String bends

[Mjf222]

Hi all,

 

So my son got a 2016 LP Traditional for Christmas. He loves the guitar. He mentioned on many occasions that string bends are harder on the new LP compared to his Epi 1960 Tribute. I too can notice it takes more effort to bend on the 2016 LP... Both guitars have Ernie Ball Slinky 10's and were setup up with the same string height, neck relief, etc. My question is... What could contribute to the obvious additional effort to bend strings...

 

Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions

[scottpaine_69]

The traditionals do have the 50's rounded neck which is a bit fatter the the 60's slim tapper. That may be the differance. Out of my 3 les pauls (which have 3 differant type necks) The 60's slim taper is the easiest for me to play even though my first les paul which I still have and play has the 50's rounded neck.

[rct]

Taller frets with less crown are easier to bend than shorter narrower frets. LPCustoms of the 70's were tough to play as Les Pauls go. Look at the frets themselves and you will probably see a difference.

 

rct

[capmaster]

The traditionals do have the 50's rounded neck which is a bit fatter the the 60's slim tapper. That may be the differance. Out of my 3 les pauls (which have 3 differant type necks) The 60's slim taper is the easiest for me to play even though my first les paul which I still have and play has the 50's rounded neck.

Taller frets with less crown are easier to bend than shorter narrower frets. LPCustoms of the 70's were tough to play as Les Pauls go. Look at the frets themselves and you will probably see a difference.

 

rct

Very good points. I think it could indeed be the sum of neck and fret profiles here.

 

Playability is a book with lots of chapters, on fretting and picking as well. Every detail in design and construction has its advantages and shortcomings, further depending on the likes and habits of the individual player. One guitar might feel more handy for clean intonation of fretted chords, another one for bending. There will always be tradeoffs.

[IanHenry]

Maybe try different strings. My 2014 Traditional still has the Cleartone string that it came with and it's the easiest guitar that I've got to bend strings. I've assumed it was the strings since I got the guitar, I like them so much I'm dreading the day when I have to change them. I'll certainly buy some more. I'm still puzzled that it didn't come with Gibson strings.

 

 

Ian

[RobertAndersson]

 

...and were setup up with the same string height, neck relief, etc.

 

 

When I bought my 2nd LP I had it set up in the same way by the same luthier. Still, I felt a clear difference in feel and bend. After making some small adjustments myself (adding some relief, lowering the bridge) it suddenly felt the same, in fact even a bit easier to bend. Very small adjustments can make a difference.

 

//Robert

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "What could contribute to the obvious additional effort to bend strings..."

 

 

 

With respect.

 

This is the wrong question to be asking at this point in time.

 

It's a question that should have been asked as the Guitar was being accessed prior to purchasing the Instrument.

 

Forgive me for making that point, but consumers in general should be greater listeners and learners. Asking questions at just the right time, before they buy, is a great way to learn.

 

People in Instrument Stores, often act with a certain attitude, as if to Project the image they are Experts, (and that is true on both sides of the counter) when remaining a "Learner", taking real time, trying out, listening hard, absorbing lots and knowing a Real Expert to take along who can explain the reasons for differences, would make the world of difference to Selecting Instrument Choice.

 

 

 

I think that's a relevant point.

 

Well worth making, though I understand.

 

Some might not like that, no offense is intended.

 

 

 

 

Now.

 

The question you should be asking is : "what can I do to alleviate this issue now?"

 

So I have a number of helpful suggestions to offer to help you provided you are willing to change the whole basis of the actual question.

 

The first is, do nothing at all. One of the beauties of Owning Guitars, (whoever you are) is that with a Choice Available, Different Guitars tend to Push your Playing Style in a Different Way which can be a Tremendous Vehicle for Actively Differential Creativity. Whereas, 99.99 % of Performers are in reality, Carbon Copies of someone else, Alas!

 

So for Different Types of Music and Different Styles of Playing, Different Guitars will Excel within the Scope of that Particular Field. Furthermore along that vein, it may be that given Time and Genuine Application, Hidden Strengths will be subsequently discovered gradually and then it may finally emerge to become a Favourite Instrument. New Instruments do take a bit of getting used to, and time to get them how they suit you best, and for you to adjust yourself to the Instrument. The Guitar may turn out to be a Creative Push towards Hallmark Playing Characteristics that are Unique in Style. I hope so.

 

 

That said, my second point would be to Raise The Stop Bar very significantly above its lowest possible setting whilst still making sure its solidly safe. This height difference will have the effect of easing the break angle behind the bridge and will certainly make String Bending much easier, because the apparent tension over the bridge saddles will now seem far lower, enabling the Strings to "Give" far more easily, when they are being Bent. The End "Fixing" of the Vibrating String will be far less "Tight", if I might put it like that.

 

 

Along the same line, as a Third Point, you could Re-String the Guitar with the Strings entering the Stop Bar Tailpiece from the bridge side and then passing them over the TOP of the Stop Bar Tailpiece, before they go on to the bridge. This will enable you to gain even More Height to the Strings behind the bridge, Lowering the String Break Angle and Tension and Easing the String Bending even Further Still whist enabling the Tailpiece to be Very Secure. It's a Good Idea to buy a Big Thick Heavy Pencil Rubber and Place it under the Stop Bar when you Change Strings to prevent it falling off and causing Cosmetic Damage. Li'l Jimmy Page (a British Guitarist ) and Joe Bonamassa are amongst the Musicians that have used this Over The Top method of reducing String Break Angle to facilitate String Bending.

 

 

My fourth Point is to Change Out and Try, Different Brands of Strings. Although Core Piano Wire supplied by a limited number of main suppliers is widely used to Fabricate Guitar Strings manufactured by String Winders. (The terminology is an important differential here). Indeed, D'addario make Strings or Supply Cores for many Brands, Jim D'addario is on record as stating the Core Material Treatments Differ with certain Brands and String Properties, (along with tension and the ability to Bend a String) can thus be different.

 

Many people think that because D'addario supply Strings for Many Brands, or that the String Winders (who put the Windings on the Core Material to manufacture Strings) get the Piano Wire Cores (Jim also has his own Core Facility) from a Strictly Limited Number of Sources, that the Strings are in reality, all the same. This is not universally true, though there will be cases when it will be true. So find Guitarists that Play the way you like, (or your son) and see what they are using. It may be that you learn something to advantage and find that you discover a String, more to your liking, though inevitably, it will take a time to go through a number of Brands.

