Smurfbird Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Recent comments from Sal and Jesse about the ease of a simple pickup sparked my thinking about pickups and acoustic guitars. I assume more complex pickups do capture more of an acoustic guitar's character if they mic from inside the body as well as grab sound from the bridge, but can it equal the tone heard from putting an excellent microphone towards the guitar? When considering a guitar you will be playing plugged in for a live situation, does it matter much what guitar you use? Do you really capture the finesse of the Hummingbird or will a J-15 or J-35 get you there (not counting people who prefer the J-15/35s in the first place)? What matters most when dealing with plugged-in sound, the quality of the guitar or the pick-up? Obviously, both would be the best guarantee...
BluesKing777 Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Aha, one of my current pet projects! All of the above, Smurf, but you still want to play a guitar you are comfortable playing...sound, neck, nut and all.... Mic is best but hard to get any volume without expert intervention. The easiest guitar live would be the Martins with the Aura installed at birth. Plug and play. Next is having an Aura pedal and various settings for various guitars......having a pedal like the Aura improves quacky pickups just having it turned on...something to do with input buffers or tech like that. Worst is undersaddle pickup straight to PA - should be a hanging offence. In between are all the options flogged by various music shops. BluesKing777.
MorrisrownSal Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 I think you will not get a ton of consensus here... I don't think you get the nuance of a great Bird as soon as you plug it in. i I know EA thinks you do. But at the same time, my LG2 AE plugged in doesn't sound a tenth as good as the J45 with the Baggs VTC. I think the guitar has 30% to do with it, vs 70% being attributed to the pickup. K&K sounds the most natural plugged in to me. The t. amulet sounds great too. Fancy generalization here... If you bought a $300 Yamaha, and put in a great pickup, and used an Aura, I bet your live sound would be better than a D28a
Dotneck Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 I think most guitars using an UST sound pretty much the same. You start to get some different sounds when you start using multiple source pickups. Mics provide the most individual sounds... I'm no expert but that's how I think about guitar electronics.
zombywoof Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Not a whole lot when you are talking about a magnetic soundhole pup. The Dearmond 210 was a great equalizer.
MissouriPicker Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 To me, the quality of the acoustic guitar and the mixer, speakers all play a roll. And definitely don't forget the cables. Best case scenario to me is the right mic for a great sounding guitar. Once you've plugged-in a guitar you lose something acoustically. Even the right mic isn't 100% the same, but I think it's a bit closer to the guitar's pure acoustic sound. Still, you're going through a mic and a cable. However, without the electronics, you won't be heard........ Good topic. I think literally all of us who plug-in or "mic" the guitar are always interested in getting closer to the real acoustic sound. ....On my weekly Wednesday afternoon gig, at times I've been tempted to play unplugged, but I find it alters my playing style. I find myself trying to pick the strings harder when I fingerpick (about 90% of what I do) in order to be heard and it doesn't help much anyway. Most of the time the place is very busy, so I just plug-in all the time. Aside from relatively small and quiet venues, I don't know how you avoid using electronics. I do think a good guitar (any model) and the right equipment can get you closer to the actual acoustic sound of the guitar. All that said, I've heard some great-sounding acoustics plugged-in and/or "mic'ed." And not all of them were Hummingbirds, 815s, D28s, etc. Kind of tough to be heard without the electronics. Besides, how do we record without them?
Fullmental Alpinist Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 On my weekly Wednesday afternoon gig, at times I've been tempted to play unplugged, but I find it alters my playing style. Nice to hear you're still doing your Wednesday gig. I enjoyed reading your reports a few years back when you used to update us on how you were doing, before it became "controversial." Keep it up. FMA
MissouriPicker Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 FMA, I think you're talking about Onewilyfool..........He used to keep us updated on his gig. Wish he was still doing it.
MorrisrownSal Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Now I'm curious... What's your weekly gig MP? And what was OWF's controversial gig?!?!
MissouriPicker Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Sal, I don't remember exactly what Wily's gig was, aside from it being a nice coffeehouse. I "think" some people objected to something. That's about all I remember. Maybe he'll see this.............Thanks for asking about my gig-----Been playing this place called Gusto's Coffeehouse/Bistro in Lee's Summit, Mo. for over 2 1/2 years now, every Wednesday from Noon-2. I plug-in, keep the sound just loud enough to be heard, play all my grandma and grandpa stuff for lots of college kids. Often have a friend join me for the last 45 minutes. Playing two hours alone is like a job...lol...and I don't want to work anymore. Anyways, I enjoy it and it's gotten me noticed by the Junior College that's about 300yds away and I've played the student union four times this summer. Had some nice things said about me in the college paper. Been a sweet little gig. You just never know what good things are waiting for a chance to happen. This place has live music 7-8 times a week. Regarding the model of guitar used part of the OP's post----It may sound kind of dramatic and I sure don't mean it that way, but I sincerely find that a great guitar is really nice to sit behind. It really is. If you can combine that guitar with the right amp/mic, you and the guitar can be heard. And it's not just the sound of the guitar. It's also the appearance. It's kind of like you're not alone up there. Plus, lots of college kids know what a good guitar is. And of course, college girls like guitar players....even the pickers that are older than dirt........So, along with the acoustic sound, quality of the instrument and whatever electronics are involved., I think a particular guitar can add to your confidence and simply wanting to play.
