2016 J45 - Post setup niggle

[ajm68]

Hey guys - first message in the forum so, hi!

 

 

I got a 2016 J45 Standard at the end of last year. Loved it from the off but it was a bit tough to play up the neck and the 12 gauge strings that came with it felt awful "tight" which I found odd given the shorter scale neck than on my J200 which was slinky and good to go out of the case.

 

I got the guitar set up by a respected guy who did a great job getting the action down and it's pretty much as easy to play as my electric now - in fact, I've NEVER played an acoustic so easy. Lowering the action certainly gave me the "slink" I was looking for but there was the inevitable reduction in volume which I THINK I can live with.

 

Maybe I'm just fussy and need to live with it a bit longer but it's almost too "slinky" now and I'm missing a bit of the bite. I still have the strings it was shipped with (assume Gibsons) and am thinking about trying going up to 13's now I have the lower action and "slink" to try and re-dress the balance.

 

Anyone else had this kind of "issue"? Obviously need to experiment with various string makes and gauges but would love to hear of similar experiences of people post set-up

 

This isn't another "best string maker" query. It's more about compensating the loss of volume and compensating the now overly "slink".

 

Again - maybe I'm just fussy as I love this guitar.

[j45nick]

First, congratulations, and welcome.

 

Before going up in string gauge, experiment with some other types of 12's.

 

I use DR Sunbeam PB mediums (RCA 12), which are actually 12's with a slightly heavier (.054) low E string, which can give a bit more bite on the bottom end. They are also wound on round-core rather than hex-core wire, which makes them a bit easier to fret and bend than some other strings. I use these on all my Gibson flat tops, which include a J-45, an SJ, and an L-OO. They really shine on the slope-J's.

[ajm68]

First, congratulations, and welcome.

 

Before going up in string gauge, experiment with some other types of 12's.

 

I use DR Sunbeam PB mediums (RCA 12), which are actually 12's with a slightly heavier (.054) low E string, which can give a bit more bite on the bottom end. They are also wound on round-core rather than hex-core wire, which makes them a bit easier to fret and bend than some other strings. I use these on all my Gibson flat tops, which include a J-45, an SJ, and an L-OO. They really shine on the slope-J's.

 

Thanks - never tried those but many others on other non Gibsons. Guess I'll have to just enjoy the journey and will check them out on the way. I have a set of J Pearse 13s on the way just to get the 13 thing out of my head - might be pleasantly surprised might hate 'em. Only one way to find out and I'm sure it will be fun.

[duluthdan]

Hey 68 - welcome to the acoustic side of the Gibson forum. I like my guitars to exhibit a raw edge to the tone. The JP strings, such as you have on there now, were a little rough on my fingers. I have Curt Mangan 13's on my J-50, and I play Curt Mangan 12's on the 2 j-45s - both in 80/20 - once you get past the first day of zingy 80/20 newness, they offer a great tone - like biting into a crisp apple, I love it. The Sunbeams (12s) are rich and warm on the J-45 TV, and I rotate to those from time to time. Its a fun experiment to try different strings, but I have found the ones that suit me well. I think...

[BluesKing777]

Welcome to J45 Land!

 

I don't think I have ever heard of a guitar TOO easy to play in these pages Aren't you lucky?

 

It might be easier to get the luthier/guitar tech to address your issue instead of chasing it - he may have made the action a bit too low and need to re-do the work.

 

Strings - another option is the Elixir HD Lights where the 3 high strings are bumped up a bit, but the thicker strings remain normal. I had them on a D28 and the shop didn't have them last time and I put normal 12s back on but really notice the difference. I prefer the PBs.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[ajm68]

Thanks so far guys. I know the strings thing is totally personal experience after years of playing other guitars and this one is just the newbie.

 

Yup - lucky me. A guitar that IS too easy to play. The setup was only done a week ago and I had it a couple of days before having to travel. Back home tomorrow so will hopefully see it with different eyes. The setup IS crazy though. As low as my electric, no buzz and the strings feel like rubber bands. I think I may just have been recently spoilt.

 

There IS a real drop in volume because of the action and it's more mellow all round. Lost some of the "piano" on the low E.

[jedzep]

If your guitar guy lowered your strings by shaving down the saddle you could be screwed for tone, the loss of which isn't a very good sacrifice for playability. It would be interesting to know from where he attacked the problem. If the saddle did get a scalping I'd suggest you get a new piece of bone and have him compromise on the height to get the best of each. You need a good break angle off the saddle to get that top moving.

 

Like BK said, I don't think string experimentation is the best starting point.

[ajm68]

If your guitar guy lowered your strings by shaving down the saddle you could be screwed for tone, the loss of which isn't a very good sacrifice for playability. It would be interesting to know from where he attacked the problem. If the saddle did get a scalping I'd suggest you get a new piece of bone and have him compromise on the height to get the best of each. You need a good break angle off the saddle to get that top moving.

 

Like BK said, I don't think string experimentation is the best starting point.

 

Saddle WAS shaved. Needed it though as it was WAAAAY high. The nut grooves also got attention. It's still very early days as I only had it for one evening before I had to hit the road for a week. It's a better guitar than when I bought it, just have a niggle it could be a smidge better still.

 

Whatever - it's an awesome thing that's going to be around a looooong time.