 

Ernie Ball is normally well regarded, though it might be worth looking at all the Various Types and learning about the differences between them, because you may find an advantage in doing so. Try till you find what works well, then stick with it. I always keep around 60 Sets of Spare Strings Available at any one time to cover all my Instruments (apart from the Strings on the Instruments themselves) and I always use Gibson Strings on my Gibson Guitars, the Pure Nickel which I think have a Better Tone and I believe, cause lower Fret Wear than Plated Strings with Harder Material Underneath the Soon Exposed Plating at the Fretted Points. But that's just my preference, others will have their own favorites.

 

 

My Fifth Point is to Consider Changing String Gauge. Certain well known Guitarists use 10's on most of their Electric Guitars but use 9's or even 8's on Certain Guitars for Certain Songs where they will be using Excessive String Bending, perhaps through Two Whole Tones even. Some excellent Luthiers believe that Changing String Gauge is the only way to Facilitate Excessive String Bending by Changing String. This is on the basis that the Core of any Given Gauge will only Bend so far. I definitely do not concur with that view, I think (as Jim D'addario states) because Different Brands have their String specially manufactured a Particular Way for their Target Market, especially if the Core Material is treated a particular way to make them have particular properties, as I explained above, there is mileage in Trying (Differently Treated Core ) Strings. Having stated my position about that, the Luthier/s I disagree with are right in that a Small Gauge will Bend Easier, albeit with a corresponding decrease in Volume of Tone Projection and probably easier and more regular String Breakage. The last point heavily depends on the Quality of the Player and just how far they Push the String Bending, in Particular. The salient point is, Lighter String Gauges will Bend Easier.

 

 

My sixth point is different to the above points in that whilst the above can be enacted straight away on your own, the next point demands the skill of a Highly Experienced Luthier. Some Guitars today are made with a Compound Radius Neck. At the nut end where String Bending is Less Likely and Chords are More Likely the Fretboard Radius is More Curvedly Rounded which makes Chording more Natural to the Fingers. But as you move Up The Neck, the Fretboard Radius Flattens Out where Chords (for many Players) will be Less Likely, but String Bending much More Likely. Put another way, the Fretboard Shape has been Optimised Differently Throughout its Length, to Facilitate Different Playing Styles, Commonly Used and Likely at those Relative Points Along the Neck. It involves Neck Width as well as Shape. Hang on a minute you might be thinking, that's too drastic I might as well buy another Guitar. But above I'm simply explaining a Principle, the idea behind a Compound Radius Fretboard and Neck so that you better understand my points which follow below. What is much more common, is what Luthiers call "Fall Away" where the Frets are Dressed Differently where a Traditional Acoustic Guitar Neck meets the Body of the Instrument. This Fall Away (of Progressively Lower Frets) ensures the Notes Ring Clear and there's no buzzing from the Strings, even when the Highest Notes are Played. So you understand, it's a normal Treatment and Technique in Guitar Building. Depending on the Skill of a Luthier and the Type of Frets used on the Guitar, it MAY be Possible (and Probably Is Possible) to Progressively Flatten Out and Further Lower the Higher Frets along the length of the Neck, which would Further Facilitate the String Bending Ability of that Particular Guitar. What I am advocating is a (degree of simulation) that lends toward some of the properties of a Compound Radius Neck, involving some very Subtle Fretwork and even possibly the Fretboard Radius Too. It's not easy to do, and demands an Expert Luthier, one specialising in Electric Guitars. If you ask on Frank Fords Frets.Net Luthier Fora, someone on that site, would, I know only too well, be completely able to do this for you.

 

A Luthier of the type that is familiar with very Demanding Players, and Adjusting the Instruments to their Tight Demands.

 

It can be done, though it would take Skill, Time and of course..

 

Money.

 

 

 

The Last Word.

 

Explains WHY my First Point.

 

Is So Necessary, and the Most Important of All.

[rct]

Quote: "What could contribute to the obvious additional effort to bend strings..."

 

 

 

With respect.

 

This is the wrong question to be asking at this point in time.

 

It's a question that should have been asked as the Guitar was being accessed prior to purchasing the Instrument.

 

Forgive me for making that point, but consumers in general should be greater listeners and learners. Asking questions at just the right time, before they buy, is a great way to learn.

 

People in Instrument Stores, often act with a certain attitude, as if to Project the image they are Experts, (and that is true on both sides of the counter) when remaining a "Learner", taking real time, trying out, listening hard, absorbing lots and knowing a Real Expert to take along who can explain the reasons for differences, would make the world of difference to Selecting Instrument Choice.

 

 

 

I think that's a relevant point.

 

Well worth making, though I understand.

 

Some might not like that, no offense is intended.

 

 

 

 

Now.

 

The question you should be asking is : "what can I do to alleviate this issue now?"

 

So I have a number of helpful suggestions to offer to help you provided you are willing to change the whole basis of the actual question.

 

The first is, do nothing at all. One of the beauties of Owning Guitars, (whoever you are) is that with a Choice Available, Different Guitars tend to Push your Playing Style in a Different Way which can be a Tremendous Vehicle for Actively Differential Creativity. Whereas, 99.99 % of Performers are in reality, Carbon Copies of someone else, Alas!

 

So for Different Types of Music and Different Styles of Playing, Different Guitars will Excel within the Scope of that Particular Field. Furthermore along that vein, it may be that given Time and Genuine Application, Hidden Strengths will be subsequently discovered gradually and then it may finally emerge to become a Favourite Instrument. New Instruments do take a bit of getting used to, and time to get them how they suit you best, and for you to adjust yourself to the Instrument. The Guitar may turn out to be a Creative Push towards Hallmark Playing Characteristics that are Unique in Style. I hope so.

 

 

That said, my second point would be to Raise The Stop Bar very significantly above its lowest possible setting whilst still making sure its solidly safe. This height difference will have the effect of easing the break angle behind the bridge and will certainly make String Bending much easier, because the apparent tension over the bridge saddles will now seem far lower, enabling the Strings to "Give" far more easily, when they are being Bent. The End "Fixing" of the Vibrating String will be far less "Tight", if I might put it like that.

