Lars68 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I have written five songs so far. For all of them I have used a book that spells out twelve chords that go together in a major key and ten chords that go together in a minor key (not all of those chords are said to be in theory correct for the given key, but they can used as substitute chords, which is good enough for me...). For those five songs, I guess this mode of operation has worked out well enough. However, I am now writting a new song, and instead of "cheating" by using a set of rules as to which chords I can use or not use, I set out to try and use my own ears. I now have a sequence in 6/8 time (I guess that is what it's called) that I think suits what I'm hearing in my head with the melody I want. The sequence is Dm, A7, Dm, A7, F, C, Dm. I'm now trying to figure out how this fits with chord/key theory. Is this in the key of Dm? Input appreciated. Also, when writing songs, how bothered should I be about how "theoretically" correct a song I'm writing is? Is the rule that there are no rules? Or is that perhaps only for those with perfect ears, who knows exactly when and what rules to break? I have really no idea of what I'm doing or what is going on, but I know what I like... Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichG Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I don't know a heck of a lot of theory and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night, but I'd call it C, not Dm Interested to hear the right answer Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I don't know a heck of a lot of theory and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night, but I'd call it C, not Dm Interested to hear the right answer Rich Thanks for the input. Dm is the first chord, and also the last chord before the pattern repeats. That why I didn't think the key should be C, but I also think the correct chord for the key of Dm should be Am7, not A7 as I use. And in the famous words of The Smiths: "What Difference Does it Make?" And, please fill me in on the Holiday Inn reference. That one blew by me like a speed train Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Many different opinions on theory.... Music being an art-form....there are rules there to be broken.... Personal guidance would be to study the Beatles' songbook to obtain insight into what works where etc The Beatles were famous and unrepentant for being 'clueless' on theory...but had the all round genius and very theory-savvy George Martin to provide the occasional pointer.... The key of your song would generally be regarded as Dm, from the dominant chord A7 The dominant chord of Cmajor would be G7 Many great songs shift key, so can confuse the analysts Experience and hands-on study are IMO the ways to improve songwriting skills V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 And, please fill me in on the Holiday Inn reference. That one blew by me like a speed train Lars Lars, its a play on a series of US Holiday Inn Express (a hotel chain)television commercials from a few years ago. You sort of had to be there to appreciate them, and they are a bit of tongue-in-cheek irony that doesn't translate culturally very well. In other words, it's us strange Americans: don't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Might be an idea to take another look at the 'Angie' thread ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I figure it's Dm. Using a lot of minor chords will make for very somber songs. You might try the song in the key of F. The major chords are typically more bright and uplifting than their relative minors. Dm is the relative minor to F, and you can substitute F for Dm, or C for Am, or G for Em, etc. Kind of depends on the mood you want for the song...For myself, just so long as the chords are in the right key, I don't spend much time worrying about theory. I do a lot of chord substituting within my songs. I guess that's tied to theory, but I don't even think about it. I just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Lars, its a play on a series of US Holiday Inn Express (a hotel chain)television commercials from a few years ago. You sort of had to be there to appreciate them, and they are a bit of tongue-in-cheek irony that doesn't translate culturally very well. In other words, it's us strange Americans: don't worry about it. Thanks, Nick, I'll leave the light on for ya... :) Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Might be an idea to take another look at the 'Angie' thread ..... I did, and my head is still spinning... Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 "The sequence is Dm, A7, Dm, A7, F, C, Dm." The F-C section is what you hear in I Know you Rider (D). The melody on that number is in 2 different modes, or scale forms. To get the most out of the song, the D section is in mixlydian mode and the F-C section in Dorian. Your progression may be doing something similar, but we'd have to hear your number performed to see if the sequence flows or not. Find the tune within the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 "The sequence is Dm, A7, Dm, A7, F, C, Dm." The F-C section is what you hear in I Know you Rider (D). The melody on that number is in 2 different modes, or scale forms. To get the most out of the song, the D section is in mixlydian mode and the F-C section in Dorian. Your progression may be doing something similar, but we'd have to hear your number performed to see if the sequence flows or not. Find the tune within the changes. Nice analysis, Rambler, but don't Bogart that joint, my friend..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatbaroque Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I know in the past that forumite Zombywoof has opined (with some authority) that Dm is the saddest key of all. So if your song is is very, very , very sad....it's probably in Dm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Almost an aside... You ever hear that YouTube of the star spangled banner played in minor? Talk about vibe change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickthemiller Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I know in the past that forumite Zombywoof has opined (with some authority) that Dm is the saddest key of all. So if your song is is very, very , very sad....it's probably in Dm. Have to agree. I just strummed those chords and I'm sobbing my eyes out. Very sad, very sad indeed. Seriously, I know very little about theory but it's a minor key as far as my ears tell me and it's the ears that decide in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretplay Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Well I would change the last Dm to E7 and then move into a sub chorus (or chorus if you want a simple song) using Am and on from there.