cliffenstein Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Most of us at one time or another have found ourselves getting lost in discussions of why this guitar brand is better than that guitar brand and the materials used relative to tone and blah, blah, blah. 1. I have a 1990 Sebring all-laminate w/bolt on neck LPJ Special with Gibson Burstbucker 2 in the bridge position 2. I have a 2007 Epiphone Les Paul Custom with a Gibson 498T in the bridge position 3. My co-guitarist has a 1992 Gibson Les Paul Custom with stock 490R/498T pickups 4. My singer owns a 2005 Gibson Les Paul Studio with stock 490R/498T pickups My guitars (the Sebring and the Epiphone) were both bought used, were re-wired so that the bridge pickup goes directly to one volume knob and everything else disconnected with all non-used wiring completely removed. They also were wonderfully set up by a very competent luthier so that they have super low action with no fret buzz. My co-guitarist's Gibson LPC has the same action as mine...he bought his guitar used approximately 10 years ago and it was like that when he got it. My singer's Gibson LPS has higher action than I am comfortable with, but he's a bass player and it's just fine for him. All four guitars use D'Addario XL Nickel Wound Blues/Jazz Rock 11-49 strings. The other day I tested all four guitars through the same Marshall JCM800 half stack. The Epiphone and both Gibsons literally sounded like the same guitar. There was not an ounce of difference in the sound coming out of the amp regardless of which guitar was played. The Sebring was a bit different with the Burstbucker 2 but was every bit as big and pro sounding. Even the fact that the guitar is as thin as an SG and has a bolt on neck made not one bit of difference with regard to the bigness or clarity of the overall sound. Every band member agreed that the difference was attributable only to the different pickup (and my singer preferred it over all 3 of the others). The tone we go for is a cross between Angus Young and Johnny Ramone...it's not overly gained out. We go for a good, solid rock and roll tone that displays articulation of strumming patterns and notes within chords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDFART Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 You bring up an interesting point and I am surprised they have not hammered you as they do me every time I say anything frightfully factual. So let me see if they care to insult me some more. In my opinion you are not hearing any real difference for several reasons: 1.) Same hands and technique. They say a lot of one's tone comes from their hands and that is somewhat true as technique and feel makes you unique. 2.) Same amp, as guitar/amp/rig chemistry is very variant. Using the same pickup and player through the same amp would indeed tend to sound the same can't see any real reason why it would not. 3.) Being honest about it I think the sound and tone of the guitar is 90% or more pickups/components, hardware, and setup. 4.) Having a Les Paul with a higher wood grade or prettier finish flame with the same guts, is not going to change the sound. That would be as dumb as claiming a red guitar sounds different than a black one. The only reason my EPI custom plus sounds different is because my daddy Les Paul is heavier and has different pickups. And I am not sure a pound or two weight is something you are going to "hear" as sustain of the string vibration is not what one hears. Set up or hardware might make a difference in the sound of two like guitars but that would probably be the pickup reaction to the strings, distance and so forth. The allusion or illusion of various wood types is largely a misnomer of applying the acoustic qualities of woods to electrics where in physics and science wood types cannot matter as the pickup does not reproduce anything from these elements. All that applies are the various wood densities and weight effecting sustain and vibration qualities of the strings. Is the wood density and relative grain structure that gives acoustic instruments different tonalities. A solid body guitar is just a different animal. I do not belive there is a magic to a mahogany body with a maple top it is more like the combination of the wood density types makes for a nice combination. Maple is very heavy and hard and Les Paul actually wanted the Les Paul to be entirely maple but it was so much heavier it seemed too much. On paper the guitar with the heavier foundation and stable setup incurring less vibration dissipation will sustain the longest. But it is the pickups that are no doubt the forefront of what constitutes "tone". No one is going to convince me that if my Les Paul cost $15K would sound any different using the same pickups, looks and finish or nostalgic attraction does not equate to "tone". Many may think otherwise but there is no real proof of such. It is seldom considered by the vintage school of high priced and sought after guitars that when they played these instruments on the legendary songs and tones these instruments were NEW. Simple fact time changes things, the magnets degrade, wood changes and gradually degrades if not cared for over time. So playing something 50yrs old is no where like it was when it was new. Personally I only wish I had money to burn paying excessive amounts of money for cool guitars but I know what I have sounds so damn good, tone wise it makes no real difference. That should get them going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Try these guitars through a high-quality full-range acoustic amp. Play, listen, and be amazed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad1 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 According to your "Joined" date you have only been at this forum for less than a month. And you only have 20 posts!!! How can you make any definitive statements about this forum at all???? I have never heard of you, and do not recall any of your posts. But imo most of what you wrote is complete rubbish. I don't have the time or energy to go through and point out how many of your "facts" are just wrong. Anyone who starts out their post insulting the members of a forum, deserves everything he/she gets. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 ... On paper the guitar with the heavier foundation and stable setup incurring less vibration dissipation will sustain the longest. But it is the pickups that are no doubt the forefront of what constitutes "tone". ... As far as it's about magnetic pickups, they are the back seat of tone. Some are very far away, others not so far. Only piezo bridges are at the forefront of tone. Dissipation is different for different notes. Every guitar has "live" and "dull" or even "dead" ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Try these guitars through a high-quality full-range acoustic amp. Play, listen, and be amazed. Possible clean tone variations were not explored (we use single channel amps and never play clean). The purpose of my test was to find out if construction methods and wood grades truly matter with solid body guitars. It appears from my tests that construction methods do not matter...at least not with our guitars and the way we use them. I knew my Sebring and my Epiphone sound great after the work I had done to them, but I was still expecting to HEAR a marked difference between them and the Gibsons. It was surprising to me and my bandmates to hear no discernible difference whatsoever (other than what we felt was attributable solely to the tonal differences between the 498T and the Burstbucker 2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Lots of my guitars have pickups of same build. These are mainly Gibson '57 Classics, '57/'57+ combos, BurstBucker 1 & 2 combos, 490R/498T combos, Fender SCN (Samarium Cobalt Noiseless) sets, and Fender N3 Noiseless sets. The most significant tonal differences seem to result from timber species, body and neck designs. Interestingly these differences translate also using high gains, in particular when playing chords. When about BBs, a flame top Les Paul with rosewood fretboard has much more edge than a quilt top LP with coração de negro board. Quilt tops are flatsawn, by the way. An ash Tele body with one-piece maple neck also delivers more edge than an alder-bodied with rosewood board. My antique natural 2011 L6S has a finished maple board, my silverburst 2011 L6S one of baked maple and a neck volute, everything else is the same. The first one has a clearer, more consistent tone, longer sustain, and a much less apparent dull note. When about high gain, my Fender ash Tele with N3s and my Gibson LP Traditional 2013 with '57/'57 Plus are in fact tonewise closer to each other than to any other Tele or LP! I could continue here with the two of my Strats with SCNs each but different neck and body timber combinations, let alone all the other Gibson and Epiphone guitars with '57 Classics respectively '57/'57 Pluses... There is so much to discover, and I'm well amazed again and again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgruff Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 First, can we get rid of hands? Tone is not in the hands. Tone is in the gear and any specific set up can only produce a finite set of sounds. Whether or not you know how to pull all of these sounds out of an instrument is an issue but we're talking about guitars not guitarists ie the properties of the instrument not the properties of the musician. Pickups filter the natural acoustic sound of an electric guitar pretty savagely. Most will have a peak in their frequency response around 5k or so, and then a sharp fall off. Straight away, a lot of the natural tone is discarded. Amps will also put their own stamp on the signal. Coupling caps between gain stages create a high pass filter, for example. Different circuits will have their unique dynamics and frequency responses. Note that overdrive can stomp all over any subtle differences between different guitars (and pickups..) so if you're trying to compare the sound of different guitars you really need to do it with cleans. The speaker is also incredibly important. Just like a guitar pickup, it filters the signal pretty drastically. Different speakers will have their own unique frequency response. Again, like a guitar pickup, there is a sharp cut-off somewhere in the upper mids. So if the natural, acoustic tone was a character in a movie, it would get kidnapped, knocked unconscious, have one of its kidneys stolen, and finally get brain-washed into believing it's a completely different person - but that's exactly what is supposed to happen. An electric guitar sound is manufactured in contrast to an acoustic guitar where the natural tone IS the final product which mostly you just want to capture as accurately as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I agree with points 2/ 3/ & 4 made by OLDFART post#2 and with CapMaster post #2 This point is often overlooked also. Note that overdrive can stomp all over any subtle differences between different guitars (and pickups..) so if you're trying to compare the sound of different guitars you really need to do it with cleans. Gain is like sugar. Use too much and its all you can taste/hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDFART Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 According to your "Joined" date you have only been at this forum for less than a month. And you only have 20 posts!!! How can you make any definitive statements about this forum at all???? I have never heard of you, and do not recall any of your posts. But imo most of what you wrote is complete