 

 

Along the same line, as a Third Point, you could Re-String the Guitar with the Strings entering the Stop Bar Tailpiece from the bridge side and then passing them over the TOP of the Stop Bar Tailpiece, before they go on to the bridge. This will enable you to gain even More Height to the Strings behind the bridge, Lowering the String Break Angle and Tension and Easing the String Bending even Further Still whist enabling the Tailpiece to be Very Secure. It's a Good Idea to buy a Big Thick Heavy Pencil Rubber and Place it under the Stop Bar when you Change Strings to prevent it falling off and causing Cosmetic Damage. Li'l Jimmy Page (a British Guitarist ) and Joe Bonamassa are amongst the Musicians that have used this Over The Top method of reducing String Break Angle to facilitate String Bending.

 

 

My fourth Point is to Change Out and Try, Different Brands of Strings. Although Core Piano Wire supplied by a limited number of main suppliers is widely used to Fabricate Guitar Strings manufactured by String Winders. (The terminology is an important differential here). Indeed, D'addario make Strings or Supply Cores for many Brands, Jim D'addario is on record as stating the Core Material Treatments Differ with certain Brands and String Properties, (along with tension and the ability to Bend a String) can thus be different.

 

Many people think that because D'addario supply Strings for Many Brands, or that the String Winders (who put the Windings on the Core Material to manufacture Strings) get the Piano Wire Cores (Jim also has his own Core Facility) from a Strictly Limited Number of Sources, that the Strings are in reality, all the same. This is not universally true, though there will be cases when it will be true. So find Guitarists that Play the way you like, (or your son) and see what they are using. It may be that you learn something to advantage and find that you discover a String, more to your liking, though inevitably, it will take a time to go through a number of Brands.

 

Ernie Ball is normally well regarded, though it might be worth looking at all the Various Types and learning about the differences between them, because you may find an advantage in doing so. Try till you find what works well, then stick with it. I always keep around 60 Sets of Spare Strings Available at any one time to cover all my Instruments (apart from the Strings on the Instruments themselves) and I always use Gibson Strings on my Gibson Guitars, the Pure Nickel which I think have a Better Tone and I believe, cause lower Fret Wear than Plated Strings with Harder Material Underneath the Soon Exposed Plating at the Fretted Points. But that's just my preference, others will have their own favorites.

 

 

My Fifth Point is to Consider Changing String Gauge. Certain well known Guitarists use 10's on most of their Electric Guitars but use 9's or even 8's on Certain Guitars for Certain Songs where they will be using Excessive String Bending, perhaps through Two Whole Tones even. Some excellent Luthiers believe that Changing String Gauge is the only way to Facilitate Excessive String Bending by Changing String. This is on the basis that the Core of any Given Gauge will only Bend so far. I definitely do not concur with that view, I think (as Jim D'addario states) because Different Brands have their String specially manufactured a Particular Way for their Target Market, especially if the Core Material is treated a particular way to make them have particular properties, as I explained above, there is mileage in Trying (Differently Treated Core ) Strings. Having stated my position about that, the Luthier/s I disagree with are right in that a Small Gauge will Bend Easier, albeit with a corresponding decrease in Volume of Tone Projection and probably easier and more regular String Breakage. The last point heavily depends on the Quality of the Player and just how far they Push the String Bending, in Particular. The salient point is, Lighter String Gauges will Bend Easier.

 

 

My sixth point is different to the above points in that whilst the above can be enacted straight away on your own, the next point demands the skill of a Highly Experienced Luthier. Some Guitars today are made with a Compound Radius Neck. At the nut end where String Bending is Less Likely and Chords are More Likely the Fretboard Radius is More Curvedly Rounded which makes Chording more Natural to the Fingers. But as you move Up The Neck, the Fretboard Radius Flattens Out where Chords (for many Players) will be Less Likely, but String Bending much More Likely. Put another way, the Fretboard Shape has been Optimised Differently Throughout its Length, to Facilitate Different Playing Styles, Commonly Used and Likely at those Relative Points Along the Neck. It involves Neck Width as well as Shape. Hang on a minute you might be thinking, that's too drastic I might as well buy another Guitar. But above I'm simply explaining a Principle, the idea behind a Compound Radius Fretboard and Neck so that you better understand my points which follow below. What is much more common, is what Luthiers call "Fall Away" where the Frets are Dressed Differently where a Traditional Acoustic Guitar Neck meets the Body of the Instrument. This Fall Away (of Progressively Lower Frets) ensures the Notes Ring Clear and there's no buzzing from the Strings, even when the Highest Notes are Played. So you understand, it's a normal Treatment and Technique in Guitar Building. Depending on the Skill of a Luthier and the Type of Frets used on the Guitar, it MAY be Possible (and Probably Is Possible) to Progressively Flatten Out and Further Lower the Higher Frets along the length of the Neck, which would Further Facilitate the String Bending Ability of that Particular Guitar. What I am advocating is a (degree of simulation) that lends toward some of the properties of a Compound Radius Neck, involving some very Subtle Fretwork and even possibly the Fretboard Radius Too. It's not easy to do, and demands an Expert Luthier, one specialising in Electric Guitars. If you ask on Frank Fords Frets.Net Luthier Fora, someone on that site, would, I know only too well, be completely able to do this for you.

 

A Luthier of the type that is familiar with very Demanding Players, and Adjusting the Instruments to their Tight Demands.

 

It can be done, though it would take Skill, Time and of course..

 

Money.

 

 

 

The Last Word.

 

Explains WHY my First Point.

 

Is So Necessary, and the Most Important of All.

 

What?

 

rct

[Mjf222]

I could have been clearer in my initial post.... The guitar was played prior to purchase. Something changed over the past 30 days causing the issue. Guitar was in its case for 30 days after purchase and held until Christmas. Played for 2-3 days and noticed the issue

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Quote: "What could contribute to the obvious additional effort to bend strings..."

 

 

 

With respect.

 

This is the wrong question to be asking at this point in time.

 

It's a question that should have been asked as the Guitar was being accessed prior to purchasing the Instrument.

 

Forgive me for making that point, but consumers in general should be greater listeners and learners. Asking questions at just the right time, before they buy, is a great way to learn.

 

People in Instrument Stores, often act with a certain attitude, as if to Project the image they are Experts, (and that is true on both sides of the counter) when remaining a "Learner", taking real time, trying out, listening hard, absorbing lots and knowing a Real Expert to take along who can explain the reasons for differences, would make the world of difference to Selecting Instrument Choice.

 

 

 

I think that's a relevant point.

 

Well worth making, though I understand.

 

Some might not like that, no offense is intended.

 

 

 

 

Now.

 

The question you should be asking is : "what can I do to alleviate this issue now?"

 

So I have a number of helpful suggestions to offer to help you provided you are willing to change the whole basis of the actual question.

