Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 I tried top wrapping yesterday. Just decided to do the experiment for myself. IMO there is a difference in feel and sound. I was surprised,really surprised, but it does seem to relax the feel of the instrument slightly and dare I say the word "sustain". Hmm. It's not a profound change in sound but as far as feel goes, I'm utterly convinced it isn't imaginary and is an actual difference. Strings feel a little "springy" and I think bends feel smoother, possible because of a change in required force. Dunno but I'm going to experiment further. Next step, 11s, then a completely straight neck with slightly higher action. I'm sure there's something there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromnabulax Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Honestly, one of the greatest discoveries I ever made for warm rounded tones was heavier strings and higher action! It's such a simple sounding concept, and yet it makes such a huge difference. And of course, it's also almost instantly reversible as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Here's my take: As a guy who often goes (went) between Fender and Gibson, there IS something to the way the palm rest on the bridge. Applies to any guitar. And get used to one guitar, and certain right hand habits are not available on another. (Or not). As an example, on an LP, the TOM bridge can be an anchor point. A Strat or Tele, not. But reverse that, Strat has strings very close the the body, thus can anchor there. LP- nope. Same thing Flat-top acoustic vs Arch-top acoustic. Pickguard on or off, etc. So...having said that, the right hand is MORE than we give it credit for, besides providing the rhythm, also mutes, also "feels". I think most of us do this intuitively, without notice. The meat: I think break angle over that critical point of the bridge effects the FEEL of the right hand. Being two handed in nature, what the right hand feels, we transfer and feel with the left hand. We use BOTH hands to feel a note, or make a note. When there is strings available behind the bridge to feel, it can change what we perceive, and feel as we make sound. So, said all that to say, my question to you would be how much of what you are experiencing is due to feel, technique, compared to the guitar reacting differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 I'm sure someone can prove scientifically, via blind listening, etc. that there is no difference in top wrapping. But I don't care. I like it, so I do it. It may well have to do with muting for me, since I am used to resting my heel on the strings of my Strats and Teles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Pippy pointed out in a text that I had just gone to new strings, and I polish frets at every change so they do feel that bit smoother after a string change. Now I'm wondering again. Hmmmm. Is it worth another set of strings to find out more?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinosauria Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 I'll be trying this out tomorrow. I have new black Plastics (inc pick guard) coming for my pewter SG. That guitar has a slightly more pronounced neck angle so the bridge sits quite high and the strings are resting on the back of the bridge. The tail piece would have to be raised higher than I'm comfortable with to prevent this so top wrapping will mean I don't have to raise it as high. I'll report back afterwards. My SGX had been top wrapped by the previous owner at some point and the tail piece had actually become grooved which could possibly lead to string snapping issues in the future. So that's something to look out for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8_4thesh0w Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Makes it easier to "bend" multiple strings at once. I think that's why a lot of players do it... it adds another dimension without adding a trem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 The ease of bending strings is the tension on them. The tension on them is between the bridge saddles and the nut. Just like the string doesn't know what it does after the nut, it doesn't know what it does after the bridge saddles, the tension is the same. It was "different" back then. Most of us tried it before Carter was president, it didn't do anything but look different. That's my hazy memory and I am stuck with it. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 ...Is it worth another set of strings to find out more?.... .... No. Just remove the strings; polish your frets; re-string them the correct way and see if it feels any different. Or here's an even better idea; Ask Simon and myself to come around. Give us each a beer - including yourself. Ask one of us to re-string your guitar in any way we like. Repeat this process (including the beer) twenty times. Playing the guitar yourself, blindfolded, if you can say with 95% accuracy "PeterPiperPickedaPeckofPickledPeppers" you get to keep the guitar. If not then Simon and I fight for it gets it. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 The ease of bending strings is the tension on them. The tension on them is between the bridge saddles and the nut. Just like the string doesn't know what it does after the nut, it doesn't know what it does after the bridge saddles, the tension is the same. It was "different" back then. Most of us tried it before Carter was president, it didn't do anything but look different. That's my hazy memory and I am stuck with it. rct The tention is on the entire length. The required tention to achieve a given pitch is fixed by the scale length but the amount of material over which the stretch is spread is not. I'm certain that the extra 3/4 of an inch of string affects the ease of bending. I'm also sure that difference is quite small and I can easilly bent a tone and a half with acoustic strings so I'm not sure that's an advantage really. That said, I'm very much leaning towards the theory that the sudden change I'm perceiving is down to new strings and freshly polished frets. I do note that the way top wrapping forces the tail piece to turn upwards at the back and more firmly contact and locate on the studs has potential to affect the sound but. Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 No. Just remove the strings; polish your frets; re-string them the correct way and see if it feels any different. Or here's an even better idea; Ask Simon and myself to come around. Give us each a beer - including yourself. Ask one of us to re-string your guitar in any way we like. Repeat this process (including the beer) twenty times. Playing the guitar yourself, blindfolded, if you can say with 95% accuracy "PeterPiperPickedaPeckofPickledPeppers" you get to keep the guitar. If not then Simon and I fight for it gets it. Pip. Remove the giving guitars away bit and I think you've just planned an event. When can you get a pass at the weekend though? This doesn't sound like a weeknight activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 The tention is on the entire length. The required tention to achieve a given pitch is fixed by the scale length but the amount of material over which the stretch is spread is not. I'm certain that the extra 3/4 of an inch of string affects the ease of bending. I'm also sure that difference is quite small and I can easilly bent a tone and a half