EuroAussie Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 As I've said it before, with the Aura Spectrum DI my SJ sounds like an SJ plugged in and my Hummingbird sounds like a Hummingbird. No question. Its a combination of a naturally distinct guitar tone and a solid pickup system.
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 Well, you guys know what I think about this, and I am pretty skewed in my opinion! yet I repeat it anyway. :) I think a Baggs Element will sound like a Baggs Element, almost completely regardless of the guitar it's in; a Fishman Matrix Infinity will sound like a Fishman Matrix Infinity, etc etc. When we're talking about something like an Aura, that is coloring that generic pickup tone to bring back what has been lost. But that does not mean there was ever any of the actual guitar in the UST signal to begin with. SBTs seem a little better than UST or magnetic pickup, but in my opinion, not much. I do think the best option is to color your tone with something like the Aura. Or, if you can, just use a mic. Or, try a Lyric, which I still don't think sounds as good as an outside mic, but it does sound like a mic. In addition, I think the Lyric really doesn't hear the back/sides of the guitar much, if at all, just the top, so even in that case, while at least we're hearing more than just the pickup, it's probably just the top. In addition, some people think an EQ'd UST sounds better than a Lyric, and it can sound darn good, but that goes back to the original post. If all you are hearing is an EQ'd UST, that's all you're hearing, not the guitar. My 23" scale CA Cargo plays great and has a Baggs Element in it. My J-15 came with a Baggs Element. To my ear, they'd sound about the same, like a Baggs Element. Anyway, you guys already knew I thought all this. :) I am just flapping my typing fingers and avoiding going to bed. And damaging the pickup market. Not trying to offend anyone or anything. I think we have some great options out there, and EuroAussie's plugged-in tone is one of the best I've ever heard, achieved through UST and the Aura. But, we are hearing, in my opinion, the UST and the Aura, not the guitar. And that's okay. I think it's a perfectly viable, and perhaps the best, solution, if you want something that actually sounds like an acoustic guitar and like the guitar you're playing would sound through a mic. But if you even so much as turn that Aura blend dial to 50%, you hear the UST, and it makes me squirm a little bit. (Same with the Baggs Anthem, which blends the Lyric's "Tru-Mic" with the Element UST. Sounds pretty good turned all the way to the mic, but even then, it uses the UST for some of the bass.) My skewed, biased opinion :) One wonders what USTs and SBTs ever did to me! MP raises and excellent point, though. Part of the fun is playing a guitar you love. So, if you can play a Yamaha with the Baggs Element or a Hummingbird with the Baggs Element, and even if they did sound exactly the same (which I basically believe they would), well, you are still sitting behind a Hummingbird...
slimt Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 I have a old slide in the sound hole d,armond 1000.. a sort of a acoustic sound.. but I think it varies on the amp thats used as well.. I watch a video of chris Isaacs.. wicked games the tune is called.. a J200 was used for that one.. from what I heard with the eyes closed.. sounded in along the lines of a gretsch archtop.
Fullmental Alpinist Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 FMA, I think you're talking about Onewilyfool..........He used to keep us updated on his gig. Wish he was still doing it. Oops. My mistake. But honestly, you Internet guitar players all look alike. FMA
Motherofpearl Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I totally disagree with you Jesse 100 percent. But no need for debate were stuck in our ways.
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I totally disagree with you Jesse 100 percent. But no need for debate were stuck in our ways. Well, I agree with you at least that debate is very often entirely fruitless. :) I am not stuck in my ways, though--I do not feel 100% definite about much in life! (This is one thing I do feel more definite about than most things though :)
Smurfbird Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 Mother of Pearl, Could you share your insights? I'm interested in hearing about your experiences with pickups and getting close to the acoustic sound of your unplugged guitar. Not looking for a debate, but input and opinions from everyone. Obviously, we won't come to a definitive answer, but we all still learn something from the discussion.
bayoubengal1954 Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 I always get a kick out of people saying that you can only get a true representation of your acoustic guitar by playing through a microphone. Of course a microphone colors the tone as well. They do make different mics after all, and they all do different things to the amplified tone of your guitar! The only thing I do now for a living is play music. I play through a variety of sound systems, sometimes rigs that I bring, but mostly through a system provided by the venue. I do not so much worry about capturing the "accurate" tone of my guitar (impossible unless you listen to me play in a living room unplugged) as much as projecting a pleasing, musical tone. Right now I play all my guitars through a Baggs M80 plugged into a Red Eye Preamp. This is the third generation of the Baggs Soundhole Pickup and it works for me with a small amount of EQ tweaking. I have most of all the adjustable poles screwed down low to get more of the body sound from the guitar. Can I tell a difference in the sound when I play my Southern Jumbo and my D-28? Well, yeah. Does it sound like "my guitar, only louder"? Not really. Does it sound "good" (to me)"? Yeah, it does.