 

The first is, do nothing at all. One of the beauties of Owning Guitars, (whoever you are) is that with a Choice Available, Different Guitars tend to Push your Playing Style in a Different Way which can be a Tremendous Vehicle for Actively Differential Creativity. Whereas, 99.99 % of Performers are in reality, Carbon Copies of someone else, Alas!

 

So for Different Types of Music and Different Styles of Playing, Different Guitars will Excel within the Scope of that Particular Field. Furthermore along that vein, it may be that given Time and Genuine Application, Hidden Strengths will be subsequently discovered gradually and then it may finally emerge to become a Favourite Instrument. New Instruments do take a bit of getting used to, and time to get them how they suit you best, and for you to adjust yourself to the Instrument. The Guitar may turn out to be a Creative Push towards Hallmark Playing Characteristics that are Unique in Style. I hope so.

 

 

That said, my second point would be to Raise The Stop Bar very significantly above its lowest possible setting whilst still making sure its solidly safe. This height difference will have the effect of easing the break angle behind the bridge and will certainly make String Bending much easier, because the apparent tension over the bridge saddles will now seem far lower, enabling the Strings to "Give" far more easily, when they are being Bent. The End "Fixing" of the Vibrating String will be far less "Tight", if I might put it like that.

 

 

Along the same line, as a Third Point, you could Re-String the Guitar with the Strings entering the Stop Bar Tailpiece from the bridge side and then passing them over the TOP of the Stop Bar Tailpiece, before they go on to the bridge. This will enable you to gain even More Height to the Strings behind the bridge, Lowering the String Break Angle and Tension and Easing the String Bending even Further Still whist enabling the Tailpiece to be Very Secure. It's a Good Idea to buy a Big Thick Heavy Pencil Rubber and Place it under the Stop Bar when you Change Strings to prevent it falling off and causing Cosmetic Damage. Li'l Jimmy Page (a British Guitarist ) and Joe Bonamassa are amongst the Musicians that have used this Over The Top method of reducing String Break Angle to facilitate String Bending.

 

 

My fourth Point is to Change Out and Try, Different Brands of Strings. Although Core Piano Wire supplied by a limited number of main suppliers is widely used to Fabricate Guitar Strings manufactured by String Winders. (The terminology is an important differential here). Indeed, D'addario make Strings or Supply Cores for many Brands, Jim D'addario is on record as stating the Core Material Treatments Differ with certain Brands and String Properties, (along with tension and the ability to Bend a String) can thus be different.

 

Many people think that because D'addario supply Strings for Many Brands, or that the String Winders (who put the Windings on the Core Material to manufacture Strings) get the Piano Wire Cores (Jim also has his own Core Facility) from a Strictly Limited Number of Sources, that the Strings are in reality, all the same. This is not universally true, though there will be cases when it will be true. So find Guitarists that Play the way you like, (or your son) and see what they are using. It may be that you learn something to advantage and find that you discover a String, more to your liking, though inevitably, it will take a time to go through a number of Brands.

 

Ernie Ball is normally well regarded, though it might be worth looking at all the Various Types and learning about the differences between them, because you may find an advantage in doing so. Try till you find what works well, then stick with it. I always keep around 60 Sets of Spare Strings Available at any one time to cover all my Instruments (apart from the Strings on the Instruments themselves) and I always use Gibson Strings on my Gibson Guitars, the Pure Nickel which I think have a Better Tone and I believe, cause lower Fret Wear than Plated Strings with Harder Material Underneath the Soon Exposed Plating at the Fretted Points. But that's just my preference, others will have their own favorites.

 

 

My Fifth Point is to Consider Changing String Gauge. Certain well known Guitarists use 10's on most of their Electric Guitars but use 9's or even 8's on Certain Guitars for Certain Songs where they will be using Excessive String Bending, perhaps through Two Whole Tones even. Some excellent Luthiers believe that Changing String Gauge is the only way to Facilitate Excessive String Bending by Changing String. This is on the basis that the Core of any Given Gauge will only Bend so far. I definitely do not concur with that view, I think (as Jim D'addario states) because Different Brands have their String specially manufactured a Particular Way for their Target Market, especially if the Core Material is treated a particular way to make them have particular properties, as I explained above, there is mileage in Trying (Differently Treated Core ) Strings. Having stated my position about that, the Luthier/s I disagree with are right in that a Small Gauge will Bend Easier, albeit with a corresponding decrease in Volume of Tone Projection and probably easier and more regular String Breakage. The last point heavily depends on the Quality of the Player and just how far they Push the String Bending, in Particular. The salient point is, Lighter String Gauges will Bend Easier.

 

 

My sixth point is different to the above points in that whilst the above can be enacted straight away on your own, the next point demands the skill of a Highly Experienced Luthier. Some Guitars today are made with a Compound Radius Neck. At the nut end where String Bending is Less Likely and Chords are More Likely the Fretboard Radius is More Curvedly Rounded which makes Chording more Natural to the Fingers. But as you move Up The Neck, the Fretboard Radius Flattens Out where Chords (for many Players) will be Less Likely, but String Bending much More Likely. Put another way, the Fretboard Shape has been Optimised Differently Throughout its Length, to Facilitate Different Playing Styles, Commonly Used and Likely at those Relative Points Along the Neck. It involves Neck Width as well as Shape. Hang on a minute you might be thinking, that's too drastic I might as well buy another Guitar. But above I'm simply explaining a Principle, the idea behind a Compound Radius Fretboard and Neck so that you better understand my points which follow below. What is much more common, is what Luthiers call "Fall Away" where the Frets are Dressed Differently where a Traditional Acoustic Guitar Neck meets the Body of the Instrument. This Fall Away (of Progressively Lower Frets) ensures the Notes Ring Clear and there's no buzzing from the Strings, even when the Highest Notes are Played. So you understand, it's a normal Treatment and Technique in Guitar Building. Depending on the Skill of a Luthier and the Type of Frets used on the Guitar, it MAY be Possible (and Probably Is Possible) to Progressively Flatten Out and Further Lower the Higher Frets along the length of the Neck, which would Further Facilitate the String Bending Ability of that Particular Guitar. What I am advocating is a (degree of simulation) that lends toward some of the properties of a Compound Radius Neck, involving some very Subtle Fretwork and even possibly the Fretboard Radius Too. It's not easy to do, and demands an Expert Luthier, one specialising in Electric Guitars. If you ask on Frank Fords Frets.Net Luthier Fora, someone on that site, would, I know only too well, be completely able to do this for you.