rubbish. I don't have the time or energy to go through and point out how many of your "facts" are just wrong. Anyone who starts out their post insulting the members of a forum, deserves everything he/she gets. <_< So what does what you say matter? Dude, that is all you chaps have done to me is insult everything said as if I am wrong when most of the time I doubt things were actually read or comprehended. After 4 decades of playing and a tech background I have never seen so many clueless guitar players, ever. You seem to think time here matters, why? This is just another idiot blog spot. You try and talk about something or get a discussion going and all you get is insulted and told you're wrong but those who obviously do not know. I was commenting on the chaps observations of what he heard using the same pickup on various guitars through the same amp using the same player, of course they all sound similar. One has to admire how one says nothing but sites things as wrong. What is wrong, be specific rather than insulting. What do you disagree with? Acoustic qualities of various woods really have no bearing on electric guitars, it is physics. Wood density, weight, hardware set up and pickup components make up the tone. Pickups do not hear wood, it is simple electronic magnetic field theory. All this yada about woods being brighter and so on is just lore. Acoustically yes, solid body electrics no. Just look at a Les Paul neck, half the board is made up of pearl or abalone inserts not wood. I have guitars will all sorts of wood types, its the pickups man. And yes what I said and the points made are true. Ask someone who has a clue. What gets me is some here think I cannot know or I must be wrong because I am new here. I cannot count the boards I have posted and gotten bored with the inability for some many to discern reality. I have a technical engineering background and been a guitarist for 41 yrs how is it you feel I cannot know anything and someone here does? Ponder the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDFART Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Possible clean tone variations were not explored (we use single channel amps and never play clean). The purpose of my test was to find out if construction methods and wood grades truly matter with solid body guitars. It appears from my tests that construction methods do not matter...at least not with our guitars and the way we use them. I knew my Sebring and my Epiphone sound great after the work I had done to them, but I was still expecting to HEAR a marked difference between them and the Gibsons. It was surprising to me and my bandmates to hear no discernible difference whatsoever (other than what we felt was attributable solely to the tonal differences between the 498T and the Burstbucker 2). You're right man. Same pickup is not going to sound much different. A lot of myth and lore in woods and guitars. I have an assortment of various woods and guitars. They sound different from the radically different pickups each has. If you took various Les Paul's with the same pickup, hardware, setup, and so on using different woods the same pickups would be damn near identical. I think you already discovered that. If the chap is playing hollow body guitars and such he is missing the entire point. A pickup gets signal from the strings vibrating in the magnetic field, it does not hear wood. Wood differs in density and weight with variant grain structure. Pickups do not really give a damn. Since it is basically scientifically impossible to accurately design an experiment to measure the frequency response of the same exact guitar using various woods without the infinite problem of variants it cannot be measured with any accuracy. The various qualities labeled to different woods having tonal qualities is true in an acoustic sense but only due to the density, weight and structure of the wood. Sustain of vibration is a variant of different guitars and woods but the pickup only gets the string breaking the mag field. Same pickup is not much different allowing for the slight variance in the windings and magnet quality in each one, as no two things are ever identical, one of the laws of physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Dude, that is all you chaps have done to me is insult everything said as if I am wrong when most of the time I doubt things were actually read or comprehended. You came into a thread and told people like me that our guitars were not intonated correctly, based on what you call the visual steps of the bridge. People continued to try, politely at first, to tell you that you are kinda barking up the wrong tree, but you resisted. I've been everywhere and done everything you can do with a guitar with all kindsa great people, and I've never lost a gig, botched a record, or been turned away because my guitars weren't intonated right. Some of us have been doing this for a very long time, and have been paid some pretty good money to do it. None of us, ever, needed you to tell us how to intonate a guitar, and then tell us how stupid we are because you are a super smart engineer. So learn how to interact with others that may just know a few more things than you do, or frig off. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 You bring up an interesting point and I am surprised they have not hammered you as they do me every time I say anything frightfully factual. So let me see if they care to insult me some more. That should get them going. According to your "Joined" date you have only been at this forum for less than a month. And you only have 20 posts!!! How can you make any definitive statements about this forum at all???? I have never heard of you, and do not recall any of your posts. But imo most of what you wrote is complete rubbish. I don't have the time or energy to go through and point out how many of your "facts" are just wrong. Anyone who starts out their post insulting the members of a forum, deserves everything he/she gets. <_< So what does what you say matter? Dude, that is all you chaps have done to me is insult everything said as if I am wrong when most of the time I doubt things were actually read or comprehended. One has to admire how one says nothing but sites things as wrong. What is wrong, be specific rather than insulting. You came into a thread and told people like me that our guitars were not intonated correctly, based on what you call the visual steps of the bridge. People continued to try, politely at first, to tell you that you are kinda barking up the wrong tree, but you resisted. I've been everywhere and done everything you can do with a guitar with all kindsa great people, and I've never lost a gig, botched a record, or been turned away because my guitars weren't intonated right. Some of us have been doing this for a very long time, and have been paid some pretty good money to do it. None of us, ever, needed you to tell us how to intonate a guitar, and then tell us how stupid we are because you are a super smart engineer. So learn how to interact with others that may just know a few more things than you do, or frig off. rct This might explain things better. In a thread about "bridges", it was a big paragraph full of mis-info, just basically wrong. Every time the guy was POLITELY corrected, he got offensive and hurled insults...similar to what you see here. That's basically where his 20 or so post come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dReit1 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 After reading everything that's been said on this thread, it's probably better if I don't say anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve112 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Agree with much, disagree with some, don't want to get involved in mutual mud-slinging. Polite discussion is appropriate, if that is not respected then what's the point of us sharing our guitar musings? Personally, I love learning about the many attributes of my favorite instrument, the guitar. I'm 67, been playing since I was 11 and am still learning the subtleties of this amazing musical tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddyHollywood Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Besides pickups, I found out by experimenting with different bridges on the same guitar that whatever bridge you are using has a lot of influence on the tone of your guitar. I'm also in the "everything matters" camp when it comes to an electric guitar and its tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 An often underrated point is string action. Fat tone calls for large string height. Stevie Ray Vaughan knew, Joe Bonamassa and Yngwie Malmsteen know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomse Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Well one thing for sure is he or she sure gets you people going .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 Well one thing for sure is he or she sure gets you people going .. He! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDFART Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 You came into a thread and told people like me that our guitars were not intonated correctly, based on what you call the visual steps of the bridge. People continued to try, politely at first, to tell you that you are kinda barking up the wrong tree, but you resisted. I've been everywhere and done everything you can do with a guitar with all kindsa great people, and I've never lost a gig, botched a record, or been turned away because my guitars weren't intonated right. Some of us have been doing this for a very long time, and have been paid some pretty good money to do it. None of us, ever, needed you to tell us how to intonate a guitar, and then tell us how stupid we are because you are a super smart engineer. So learn how to interact with others that may just know a few more things than you do, or frig off. rct NO, sorry chuckles that is just your sense of NOT comprehending anything. I stated that all guitars due to the size and mathematics of string length and division will display play a similar stair step pattern across the bridge saddles. The size of the steps will vary but at no example will some of the saddles be closer to the string nut than the usual formula the Greeks discovered centuries upon centuries ago. A particular reason if you examine the Les Paul bridge that is is off set more towards the treble side of the strings closer to the neck, Duh. Thinner strings have to be more sharp to the neck than thicker. The size of the steps will varying from guitar to guitar but all guitars when properly on pitch intonation will have the same approximate stepping. 1st string closest, then the 2nd after it, and the third further back, the 4th will be somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd with the 5th more back and the 6th the furthest away. The three step pattern repeats with the general size increase of strings. At no time will proper intonation be outside these simple rules. For example nothing will be closer to the neck sharp than your thinnest string and nothing further back away flat than your 6th or thickest string. Be glad to place your guitar on a strobe to show you that what I have said is dead right. Try and accept some of us playing for many years have knowledge just because you have not come to it does not mean it is not so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDFART Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Be nice to discuss this "tone is in the hands thing". As if your amp/rig has a crappy tone that is not happening, your hands will make it right. One gets a