MissouriPicker Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Bayoubengal, you're reading my mind...lol.....Every single thing we plug into or play into will change the acoustic sound of the guitar. No matter how good the mic or amp is, there is still a difference. BUT, so long as we are satisfied with the sound, we go with it. Last week I used my older-than-I-am Regal at a gig. I thought it sounded pretty sweet, and it did. After I was done I noticed that I had added a bit of chorus to the guitar....The dial must have gotten moved a bit without my knowing it. Had I noticed it, I'd have turned it all the way down. Still, it sounded good. Maybe it's why the little Regal sounded so full.......... Maybe someday technology will be able to duplicate the acoustic sound perfectly, without any of it being changed aside from volume. I plug-in a lot. Got to if I want to be heard. To my ears, there's no doubt that what is coming through the speakers is the sound of an acoustic guitar. Not exactly the way the guitar sounds unplugged, but still close enough for me and I can be heard.
Smurfbird Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 It's interesting to me because so many folks buying guitars talk about the various tone woods, the effect of various saddles, pins and picks. string changes and body types. All these aspects so important to the tone they crave and then there's all these other variables when playing live that can't be anticipated until you play through the numerous systems out there. I'm leaning towards MP's concept here of getting a guitar that you feel good playing behind and then seeing where the rest of it takes you. Though deciding on a pickup-system that works to my satisfaction seems like something you mostly take on theory and faith, since how many of us can afford to put in and pull out several pick-up systems in search of the one for them?
bayoubengal1954 Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Bayoubengal, you're reading my mind...lol.....Every single thing we plug into or play into will change the acoustic sound of the guitar. No matter how good the mic or amp is, there is still a difference. BUT, so long as we are satisfied with the sound, we go with it. Last week I used my older-than-I-am Regal at a gig. I thought it sounded pretty sweet, and it did. After I was done I noticed that I had added a bit of chorus to the guitar....The dial must have gotten moved a bit without my knowing it. Had I noticed it, I'd have turned it all the way down. Still, it sounded good. Maybe it's why the little Regal sounded so full.......... Maybe someday technology will be able to duplicate the acoustic sound perfectly, without any of it being changed aside from volume. I plug-in a lot. Got to if I want to be heard. To my ears, there's no doubt that what is coming through the speakers is the sound of an acoustic guitar. Not exactly the way the guitar sounds unplugged, but still close enough for me and I can be heard.
capmaster Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Every single guitar body of any design and make will affect tone. This is also valid for solidbodies using same magnetic and piezo pickups which I use a lot.
BluesKing777 Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 So the race is on.. Will we be going to and living on Mars before someone invents some gadgetry that actually sounds, in a live gig, like an acoustic guitar played on the couch..... Preferably wireless! (So I can zap a movie from my iPad wirelessly to my TV, but have leads everywhere to play acoustic guitar through an amp or PA.?) It is overdue, this device! Though I would be happy to have a wireless Fishman Aura device......for now..... BluesKing777.
livemusic Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 I have seen this subject debated ad infinitum on forums over many years. I do agree that a piezo quack sounds like crap. Since I was so interested in striving for best live sound, I have tried this and that. It's SO complicated. One of the best live sounds these days is Jackson Browne. I researched all he does and found some articles about it. He is very picky about this. I haven't looked into it for a few years but when I quit looking, he had settled on the Trance Amulet system. In fact, he insisted that Gibson install it in his sig Gibson guitar. I also found that he mic'd with a certain mic in addition to his onboard electronics. I don't recall what it is but he was enamored with that particular mic. I bought one and still have it, just can't recall the name. It's an old mic.
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 I'm lucky that I'm satisfied with any old mic! If I were as critical of mics as I am of UST/SBT/magnetic, I'd really be a wreck. I'd probably just have to get over it. No one in the audience cares one whit anyway (as we've discussed before--99.9% of the audience will neither notice nor care, as long as it is just a sound palatable to the human ear, as BayouBengal was saying). I just feel like if I have a Hummingbird (or whatever) and it sounds like rubberbands plugged in, I might as well just have one of those inexpensive Martins with the built-in Aura instead.
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