 

A Luthier of the type that is familiar with very Demanding Players, and Adjusting the Instruments to their Tight Demands.

 

It can be done, though it would take Skill, Time and of course..

 

Money.

 

 

 

The Last Word.

 

Explains WHY my First Point.

 

Is So Necessary, and the Most Important of All.

 

 

Your first mistake was to assume this hadn't happened since purchase. I think that's an important point, ya! Ya.

 

Your second mistake was to approach the question, which was essentially "why?", as a different question, "how can this be changed/corrected?". While that might be the OP's goal it was never there in the OP. That makes you come across as arrogant. Some people might find that offensive but I'm just saying. Ya, ya.

 

The last mistake was that most of your rambling solution was utter pish. I'm sorry if that offends you but the style you took on put you very much in the throwing stones category, the nonsense you spoke put you firmly in a glass house.

[capmaster]

I could have been clearer in my initial post.... The guitar was played prior to purchase. Something changed over the past 30 days causing the issue. Guitar was in its case for 30 days after purchase and held until Christmas. Played for 2-3 days and noticed the issue

It is very likely that slight deviations occur during the first weeks after setup for a different string make. Typically subtle refinements of truss-rod adjustment, bridge and thus string height, and intonation might be required.

 

Beware of servicemen who try to talk you and your son into having more things done! If materials and workmanship are fine, it won't take anything else.

[kidblast]

any one thought of raising the stop bar on the one that feels like it has more resistance?

 

after all that does have something to do with string tension..

[capmaster]

any one thought of raising the stop bar on the one that feels like it has more resistance?

 

after all that does have something to do with string tension..

The breaking angle across the bridge won't affect the tension of a properly tuned string. It only depends on string gauge and scale length.

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "Something changed"

 

- Snipped for Shortness -

 

Quote: "Played for 2-3 days and noticed the issue"

 

 

 

 

It's extremely common.

 

For Musicians involving a wide array of Differing Instruments.

 

To notice at Home, both Positive and Negative Aspects, that weren't apparent to them "In Store".

 

The reasons behind this are Manifold, and involve Focus of Brain Attention, which shuts out certain types of sensory information to Aid Specific Concentration.

 

Perhaps you have noticed someone looking at you or into the mid distance, yet you can tell they are not really looking at you. One can tell they are Concentrating Hard on Something. Perhaps Musing Over a Very Important Issue.

 

When the Emotions are Strongly Involved, (and I believe Guitar Purchases are Strongly Emotional Decisions in the main) I think Players Overlook Particular Important Issues simply because of how the Brain Functions and How its Handing an Overload of Conflicting Information. I've written about the affects of Short Term Memory Previously. The Brain is Selective about what is Chooses to be Conscious Of.

 

It's often harder for Players to be as Objective as they perhaps Believe Themselves to be. This is another reason why taking another person you trust can help. Other reasons can involve Not Taking Enough Time, Thoroughly Testing and Examining the Instrument, Self Consciousness in a Public Place, In Store Feature Lighting and Sound Room as well as Background Noise, in what can sometimes be an extremely distracting Environment, involving Serious Pressure with a Decision, Involving what would usually be a Relatively Large Amount of Money.

 

Sometimes people notice an issue prior to purchase, but immediately discount and discard it as they shuffle Pro's and Con's about in their mind regarding a Specific Instrument. Completely Forgetting what they had already noticed but Joyfully Dismissed as they Emotionally Prioritised their Purchasing Agenda in their Minds, they later re-discover the same issue, experiencing it now as a Solid Negative. Generally, All Musical Instruments have Pros and Cons and a Potential Purchaser usually "Balances" these matters, in what appears to be a Largely Subconscious Manner, as they narrow their Choice. They want they Impossible, a Guitar that is Ideal for Every Occasion.

 

 

 

This... Is the reason, you can never have, Too Many Guitars.

 

 

 

To be fair, I also think it takes a Lot of Time to Mature, and some of us will of course, never fully make it.

 

Guitars can change sat in their cases. But Acoustics more so than Solid Body Electrics.

 

An Inability to Bend Strings, Doesn't Figure there in my experience.

 

I think it's far more likely you and your son.

 

Are becoming genuinely familiar.

 

With the Instrument.

 

As it is.

[IanHenry]

Quote: "Something changed"

 

- Snipped for Shortness -

 

Quote: "Played for 2-3 days and noticed the issue"

 

 

 

 

It's extremely common.

 

For Musicians involving a wide array of Differing Instruments.

 

To notice at Home, both Positive and Negative Aspects, that weren't apparent to them "In Store".

 

The reasons behind this are Manifold, and involve Focus of Brain Attention, which shuts out certain types of sensory information to Aid Specific Concentration.

 

Perhaps you have noticed someone looking at you or into the mid distance, yet you can tell they are not really looking at you. One can tell they are Concentrating Hard on Something. Perhaps Musing Over a Very Important Issue.

 

When the Emotions are Strongly Involved, (and I believe Guitar Purchases are Strongly Emotional Decisions in the main) I think Players Overlook Particular Important Issues simply because of how the Brain Functions and How its Handing an Overload of Conflicting Information. I've written about the affects of Short Term Memory Previously. The Brain is Selective about what is Chooses to be Conscious Of.

 

It's often harder for Players to be as Objective as they perhaps Believe Themselves to be. This is another reason why taking another person you trust can help. Other reasons can involve Not Taking Enough Time, Thoroughly Testing and Examining the Instrument, Self Consciousness in a Public Place, In Store Feature Lighting and Sound Room as well as Background Noise, in what can sometimes be an extremely distracting Environment, involving Serious Pressure with a Decision, Involving what would usually be a Relatively Large Amount of Money.

 

Sometimes people notice an issue prior to purchase, but immediately discount and discard it as they shuffle Pro's and Con's about in their mind regarding a Specific Instrument. Completely Forgetting what they had already noticed but Joyfully Dismissed as they Emotionally Prioritised their Purchasing Agenda in their Minds, they later re-discover the same issue, experiencing it now as a Solid Negative. Generally, All Musical Instruments have Pros and Cons and a Potential Purchaser usually "Balances" these matters, in what appears to be a Largely Subconscious Manner, as they narrow their Choice. They want they Impossible, a Guitar that is Ideal for Every Occasion.

 

 

 

This... Is the reason, you can never have, Too Many Guitars.