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 The sequence is Dm, A7, Dm, A7, F, C, Dm.I'm now trying to figure out how this fits with chord/key theory. Is this in the key of Dm? Yeah, I'd say Dm. It's a nice little sequence, especially the shift to F, C (which is the same chord interval as Dm -> A7). Returning "home" to Dm after F, C might be a little quick, but seems to work. "Theory" says that A7 (not C) would be the "strongest" chord from which to return home to Dm, so you might try that, if only to see the difference. I.e., Dm, A7, Dm, A7, F, C, A7, Dm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Ellison Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I would like to hazard a guess that 99.9% of all songs ever written did not follow a formula or employ strategies found in a book. This is a guess, I'm not betting any money on it. If you write a song you can have any chords you like. You are writing it, if you like it then it's right. Other people may or may not agree but they didn't write it. You did. You do not need permission. You only need agreement if you want the song to be popular. The knowledge of theory will only explain what happened after the event. The event itself is an act of creativity. It didn't exist, you wrote it and now it does. Theory allows people to talk about it. Theory says that in the key of Dm the chord of A7 is chord five of that key, the dominant seventh. It is frequently used as a leading chord to the tonic (Dm) and A7 to Dm can be used to bring a tune to an end, a musical full stop. The chords F and C are also chords that can be used in the key of Dm. Dm is the relative minor to F major. These two keys use the same notes, starting in different places, and have the same key signature in music notation. The scale of F major naturally produces the following chords; F, Gm, Am, B flat, C, D minor and E diminished. E diminished has three of the four notes found in C7 and C7 is far more common. The key of D minor can use the same chords. There is no law that says you have to stick with these chords. These are just the chords you can build with the notes in the scale of F major or D minor. You can use any notes that you like. The use of A7 instead of Am is also common, It has the note C# instead of C natural and the movement of C# in the chord A7 to D in D minor helps create that musical 'full stop'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Yeah, I'd say Dm. It's a nice little sequence, especially the shift to F, C (which is the same chord interval as Dm -> A7). Returning "home" to Dm after F, C might be a little quick, but seems to work. "Theory" says that A7 (not C) would be the "strongest" chord from which to return home to Dm, so you might try that, if only to see the difference. I.e., Dm, A7, Dm, A7, F, C, A7, Dm. An E or Em would also be a good transition back. Rider, again. Or the GDs take on Me an My Uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 "I would like to hazard a guess that 99.9% of all songs ever written did not follow a formula or employ strategies found in a book." Sort of, although there are stock changes (ragtime circle of firths, blues etc) that people gravitate toward. Plus the cultural sounds one grows up with support implicit formulas. "If you write a song you can have any chords you like." Yes, in abstract, but some of the outcomes might be, uhm, challenging form a melodic or harmonic standpoint ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Thanks guys for all the great input. Most seem to agree that the key is Dm, so that is what I'll call it for now. I'll post a version of the song once I have recorded something decent enough. The dicussion of keys remind me of a track on the Johnny Cash Uneathed box set (might be Bird on a Wire) were he is playing with a full string orchestra and he starts out the song with his capo on the "wrong" fret. When stopped by the band leader, Johnny quickly says "Oh, I'm so sorry, I was just doing it the way I wanted to." Jokingly, of course. Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I will put some stuff here, there are very smart music people here and I do not ever want to argue with them about this part of music creation and production, so here goes. Music Theory is language used to explain what we hear and why we hear it. That's first and foremost. In the olden days they needed to be able to speak to each other even though they didn't all speak the same languages in Europe. So when we say I IV V we are saying the chords used in whatever key we have decided on, and we can use our fingers up and down to indicate the key, sharps up and flats down, the number of sharps and flats tells the key, and you can transpose for your instrument from there. That is a very basic, pedantic look at it real quick like. I agree that not all songs are written from a theory correct point of view, that is true. It also happens to be that the correct use of theory, how to resolve, how to create tension and suspense, how to modulate and move, how to create mood, all these things do lead to music that is pleasing to the ear. Conversely, incorrect use of all of the above can lead to musical chaos, which the average ear doesn't really respond well to. So, if you want to write songs and communicate with other musicians about how to play them, and you want to communicate with yourself about how you made this song sound like this, learning the rudiments of theory is a great idea. Asking clowns like me on the internet why something does or doesn't work isn't a good career move. If you want to write and record something that may possible sound good to others, sound great in the headphones, and maybe even get a few downloads because it sounds nice and it satisfies some pop sensibilities of the human ear, it is good to know why and how music works the way it does, which means a good basic theory grasp is important. Listen to what the kids call "pop". Taylor and Bieber and all of them, they all get superbly built songs using all the latest gimmicks and tricks, but underneath it all is the very purposeful use of suspension and tension and resolution in the melody and the harmonies, musical and vocal. Sure it's formula, but when you hit one right it is just the best feeling when you play it back. Get a book or two, I don't have any recommendations it has been a long time since I studied theory, but it never leaves you and it helps you write sense making things that do what you want them to do, even if it is just for yourself. Good luck with it and above all just enjoy doing it. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainpicker Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Lars, if you know what you like and you can capture that creative flow that comes out of you, I say that's all that matters. Everything else is after the fact and outside of that creation. The human spirit needs another rule like the planet needs another smokestack. When the muse uses you as a conduit, listen up (and write it down). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 I find the last two posts above very interesting, kind of opposite sides of the same coin (thanks to both of you for the input). I tried writing this new song without guidance from my chord chart, as kind of a test of my own ear or musical compass. Althoug, the song is far from finished (partly because I spend too much valuable time on internet forums ) I guess in the end that the chord sequence I came up with for the most part agreed with the theory / or the theory agreed with my chords, depending on which side of the coin you prefer. So that is very useful to know going forward. My personal guess is that theory is even more valuable as a beginner, especially when playing with others. As suggested, it becomes the unspoken language. However, I really do think that the truly great artists and songwriters trust their own ears as to what works with their vision or not. As a big fan of Springsteen, it is also interesting to note that his early albums are full of different chords, varying tempos, and shifts in time signatures etc, while my personal favorite, Nebraska, is almost all basic three chord songs. His vision changed and he adapted his style to what he wanted to come out emotionally, less can surely be more if that is what is needed. Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 "Three chords and the truth"---Harlan Howard............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.