notice that I didn't compare DJs with composers; I compared DJs with conductors.

The difference between being the writer of the piece to be performed and the person who has the task of deciding on the precise manner in which the work (as scored) will be interpreted, orchestrated, and performed is truly enormous.

 

Furthermore I agree with each of the salient points you make in your post.

 

Pip.

 

Hi Pippy. Sorry, yes I did misread your post slightly!

[cody78]

If anything, modern electronic music producers are very similar to classical composers. In fact, I see them as one in the same. They are creating entire musical pieces on their own. I believe that qualifies as composing.

 

Similar in the fact they 'compose' a sound, but other than that I would say they are nothing alike.

 

I listened to those electronic tunes you posted and they are very basic and the musical techniques used are nothing much compared to say Jean Sibelius or the composers I listed earlier. They are not in the same league IMO. While I respect the electronic people 'compose' their pieces, I wouldn't say they are great by any stretch. That's not to say it's bad - it serves it's purpose much like a lot of pop music does. A lot of contemporary music is simple - everything from Bob Dylan to the Blackeyed Peas and a lot of the music I love isn't technically 'musically exceptional' in terms of composition i.e, Neil Young, The Band, Mogwai, but I wouldn't put any of these bands in the same league as classical composers as they are not alike IMO

 

This is musical composition at its finest;

 

[Tman5293]

Just listened to Deadmau and Avicii. One of the things I love about the music I grew up with, and that is still being played today, is the changes that are heard, the "fluctuation", the dynamics, particularly in the drumbeat / percussion. With all the "advances" in sampling and electronica they can't (or won't?) replicate something like that? Both tracks / composers use that...I'll call it 'canned', drumbeat. Thump...thump..thump...thump ad nausea.

 

Of course, all just my opinion but when I heard the vocal compressed / corrected (robotic)as in these tracks, it reminds me of Cher in her latter performing life, which always cracked me up.

 

I'll continue to check things out and listen but so far very low ratings from the antique / dinosaur who's opinion means little, in Pennsylvania...

 

Back to you, TMan...

 

Brian

 

I'll admit that a lot of electronic tracks use the same drum beat for the entire track such as those two that you listened to. But a lot of tracks do not. A very famous technique in electronic music, and EDM especially, is something called a drop. The tempo of the song will suddenly increase either slowly or very quickly and then the sound is cut all together for a split second followed by the music coming back in very strong and hard. That is probably the most commonly used dynamic in electronic music.

 

It is actually very hard to reproduce real instrument dynamics in electronic music which is why you will very rarely ever hear it.

[jdgm]

I guess it's true then.

 

The big bands will never come back.

 

I have a bass pupil who asked me a similar question a while ago...."John - do you think real rock music will ever return?"

 

It hasn't gone away in fact but as I wrote earlier, the tide comes in and goes out.

 

And social conditions change. When I was young all the older people hated rock and pop music and it wasn't accepted everywhere and ubiquitous like today.

 

But hasn't this old vs new argument been going on for centuries in some way or other?

[Silvercrow]

I'll admit that a lot of electronic tracks use the same drum beat for the entire track such as those two that you listened to. But a lot of tracks do not. A very famous technique in electronic music, and EDM especially, is something called a drop. The tempo of the song will suddenly increase either slowly or very quickly and then the sound is cut all together for a split second followed by the music coming back in very strong and hard. That is probably the most commonly used dynamic in electronic music.

 

It is actually very hard to reproduce real instrument dynamics in electronic music which is why you will very rarely ever hear it.

 

Thanks for the info! I'm expressing opinion relative to what I like- and not a technical assessment, for I can't do an honest technical assessment because I know zip about how that music is composed.

 

I do like to be fair- and it's not lost on me that the music I rave about (pun intended)was so very lost on my parent's generation.

 

brian

[J.4knee]

I guess it's true then.

 

The big bands will never come back.

 

I have a bass pupil who asked me a similar question a while ago...."John - do you think real rock music will ever return?"

 

It hasn't gone away in fact but as I wrote earlier, the tide comes in and goes out.

 

And social conditions change. When I was young all the older people hated rock and pop music and it wasn't accepted everywhere and ubiquitous like today.

 

But hasn't this old vs new argument been going on for centuries in some way or other?

 

Whether real musicians and real "Rock" will ever come back depends soley on following generations

[Izzy]

Since when does rock want to be the mainstream? Isn't the point to rebel against the mainstream?

 

I like EDM. Thought I could make that sort of thing...loop my synth and play over it with the electribe sequencer behind me..oh heck no! It takes talent. I figured since I didn't have to articulate with my fingers as much I could make cool tracks. Uhm...no. Now, I do think there is a big difference between playing something you already created for an audience live by summoning it through computers and samples.

 

I mean...you made it, it is your imagination...but, you're not playing that instrument. The connection with the audience may be there, but that element of skill in regards to physical articulation and stamina and the demand of an instrument and making it happen without buttons or knobs so much as strings or keys...I don't know, just isn't the same in my mind.