 

 

 

To be fair, I also think it takes a Lot of Time to Mature, and some of us will of course, never fully make it.

 

Guitars can change sat in their cases. But Acoustics more so than Solid Body Electrics.

 

An Inability to Bend Strings, Doesn't Figure there in my experience.

 

I think it's far more likely you and your son.

 

Are becoming genuinely familiar.

 

With the Instrument.

 

As it is.

 

 

Wow Anthony you must have a lot of time on your hands!

 

 

Ian

[capmaster]

Quote: "Something changed"

 

- Snipped for Shortness -

 

Quote: "Played for 2-3 days and noticed the issue"

 

 

 

 

It's extremely common.

 

For Musicians involving a wide array of Differing Instruments.

 

To notice at Home, both Positive and Negative Aspects, that weren't apparent to them "In Store".

 

The reasons behind this are Manifold, and involve Focus of Brain Attention, which shuts out certain types of sensory information to Aid Specific Concentration.

 

Perhaps you have noticed someone looking at you or into the mid distance, yet you can tell they are not really looking at you. One can tell they are Concentrating Hard on Something. Perhaps Musing Over a Very Important Issue.

 

When the Emotions are Strongly Involved, (and I believe Guitar Purchases are Strongly Emotional Decisions in the main) I think Players Overlook Particular Important Issues simply because of how the Brain Functions and How its Handing an Overload of Conflicting Information. I've written about the affects of Short Term Memory Previously. The Brain is Selective about what is Chooses to be Conscious Of.

 

It's often harder for Players to be as Objective as they perhaps Believe Themselves to be. This is another reason why taking another person you trust can help. Other reasons can involve Not Taking Enough Time, Thoroughly Testing and Examining the Instrument, Self Consciousness in a Public Place, In Store Feature Lighting and Sound Room as well as Background Noise, in what can sometimes be an extremely distracting Environment, involving Serious Pressure with a Decision, Involving what would usually be a Relatively Large Amount of Money.

 

Sometimes people notice an issue prior to purchase, but immediately discount and discard it as they shuffle Pro's and Con's about in their mind regarding a Specific Instrument. Completely Forgetting what they had already noticed but Joyfully Dismissed as they Emotionally Prioritised their Purchasing Agenda in their Minds, they later re-discover the same issue, experiencing it now as a Solid Negative. Generally, All Musical Instruments have Pros and Cons and a Potential Purchaser usually "Balances" these matters, in what appears to be a Largely Subconscious Manner, as they narrow their Choice. They want they Impossible, a Guitar that is Ideal for Every Occasion.

 

 

 

This... Is the reason, you can never have, Too Many Guitars.

 

 

 

To be fair, I also think it takes a Lot of Time to Mature, and some of us will of course, never fully make it.

 

Guitars can change sat in their cases. But Acoustics more so than Solid Body Electrics.

 

An Inability to Bend Strings, Doesn't Figure there in my experience.

 

I think it's far more likely you and your son.

 

Are becoming genuinely familiar.

 

With the Instrument.

 

As it is.

Through all the years it never kept me from successfully setting up for different string brand and gauges, and refining adjustments some weeks later.

[pippy]

- Snipped for Shortness -

There. Fixed.

 

Seriously, Anthony.

Trying to help is nice, of course, but you'll find that many more IMOs; a few more IMXs and a lot less Pontificating will go down better with the troops.

 

Pip.

[kidblast]

The breaking angle across the bridge won't affect the tension of a properly tuned string. It only depends on string gauge and scale length.

 

IME,, I think it actually does make a difference.

[jdgm]

I have two points.....

 

1) Break angle: I have archtops with a shallow break angle and the section of string behind the bridge vibrates or resonates enough for me to want to damp it off. So it certainly does make a difference to the sound when you have a trapeze tailpiece, and I think there is a critical distance for that to start happening. Also seems to me that possibly a shallow break angle might make strings feel livelier?

I'm not so sure a stopbar-type tailpiece close to the bridge has much effect at all on actual string tension at pitch, whichever way you put on strings.

 

Gibson ES175 with Bigsby, note felt/velcro mute at right of pic -

 

 

 

 

2) Disagree all you like but I am willing to bet that at least part (and maybe most) of the OP's string tension problem is due to too much relief in the neck and if so, the truss rod would need tightening; counter-intuitive perhaps but fits in with what I have experienced.

 

Very interesting thread!

[Mjf222]

Wow!!! I truly appreciate the replies!!! Great info and a great forum.... One last question...Does a roller bridge make a difference in string tension feel???? That is truly the only difference in hardware between both guitars....

 

Once again thanks for the input..

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "Break angle:"

 

 

Gibson manufacture certain Guitars that are to Original Specification.

 

And also manufacture, modern variants and versions, of the Same Model.

 

One such instance is the SJ-200 with an Original Bridge with Two Rows of Inlay.

 

The Modern Standard Version of the SJ-200 however, only features, One Row of Inlay.

 

The Original Specification bridge allows for a Shallow Break Angle, and Drives the Top Less.

 

The Modern Standard has a Sharper Break Angle and thereby Drives the Top Rather More Vigorously.

 

So According to the Gibson Guitar Company, Sharpness or Shallowness of Break Angle Definitely Makes a Difference to the Resonate Response of the Instrument, due to Basic Physics.

 

The Length of a String influences a Strings Tension. A Long Scale Guitar has to have More Tension for the Same Pitch than a Shorter Scale Guitar. This is WHY a Les Paul Excels for Particular Styles as the Instrument of Player Choice.

 

What is Happening when a Les Paul or 335 Stop Tailpiece is Raised High, is that although the Strings Vibrate from Nut to Bridge Saddle, when Bending the String it Acts to the Fingers as if they are Pushing against a Far Longer String altogether, but at a Lower Tension because of the Relative Ease of a Straighter String Pull.

 

So the Tactile Impression to the Players Touch, due to the Ease of String Pull through the Saddles is that for any Given Pitch and Tension, the String is now Several Inches Longer, making it Simulate Qualities Inherent in a Looser Tensioned String. It is the Effect of this Impression and Apparent Increase in String Length, that Facilitates Superior String Bending Qualities.

 

Every Guitar has a Portion of the String from Nut to Bridge Saddle Which Vibrates at Pitch Tension. Theoretically, the Tension of a Correctly Pitched String does not Change, though in Practice (as Opposed to Theory) when you Stretch a String Enough, it Starts to go Out of Pitch. As this Alteration in Tuning Pitch happens very often indeed whenever you Bend a String, this will Inevitably Alter, the True Tension of the String in Practice.