with acoustic strings so I'm not sure that's an advantage really. That said, I'm very much leaning towards the theory that the sudden change I'm perceiving is down to new strings and freshly polished frets. I do note that the way top wrapping forces the tail piece to turn upwards at the back and more firmly contact and locate on the studs has potential to affect the sound but. Hmmm... This is fascinating stuff. I had forgotten about top wrapping. Thanks for the reminder, and keep posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 ...When can you get a pass at the weekend though? This doesn't sound like a weeknight activity... I knew the plan was flawed in some way. Drat and Double-Drat! ...I'm certain that the extra 3/4 of an inch of string affects the ease of bending... This length piqued my interest so I just extracted my digital caliper and the distance of my high-E to 'regular' egress is 1 7/16" as opposed to 1 11/16" to TDC of the stop-bar. I make that 1/4" (yes, I know; I'm pretty good at sums) out of a total string-post to 'regular' egress of 28 5/8" for the high E (I've just checked that too!). Other strings' ABR-1 to stop-tail distances will vary, of course, but so will nut to string peg so I'm not going to waste too much time on this... Expressing this 1/4" as a percentage of the stop-tail to string-post it works out as a difference of under 0.5%. The actual figure is 1/229th part of the whole. (In the voice of Harry Lime) 1/229th? Can your senses really be that sensitive, old chap? Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I knew the plan was flawed in some way. Drat and Double-Drat! This length piqued my interest so I just extracted my digital caliper and the distance of my high-E to 'regular' egress is 1 7/16" as opposed to 1 11/16" to TDC of the stop-bar. I make that 1/4" (yes, I know; I'm pretty good at sums) out of a total string-post to 'regular' egress of 28 5/8" for the high E (I've just checked that too!). Other strings' ABR-1 to stop-tail distances will vary, of course, but so will nut to string peg so I'm not going to waste too much time on this... Expressing this 1/4" as a percentage of the stop-tail to string-post it works out as a difference of under 0.5%. The actual figure is 1/229th part of the whole. (In the voice of Harry Lime) 1/229th? Can your senses really be that sensitive, old chap? Pip. But all of the string can stretch during a bend. The part after the bridge AND the part that wraps over the tail piece AND the part that goes back through the tail piece. The required lateral force to move the string a given distance decreases as the total length of the elastic material increases. You will have to bend the string further to increase the tention enough to get to the desired note of course but there will be a measurable change. I must be clear. None of this seems intrinsically "better" to me and I'm by no means sure it has actually made a difference but I think it's noteworthy nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I stopped debating with guitar players when it dawned on me that I was arguing with people who think they can hear paint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I've never tried top wrapping but the "easier to bend" concept doesn't really make much sense to me in theory. I see the ability to set the tailpiece lower as a possible advantage. My question is this; aren't those string ends uncomfortable under your palm? That part of the string usually has the end of the winding wrapped around where it's like a needle if it's sticking out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 My question is this; aren't those string ends uncomfortable under your palm? That part of the string usually has the end of the winding wrapped around where it's like a needle if it's sticking out Nah dude, those pokey bits are WAY back where the string exits the tailpiece - about two inches from the bridge where you actually rest your palm to mute anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 But all of the string can stretch during a bend. The part after the bridge AND the part that wraps over the tail piece AND the part that goes back through the tail piece... I didn't want to reply to this until I tried all of it out for myself just to make sure I knew what I was talking about and the answer is no; from what evidence I can obtain those bits do not count. No matter how hard you bend any string the parts behind the bridge and outward of the nut do NOT move. All stretch comes from the section between the bridge and nut. It's 100% obvious on the wound strings because the windings themselves would prohibit string 'creep' over either fulcrum and having carefully finely marked the plain-gauge strings even under ludicrous movements the strings remain fixed at the outboard sections. Try it out for yourself... Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I didn't want to reply to this until I tried all of it out for myself just to make sure I knew what I was talking about and the answer is no; from what evidence I can obtain those bits do not count. No matter how hard you bend any string the parts behind the bridge and outward of the nut do NOT move. All stretch comes from the section between the bridge and nut. It's 100% obvious on the wound strings because the windings themselves would prohibit string 'creep' over either fulcrum and having carefully finely marked the plain-gauge strings even under ludicrous movements the strings remain fixed at the outboard sections. Try it out for yourself... Pip. Try plucking the string behind the bridge and then again while bending the string-proper. The pitch rises. A far simpler experiment and more definitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Well..... I just read the whole thread again....to make sure... Please continue..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkesman Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Try plucking the string behind the bridge and then again while bending the string-proper. The pitch rises. A far simpler experiment and more definitive. I'd always assumed that the strings did move on either side of the bridge and nut and, having just tried Farns's suggestion on my LP and SG, the pitch definitely rises at both ends when the strings are bent. When I first got these two gits I spent a lot of time sizing the nut-slots and saddle notches to match the string sizes I use, and I always use a touch of automotive graphite grease on both ends when I do a string change. Both guitars stay in tune really well, regardless of heavy use and much string bending, so I guess it's all time well spent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Try plucking the string behind the bridge and then again while bending the string-proper. The pitch rises. A far simpler experiment and more definitive. Yup. I'll happily cede the point... Did you try the string re-string whilst they are still fresh? Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Yup. I'll happily cede the point... Did you try the string re-string whilst they are still fresh? Pip. No I haven't. Honestly though, the technically we've discussed was just that, a technicality, I've pretty much concluded that any difference I feeling in the real world is because of new strings and a fret polish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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