style and technique of playing, hopefully, that is individual to you but "tone" for the sake of "sound" is gear related. A crap/amp rig is what it is. I can play the crap out of my kids cheap beginner guitar but at no time does it sound like my Les Paul's. That "tone" is the guitar itself. As for guitars and tone woods, its a puzzle really. Acoustic instruments, sure, the density, weight and resonance of woods makes a difference but electrics, typical pickups only register the mag field being created by the string vibrating in the coil field. Does the pickup care if it is mahogany or walnut, only from the aspect of wood density which relates to sustain and vibration qualities. For the life of me I cannot see how my Les Paul is so much the less of one costing thousands more when its tone and playability is as good as anything ever heard. Vintage is a hoot to me as somehow thinking a pickup over 50 years old is the same as it was a half century ago or the woods have not changed, much less the electrical components. When those guitars were creating legendary tones they were "new", now they are +50 yrs old, just not the same. Worth tens of thousands?? Maybe if you have money to burn. Time ravages everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleeko Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 NO, sorry chuckles that is just your sense of NOT comprehending anything. I stated that all guitars due to the size and mathematics of string length and division will display play a similar stair step pattern across the bridge saddles. The size of the steps will vary but at no example will some of the saddles be closer to the string nut than the usual formula the Greeks discovered centuries upon centuries ago. A particular reason if you examine the Les Paul bridge that is is off set more towards the treble side of the strings closer to the neck, Duh. Thinner strings have to be more sharp to the neck than thicker. The size of the steps will varying from guitar to guitar but all guitars when properly on pitch intonation will have the same approximate stepping. 1st string closest, then the 2nd after it, and the third further back, the 4th will be somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd with the 5th more back and the 6th the furthest away. The three step pattern repeats with the general size increase of strings. At no time will proper intonation be outside these simple rules. For example nothing will be closer to the neck sharp than your thinnest string and nothing further back away flat than your 6th or thickest string. Be glad to place your guitar on a strobe to show you that what I have said is dead right. Try and accept some of us playing for many years have knowledge just because you have not come to it does not mean it is not so. This points out something that has always puzzled me and that is; why the third string saddle is further back than the fourth. The third string is thinner than the fourth no? So why the difference for the third string? Thanks - Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 NO, sorry chuckles that is just your sense of NOT comprehending anything. I stated that all guitars due to the size and mathematics of string length and division will display play a similar stair step pattern across the bridge saddles. The size of the steps will vary but at no example will some of the saddles be closer to the string nut than the usual formula the Greeks discovered centuries upon centuries ago. A particular reason if you examine the Les Paul bridge that is is off set more towards the treble side of the strings closer to the neck, Duh. Thinner strings have to be more sharp to the neck than thicker. The size of the steps will varying from guitar to guitar but all guitars when properly on pitch intonation will have the same approximate stepping. 1st string closest, then the 2nd after it, and the third further back, the 4th will be somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd with the 5th more back and the 6th the furthest away. The three step pattern repeats with the general size increase of strings. At no time will proper intonation be outside these simple rules. For example nothing will be closer to the neck sharp than your thinnest string and nothing further back away flat than your 6th or thickest string. Be glad to place your guitar on a strobe to show you that what I have said is dead right. Try and accept some of us playing for many years have knowledge just because you have not come to it does not mean it is not so. Dude. All guitars intonate relative to the placement of their bridge in relation to the nut. The saddles can look all kindsa ways. What is it the you don't get about that? I have plenty of strobes and don't need yours. I have forgotten more about guitars than you apparently are capable of understanding. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorboy Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 After adjusting the saddles for correct intonation, a couple of my electric guitars have the D string furthest from the nut than the other strings Am I bothered? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorboy Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Different electric guitar tonewoods affect the envelope of the notes played. This variation influences the attack, sustain, decay and release of the note and consequently has a bearing on the string vibration nodes that are amplified by the pickup. This envelope shaping is felt by the player and translates into a tactile response that equates to the phenomenon of 'tone is in the fingers'. In conclusion, I disagree that it's all about the pickups although they do play their part in shaping the e!ectric guitar tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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