 

However its more complex than that, because Every Guitar has a Portion of their String, Behind the Bridge Saddles and Behind the Nut. The Sharpness or Shallowness of the Break Angles, Either Side of the Vibrating String, Greatly Affect the Playing Feel of the Instrument to the Players Touch. Leo Fender made much of this UNASSAILABLE FACT, when he Launched his Electric Guitar Models, Marketing Them as Having a Straight String Pull to the Machine Heads. He also uncharacteristically wasted a Great Deal of Money on Factory Plant Machinery when Too Quickly attempting to move from Prototyping the Stratocaster Tailpiece to Series Production. Early Prototypes Lacked Sufficient Sustain, prompting a Re-Design and Engineering, involving Better Raw Material and More New Machinery.

 

So the Effect of the Non-Vibrating Portion of the String on an Instruments Resonant Qualities as Well as a Players Touch and Feel is Indefatigably Proven by the Entire History of the Development of the Guitar, both for Acoustic, Semi-Acoustic and Solid Body Electric Instruments.

 

The SJ-200 Appeared Around 1937 so it's not exactly a New Phenomenon. This is Scientifically Measurable, but Easily Proven by anyone through Simple Adjustments.

 

Gibson's have a Sharper Headstock and Nut Break Angle than other Brands so String Bending may well Appear to some to be Harder at that Particular End.

 

Adjustment in Feel, is therefore by the Stop Bar Tailpiece Height, well suiting a Playing Style which Bends Strings, High Up the Fretboard.

 

 

 

 

How to Test this Yourself.

 

Raise the Stop Bar Tailpiece as High as Possible.

 

Tune the Low E String to C and Dial it in with a Continually Reading Tuner.

 

Lower the Stop Bar Tailpiece to its Lowest Possible Setting and Now Read the Pitch its Showing.

 

If the Pitch has Risen Measurably, During this Process, then the String Tension will have Increased Accordingly, Altering In Step with the Change in Pitch.

 

If you Reverse this Process and Find that a (Now Higher Pitched) E String, Lowers in Pitch as you Raise the Stop Bar Tailpiece, you can be Assured that the String Tension will now have Decreased Accordingly, Altering In Step with the Measurable Change in Pitch.

 

This doesn't mean that a Vibrating String, Changes in Tension when the Pitch is Completely Stable. It doesn't. the Salient point is that when you Adjust the Stop Bar Tailpiece Height, it has an Easily Proven, Measurable Effect on the String. Most Significantly, it Alters the Feel of the String to the Players Touch, upon the Fretboard and is Especially Noticeable in Facilitating String Bending, but This Adjustment also Affects the Sonic Resonance of the Instrument Too.

 

 

 

 

In Theory, there's No Difference between Theory and Practice, but In Practice, There Is!

 

 

 

 

Quote: "Very interesting thread!"

 

 

 

One Trusts So.

 

 

 

 

Quote: " Does a roller bridge make a difference in string tension feel????"

 

 

It does indeed.

 

Furthermore The Bigsby Does Feel Better Too.

 

And Many Problems Typical to the Bigsby can be Alleviated and Eliminated by Altering the String Break Angle between the Bridge Saddles and the Bigsby Vibrato Itself.

 

In Point of Fact, an Inventive Bigsby Enthusiast has Developed and Marketed a Special Roller Device that can be Retro-Fitted to Bigbys, which help with a Smoother Player Use and Far Better Pitch Stability, when Returned to its Neutral Default Position.

 

It Achieves this Remarkable Feat by Altering the Break Angle over and beyond the Bridge Saddles so that the Strings Address the Bigsby at a More Suitable Pitch. Changing Out The Spring for a Different Tension Helps Smoothen Things Too. If you search Frank Fords Frets.Net there was a Thread on this Device, explaining in Detail How it Works. That was over the last year or two.

[rct]

Leo Fender made much of this UNASSAILABLE FACT, when he Launched his Electric Guitar Models, Marketing Them as Having a Straight String Pull to the Machine Heads.

 

Nope, his straight string pull was a consequence of using the lumber as efficiently as possible.

 

He also uncharacteristically wasted a Great Deal of Money on Factory Plant Machinery when Too Quickly attempting to move from Prototyping the Stratocaster Tailpiece to Series Production. Early Prototypes Lacked Sufficient Sustain, prompting a Re-Design and Engineering, involving Better Raw Material and More New Machinery.

 

Nope again. "Sustain" was not in his vocabulary, or Georges, or Bill Carsons. Redesigns were solely Leos decisions, and 100% based on cost to produce. If anything he redesigned down from expensive, and sustain had nothing to do with it.

 

Everything about Leo and how he did it is written down, and I've read it all in the past 44 years of playing the guitar. Try again.

 

rct

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "Try again."

 

 

 

No Problem at all.

 

I'll Fill the Gap in your Knowledge.

 

Bill Carson, Fenders Professional Player in the Field.

 

Field Tested the First Prototype of Vibrato, courtesy of George Fullerton.

 

The First Prototype was completely different to the Vibrato we are familiar with today on Stratocasters.

 

Carson's report was Damning, he rang Leo up to complain that the Guitar with that Unit sounded bad "like a Cheap Banjo".

 

George Fullerton by this point had come to exactly the same conclusion, and after talking with Carson told Leo "it Sounds like a Tin Can".

 

He concluded that the Units Light Weight and lack of what we now know as an Inertia Bar, caused a Distinct Loss of both Resonance and Notes to Sustain.

 

 

 

This is WHY it sounded like a Cheap Banjo, Banjo's have Very Little Sustain.

 

 

The Unit was Scrapped Completely and Freddie Tavares was brought in along with a Number of Additional Field Testers to Re-Design the Unit from the Ground Up.

 

Further Testing and Modifications, mainly from Carson, finally resulted in the Vibrato Unit we are Familiar with Today, of course, Factory Tooling had to be Designed and Fabricated Too, obviously involving Additional Time and Money.

 

Carson and Fullerton claimed that the Vibrato Prototype Fiasco, Delayed the Introduction of the Fender Stratocaster by a Year, from Mid 1953 to Mid 1954, Tavares recollection was that it Delayed it at least 6 Months, in line with his thought that the entire Vibrato Development took a Year.