['Scales]

 

It hasn't gone away in fact but as I wrote earlier, the tide comes in and goes out.

 

And social conditions change. When I was young all the older people hated rock and pop music and it wasn't accepted everywhere and ubiquitous like today.

 

But hasn't this old vs new argument been going on for centuries in some way or other?

 

 

- yep, my bet is its safe to say 50 years ago the classical music crowd would have been saying the same about pickups, distortion and amplification!

(I also suspect there's as many rock bands out there as ever before, its just lost in the fact that there's more of everything than ever before so no one notices).

[pippy]

Hi Pippy. Sorry, yes I did misread your post slightly!

No apologies neccessary, my dear chap, I assure you.

In fact having re-read my post in question I must admit to having been even more long-winded than usual.

Hardly surprising if readers were unsure of my intent, what?

Mea culpa.

 

Carry On!

 

Pip.

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

 

 

Then I grew out of taking chemicals and realised I actually thought it was dreadful musically. Sure repetitive and hypnotic seemed great when off one's head. When all my faculties were with me quickly lost interest.

 

I experienced exacly the same thing, once my brain was clean I quickly lost interest. And that goes for almost all the people I know from that time. And I really don't know if there will be people in their 50's listening to that kind of music, half of the fun is to dance to it. It's nice to sit on a couch and listen to rock, but not that nice with EDM. Good for work-out though!

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

@ Tman5293 this is one of the few things I still can enjoy, check them out if you don't know them yet.

 

 

They work a lot with guitars too, even found a Foo Fighters cover I didn't know.

[4Hayden]

Similar in the fact they 'compose' a sound, but other than that I would say they are nothing alike.

 

I listened to those electronic tunes you posted and they are very basic and the musical techniques used are nothing much compared to say Jean Sibelius or the composers I listed earlier. They are not in the same league IMO. While I respect the electronic people 'compose' their pieces, I wouldn't say they are great by any stretch. That's not to say it's bad - it serves it's purpose much like a lot of pop music does. A lot of contemporary music is simple - everything from Bob Dylan to the Blackeyed Peas and a lot of the music I love isn't technically 'musically exceptional' in terms of composition i.e, Neil Young, The Band, Mogwai, but I wouldn't put any of these bands in the same league as classical composers as they are not alike IMO

 

This is musical composition at its finest;

 

That girl is good, enjoyed that

 

 

4H

[MissouriPicker]

One day, we'll all be antiques in one form or another, but new and younger musicians will be following behind us. People will always want music and there will be musicians to play it. I'd hate to think we'd one day reach a point where something I saw on Facebook a few weeks ago was actually true-----

 

Little girl---Daddy, who were Waylon Jennings and Johnny Cash?

 

Father---Well, sweetheart, long, long ago...in a galaxy far, far away there were people called songwriters, and believe it or not they actually wrote their own songs and played instruments when they sang them.

[Silvercrow]

One day, we'll all be antiques in one form or another, but new and younger musicians will be following behind us. People will always want music and there will be musicians to play it. I'd hate to think we'd one day reach a point where something I saw on Facebook a few weeks ago was actually true-----

 

Little girl---Daddy, who were Waylon Jennings and Johnny Cash?

 

Father---Well, sweetheart, long, long ago...in a galaxy far, far away there were people called songwriters, and believe it or not they actually wrote their own songs and played instruments when they sang them.

 

Little Girl: Reeeeally?

 

Father: Yep!...they played their instruments and sang AT THE SAME TIME!. In front of people...thousands of people, depending on the popularity of the band!

 

Little Girl: (eyes wide..) WHOA! They actually (gulp) got together at one place somewhere? In person? Daddy...c'mon!

 

Father: I'm serious, darlin'! And as if that wasn't enough; they actually THOUGHT about the lyrics before they wrote them! When we listened, we often discussed what the songwriter was trying to say...and what the lyrics meant to us!

 

Little Girl: So you'd text each other, or talk on the "skype"...?

 

Father: (sadly) No...we'd talk in person. Sometimes for hours...[Father has far away look in his eyes...)

 

Little Girl: Daddy...do you think you could play me some of those...whatyacallem...? CD's?

 

Father: I thought you'd NEVER ask!

 

POSTSCRIPT- the little girl grows up, never forgetting the day she heard 'real' music. Today, in 2025, she is responsible for the resurgence of live music in the SanFrancisco Bay area...guitar sales are back up...

 

SORRY MissouriPicker! I HAD to do an add-on! Helps me cope...thanks!

 

Brian

[surfpup]

Not to mention the Diabolus in musica. Aka the augmented 4th. Aka the flatted 5th.

 

AKA the tri-tone. Great stuff.

 

Sure repetitive and hypnotic seemed great when off one's head. When all my faculties were with me quickly lost interest.

 

 

 

Since when does rock want to be the mainstream?

 

Since the 70's unfortunately!