capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 If anyone is suggesting I said set intonation by ear or looks you have to be out of your mind. The stair step pattern is there on any guitar when the intonation is set right. There is variance in the height of the steps but the pattern is always the same. Believe or think what you like. It is a factual thing. ... Not at all. In the following are pics of bridge saddles showing a reprentative cross section of all of my Gibsons and Fenders which are strung using same brand, make and gauge. The intonation adjustments may not fit into your imaginations, but they are correct, string set after string set. Guitars are different, aren't they? Here we go: Hope this helps you with upgrading your theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Oh Capmaster, my friend! What a mess!!! What a mess! My OCD hurts. Cheers... Bence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Oh Capmaster, my friend! What a mess!!! What a mess! My OCD hurts. Cheers... Bence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblooded Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 After reading this thread, this is all that's stuck in my brain now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 After reading this thread, this is all that's stuck in my brain now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ok I will join in with the slantyness..... And I think it makes little difference as long as your guitar intonates properly who cares? Youd have to be using some really out there string gauges or the bridge wasn't placed properly for the need to change the slants around... or do something extreme like set the action really high for slide playing or something. Oddly ive never really thought about it much... These pics are of my gibbies and all came that way from the factory and apart from tiny adjustments for intonation ive never changed a thing and they all intonate perfectly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ok I will join in with the slantyness..... And I think it makes little difference as long as your guitar intonates properly who cares? Youd have to be using some really out there string gauges or the bridge wasn't placed properly for the need to change the slants around... or do something extreme like set the action really high for slide playing or something. Oddly ive never really thought about it much... These pics are of my gibbies and all came that way from the factory and apart from tiny adjustments for intonation ive never changed a thing and they all intonate perfectly... There wasn't much ado with mine, too. Did she come with the Nashville bridge the other way round? You better not show this one to the OP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 There wasn't much ado with mine, too. Did she come with the Nashville bridge the other way round? You better not show this one to the OP! Yeah, that's my 2011 60s Tribute Studio Goldtop.... And you know what I was just wondering the same thing.... Did I turn it around by accident? (that's how little attention I pay to my personal guitars ) .. But you know what I don't think so... This was one of my later editions to my collection and I knew by then that the bridge and tailpiece will just fall off if you arnt careful and I tend to leave an old string on while I change the others so that doesn't happen... So... its unlikely I would have changed it.. ? (but is possible I guess :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs orange widow Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 HMMMM,, well now do I go an play with the saddles and try this theory out??? Like I said both my customs saddles run straight down the bridge...... Heres a little story about intonation.... My old man has a 82 silverburst custom and it comes outta the case maybe once a year... So for xmas one year about 10 years ago I took it to the local guitar shop for a nice poish job, set the intonation, new strings, file the a fret or two cause he didn't ever do that for his guitar,,, we got the guitar back and aside from the new strings it played terrible!!!! Strings were buzzing on frets, intonation was out by a mile.... it went back in the case till 2012 when I got my les paul custom, he pulled it outta the case, quick to notice his saddles were all over the bridge, and mine were straight in a line, so he eyeballed it an away he went!!!!! in minutes his saddles were in the same position as mine hahaha.... I took it to a friend to tune it up properly, fix the fret buzz an all that... he said the intonation was absolutely perfect hahaha..... an kindly offered my old man $3000 cash for his guitar..... My old man says hes crazy an its only worth $500 cause its an old 1982 and would never sell it to someone crazy enough to pay that amount for a 82 les paul custom.... it still sits in the case today under his bed with perfect intonation hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 .... Did I turn it around by accident? (that's how little attention I pay to my personal guitars ) ... its unlikely I would have changed it.. ? (but is possible I guess :)) This could motivate someone to post a long-winded sermon I fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 HMMMM,, well now do I go an play with the saddles and try this theory out??? Like I said both my customs saddles run straight down the bridge...... Heres a little story about intonation.... My old man has a 82 silverburst custom and it comes outta the case maybe once a year... So for xmas one year about 10 years ago I took it to the local guitar shop for a nice poish job, set the intonation, new strings, file the a fret or two cause he didn't ever do that for his guitar,,, we got the guitar back and aside from the new strings it played terrible!!!! Strings were buzzing on frets, intonation was out by a mile.... it went back in the case till 2012 when I got my les paul custom, he pulled it outta the case, quick to notice his saddles were all over the bridge, and mine were straight in a line, so he eyeballed it an away he went!!!!! in minutes his saddles were in the same position as mine hahaha.... I took it to a friend to tune it up properly, fix the fret buzz an all that... he said the intonation was absolutely perfect hahaha..... an kindly offered my old man $3000 cash for his guitar..... My old man says hes crazy an its only worth $500 cause its an old 1982 and would never sell it to someone crazy enough to pay that amount for a 82 les paul custom.... it still sits in the case today under his bed with perfect intonation hahaha Great story - I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 There wasn't much ado with mine, too. Did she come with the Nashville bridge the other way round? You better not show this one to the OP! Also I do think there is one big difference about having the slant pointing towards the pickups.. Its that for scale length, well when its the proper way round (slant pointing to the back of the body) the point at which the scale length starts is easy to determine as theres a straight edge that the sting comes off.. BUT if you have a small slope, the point at which the string actually comes off of the slope (because of the slots) isn't going to be quite exact.. if you see what I mean.. It will depend how deep the string slots are cut and how they are cut.. But we are talking minute detail here... it should all still work (as indeed it does on my goldtop :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Also I do think there is one big difference about having the slant pointing towards the pickups.. Its that for scale length, well when its the proper way round (slant pointing to the back of the body) the point at which the scale length starts is easy to determine as theres a straight edge that the sting comes off.. BUT if you have a small slope, the point at