 

Of course, you have to reflect that he was only dealing with the Vibrato, after the Failure of the 1st Prototype. So to my mind this "hands on difference" would account for the discrepancies in accounts which are in any case an entirely normal event in all true witness accounts. Anyway, you can read all about this in the Widely Acclaimed Book "The Stratocaster Chronicles" Celebrating 50 years of the Fender Stratocaster by Tom Wheeler, in Chapter One, "In the Beginning" - "The Tremolo Dilemma" start reading at the bottom of Page 49 onto Page 50.

 

 

 

Here's a Link to help you find it.

 

As with all due respect, You Do Not Appear To Be Well Read. (Unlike Tom Wheelers Books).

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stratocaster-Chronicles-Celebrating-Years-Fender/dp/0634056786/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452072416&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Stratocaster+Chronicles%3A+Celebrating+50+Years+of+the+Fender+Strat

 

 

 

Quote: "Everything about Leo and how he did it is written down, and I've read it all in the past 44 years of playing the guitar."

 

 

 

 

Again, with all due respect.

 

In the seemingly unlikely event, that any should be.

 

You now appear to be, what any Horticulturist would call, a "Blown Rose".

 

Making Great Claims for an Omniscient Knowledge that You Clearly and Demonstratively, Do Not Possess.

 

Thank You for Affording the Opportunity to Prove That Fact to Everyone Hereabouts, far beyond Any Measure of Argument or Further Dispute.

 

 

 

Courtesy of a few Moments Reading via Amazons "Look Inside" Function, for everyone here to read.

 

 

 

You appear to enjoy a laugh, and now yourself have become one!

 

 

 

Congratulations on that accomplishment.

 

 

 

Humour is a Funny Thing.

 

 

 

 

Quote: "He also uncharacteristically wasted a Great Deal of Money on Factory Plant Machinery when Too Quickly attempting to move from Prototyping the Stratocaster Tailpiece to Series Production. Early Prototypes Lacked Sufficient Sustain, prompting a Re-Design and Engineering, involving Better Raw Material and More New Machinery."

 

- Snipped for Shortness -

 

Quote: "Nope, his straight string pull was a consequence of using the lumber as efficiently as possible."

 

 

 

 

The comment "Nope".

 

Is Already Disproved and Discredited by Tom Wheeler.

 

Furthermore, you have omitted to include the relevant preceding comment.

 

Forgive me for Quoting the Earlier Post but the Section you Quoted has Relevance and Meaning Because of what Preceded It:

 

"Every Guitar has a Portion of their String, Behind the Bridge Saddles and Behind the Nut. The Sharpness or Shallowness of the Break Angles, Either Side of the Vibrating String, Greatly Affect the Playing Feel of the Instrument to the Players Touch."

 

 

 

That was my salient point, I'm glad you found no argument with it.

 

The Truth of my Following Comment is Historically Accurate, Recorded in Fenders Archived Printed Materials.

 

You appear to have completely missed the Deluge of Marketing Material. Pamphlets and Advertisements purposely generated by Fender Music I was inundated with.

 

These made SO MUCH of this Aspect of the Instruments Design. In my position at the time, I was swamped with their Printed Material, most especially later on, from Ivor Arbiter who was the U.K. Distributor for Fender. I was "involved with Arbiter" to a certain degree.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/ivor-arbiter-314771.html

 

http://www.feelnumb.com/2010/12/07/ivor-arbiter-the-man-that-unwittingly-designed-the-beatles-famous-drop-t-logo/

 

 

 

 

Straight String Pull affects Tuning and Vibration Transfer.

 

Though one could make a convincing argument that Fender Instruments did not have True Straight String Pull.

 

The Overall Length of the String, including the Parts Outside the Vibrating Section from Nut to Bridge Saddle, also Affects Tonality and Feel.

 

In Vienna, Johann Stauffer of Austria who Influenced CF Martin So Strongly, used Straight String Pull on his Early 19th Century Instruments, so this Idea was not a Fender Invention.

 

Though you Do Not Specifically State It, you are certainly correct in perhaps unconsciously implying something with an inference easy to take, that the lack of Neck Angle was a Consequence of Efficient Use of Lumber. Clearly, others had already Developed and Sold Instruments with this Type of Headstock before, and in America, Bigsby had done so. This wasn't a Flash of Genius.

 

How do you Sell a Very Ancient Idea, that had never ever been Properly and Professionally Marketed to the Modern Consumer? To my mind it was the Marketing and Advertising Material that Strongly Highlighted the Straight String Pull as an Entirely New Feature, that was the Most Notable Aspect of the Entire Issue. Fender and CBS Marketed this Feature, Powerfully. High in their Documented List of Features.

 

 

 

What you have to ask yourself is the following.

 

Whoever Heard Of or Talked About, "Straight String Pull" until Fender Pointed It Up through their Marketing Campaigns?

 

The Basic Design Idea, Existed for over 100 years before that, but even when that Headstock Design was Discussed, "Straight String Pull" was not the issue that was ever Focussed Upon.

 

Before Fender Marketed that Idea as a "Feature" of their Instruments, in effect Stealing Someone's Else's Genius, and presenting it as their own, no one ever seemed to Discuss, Write or Raise the Issue of "Straight String Pull".

 

 

 

That's My Point.

 

It was Part of a Marketing Strategy.

 

As I Faithfully and Truthfully Stated in my Earlier Post.

 

 

 

It's UNASAILABLE FACT!

 

 

 

Thank You for Another Interesting Discussion.

 

Though with respect, I believe Discussions Regarding Fender.

 

Are best left entirely to Another Fora altogether. This is a Gibson Fora after all.

 

 

 

Interesting as it is to Correct Your Lack of Knowledge as You Urged Me to Try - Try Yourself to Stay Relevant, and ON TOPIC, to the Title of the Thread!

[kidblast]

Anthony, buddy,, just a word to the wise as it were..

 

you can offer your opinions, and well all welcome debates and discussions on this board.

 

but just so ya know..

 

rct has probably forgotten things about this stuff that a lot of people will never even know as well as a long time, well respected contributor of this forum, and he's also someone I consider a friend.

 

it's a good policy to steer clear from personal attacks, and you'll enjoy your time here quite a bit more than you'd imagine.

 

just sayin...

[pippy]

I believe Discussions Regarding Fender Are best left entirely to Another Fora altogether. This is a Gibson Fora after all.

Forum is the singular noun; Fora is the plural.

"Another Forum" and either "This is a Gibson Forum" or "These are Gibson Fora".

 

Yours Sincerely,

The Grammar Police.