which the string actually comes off of the slope (because of the slots) isn't going to be quite exact.. if you see what I mean.. It will depend how deep the string slots are cut and how they are cut.. But we are talking minute detail here... it should all still work (as indeed it does on my goldtop :)) Yep. Never heard anyone complaining about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 This could motivate someone to post a long-winded sermon I fear. Just being honest.... Its possible but I don't think I did it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Just being honest.... Its possible but I don't think I did it... Let's hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Yeah, that's my 2011 60s Tribute Studio Goldtop.... And you know what I was just wondering the same thing.... Did I turn it around by accident? (that's how little attention I pay to my personal guitars ) .. But you know what I don't think so... This was one of my later editions to my collection and I knew by then that the bridge and tailpiece will just fall off if you arnt careful and I tend to leave an old string on while I change the others so that doesn't happen... So... its unlikely I would have changed it.. ? (but is possible I guess :)) Interesting Rabs. I just pulled up a search with Gibson 2011 studio gold top 60s tribute, and the images as well as a couple YouTube vids show the Nashville facing the stop. The current pics of the Studio 60s Tribute on the Gibson website show the Nashville facing the stop. Now looking at the pic of you 60 Trib, are your saddle slots the proper width? The high E slot looks too big and I can't see the slots of the low wound strings. I also note the saddle slants are facing the bridge pup while the rest of your pics show the slants facing the stop. Is that perhaps due to an oops flip you didn't know you made? . . B) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 The high E slot looks too big and I can't see the slots of the low wound strings. Is that perhaps due to an oops flip you didn't know you made? . . B) . Hmmm.. well it seems that way doesn't it :) I really cant remember ever doing it... (I certainly had no reason for it if I did it wasn't for any purpose). But hey.. It still plays well and intonates so... its neither here nor there really :) Maybe I will flip it back next time and see if I notice any difference :) (im starting to wish I handt posted it now :unsure: :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdecantoo Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Silly question but wouldn't the nut's cut be the biggest determining factor as to saddle placement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Still excellent information coming in this thread and the bridge pics are very interesting to look at too ..... Silly question but wouldn't the nut's cut be the biggest determining factor as to saddle placement? Aha....not silly; logical and sensible IMO. Down the other end for a moment. The answer is a qualified 'yes'; please have a quick look at this link to the Buzz Feiten 'tuning system' which is a compensated nut fitted to your guitar. http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm I don't have one and have never tried a guitar with one fitted but presumably it 'tempers' the scale length of each string a bit more, however I read somewhere you can no longer do unison bends. Yes - ideally we could have compensated (-ing) nuts too, but.....guitar generally works and sounds fine without it as a good bridge allows for enough compensation. It has been tried before - the most famous one, the Micro-Frets compensating nut (see below) was not pretty and was assembled from around 2 dozen carefully-machined metal parts; not exactly economic when one single piece of plastic will do the job ok...... Looks like fun to adjust... ;) Regards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Silly question but wouldn't the nut's cut be the biggest determining factor as to saddle placement? Hello! Not a silly question at all. The nut itself doesn't allows much room for adjustments, though. With the stock (or similar) piece, there is only one way to slot it right. However, there are lot's of other factors to be considered during setting the intonation. Think of the whole string suspension and neck as one system. Every adjustment You make to a component will effect the rest too. Intonation is affected by string gauge, tension in the first place. But there are other things to be aware of when adjusting the saddles: neck relief, string height (action), and fret height too! Also, playing habits: how hard You play the instrument. Just as when You are tuning the strings to pitch, You consider Your playing habits. If You are heavy-handed, tune to attack (slightly flat). Those with soft touch should rather tune to decay (slightly sharp). The same is true for setting the intonation: depending on Your touch and the fret height You should consider either to tune to attack, or to decay. That's why when You are setting the intonation, do not refer to natural harmonics! Fret the string an octave higher or so, fretting and picking the strings with Your usual playing force. I, - personally - use the 17th fret as a reference. It is because, I play in that register most often. Cheers... Bence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 ... please have a quick look at this link to the Buzz Feiten 'tuning system' which is a compensated nut fitted to your guitar. http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm I don't have one and have never tried a guitar with one fitted but presumably it 'tempers' the scale length of each string a bit more, however I read somewhere you can no longer do unison bends. Yes - ideally we could have compensated (-ing) nuts too, but.....guitar generally works and sounds fine without it as a good bridge allows for enough compensation. ... Definitely. Anyway, a real zero fret is the best solution for the top end. "Real" means that it is of no larger height but dressed like the other frets. Buzz Feiten completely misunderstood the whole situation. His concept is useless, and even the letters patent is full of mistakes. The solution is stretched tuning. I do this since over thirty years. You may refer to these links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity#Inharmonicity_leads_to_stretched_tuning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I think the terrorists have won on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I think the terrorists have won on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Over here, after 9/11/01, when terrorists blew up the World Trade Center, lots of people were arguing about how "the terrorists are winning" every time they disagreed with some political decision made by somebody. So people joke that the "terrorists are winning" when people argue about stuff that doesn't make any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDFART Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 Pardon me with the corrected fret thing, but doesn't that all go right out the window when you bend a string? I find that variance of how hard you press a string can help get things more in tune at times if you're flat of course, pressing harder sharpens the note. It is all a fundamental flaw in the mathematics of string length and thickness to note division. A guitar is an imperfect instrument at best, but they do tend to sound rather amazing in the right hands. As for "terrorists", they can take their religious nutdom with them to their imagined paradise. As long as people believe fantasy as reality there will never be an end to the madness. Every religion has done the same monstrous things in history, every one of them. Delusion is crazy, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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