[jedzep]

In your situation I guess I would like to have an 'in-between' saddle on hand to swap out and gauge the true change. Your fingers will only get tougher and stronger as you play along the years. That is, unless you're an old decaying stiff like me.

[ajm68]

In your situation I guess I would like to have an 'in-between' saddle on hand to swap out and gauge the true change. Your fingers will only get tougher and stronger as you play along the years. That is, unless you're an old decaying stiff like me.

 

That sounds like a top compromise and option. I'm loving the playability and it still sounds great. Hand strength isn't a problem as I have many years of playing. The difference in action up the neck was just too much out of the shop and barring was nigh impossible even for me even after the second fret, the saddle was that high.

[Mickthemiller]

Shim!!

[bobouz]

Shim!!

There you go. I shim saddles a lot, and sometime just on one side.

 

Thin birch sheets are available in hobby or hardware stores. Personally, I use thin pieces of hardwood (including birch) I've saved over the years.

 

My other comment would be that I often find volume to be an overrated virtue. There are many other facets to an acoustic instrument producing a satisfyingly beautiful tone. If you want loud, sometimes it's best to just plug in.

[ajm68]

Think I may have found the answer. Cheers. The volume isn't so much the issue. I mean it's still louder than most and if I want really loud I have the J200. Christ I'm blessed! The range of volume gives even more diversity between the two and the post set up J45 is a mellow thing indeed.

 

Nothing wrong in seeking perfection I guess!

[58 Relic]

You already have in in the J45 . I bought one last year best guitar I own my one has the Gibson specs for action 7/64th and 5/64th at the 12th fret . I also use 12 to 53 strings but I play with acrylic nails and a Fred Kelly speed thumb pick . My. Luthier told me if I take it any lower I'll be getting fret buzz when useing a capo , even now with this action I have to be careful when capoing above the 4th fret , just love the tone and sound so I live with the action . Good luck

[Fullmental Alpinist]

First, congratulations, and welcome.

 

Before going up in string gauge, experiment with some other types of 12's.

 

I use DR Sunbeam PB mediums (RCA 12), which are actually 12's with a slightly heavier (.054) low E string, which can give a bit more bite on the bottom end. They are also wound on round-core rather than hex-core wire, which makes them a bit easier to fret and bend than some other strings. I use these on all my Gibson flat tops, which include a J-45, an SJ, and an L-OO. They really shine on the slope-J's.

 

I really like the Sunbeams as well. The round core allows them to be at a much lower tension than conventional strings. I find that I can easily play 13s where I generally played 12s before. Sound-wise they are an interesting match for the Masterbilts and the Pyramid Folk Westerns. But the Sunbeams are much easier to play.

[58 Relic]

Just a thought , on my GS Mini e I use Medium Martin FX strings with a flexible core . You could try a set of 13s on your J45 these would give you the tone of a medium set but with the string tension and flexibility of 12s . This really works well on the GS . One thing I have come to realise is that the string tension on one set of 12s from one brand can be vastly different to another .

[E-minor7]

Hey Mister Newbie - Congratulations on the mellow J-45, , , they are wonderful, aren't they. .

And yes, of course goin' for the optimal is a part of the game.

If you're too low now, the mentioned hyper thin shim is an option, but what about the saddle itself. Is it the tusq material from Bozeman or do you drive bone.

 

Quite a difference there to be aware of.

 

It would be interesting to know from where he attacked the problem.

It would.

 

Saddle WAS shaved. Needed it though as it was WAAAAY high. The nut grooves also got attention.

So no truss rod adjustment happened - or perhaps it did in all secrecy. No matter what, your 'prob' is of course a no prob, but a challenge.

Only you know where the action is right and once in a while it takes time to get there - days, weeks, months.

 

One may be surprised about the degree of micro-sensitivity, which can develop during this search, , , and how good even the smallest change feels when you hit the spot.

 

Notice there is a possibility that higher gauge will cause higher action - so all in all 4 factors to work with :

The t-rod - the saddle - the nut grooves and the strings. Strings being the least important.

 

Enjoy the ride ^ and your arrival here

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "Lowering the action certainly gave me the "slink" I was looking for but there was the inevitable reduction in volume"

 

 

 

My Hunch would be that the Luthier adjusted the Saddle with the inevitable consequence of reducing the String Break Angle behind the Saddle.

 

As a Consequence, the Guitar functions with additional "slink" in ease of Playability and Fingering, but with a further inevitable consequence of Reducing the Dynamic that Drives the Instruments Top through the Bridge.

 

There is a Definite Point at which, a Number of Highly Desirable Aspects of a Guitars Features, begin to Conflict and Work Against Each Other, if one Elects to Optimise a Particular Feature, to the Extent that Another Desirable Feature, is Compromised by that Process.

 

 

 

Let's use an Analogy to help understand the Dilemma, imagining you are Designing a Car. Your Customers wants Low Fuel Consumption, but a Good Sized, Engine with Real Power. They want Low Exhaust Emissions but a Fast Car that Overtakes Well. They want the Vehicles Dimensions to be Small for Easy Parking, yet the Interior of the Vehicle to be Spacious, with Plenty of Room for Everything.

 

How do your Resolve all these Highly Desirable but Conflicting Issues?

 

Well you are Clear about the what is of Paramount Importance.

 

And Prioritise According to the Wishes of the Consumer.

 

How and Where you Compromise the Conflicts.

 

Is the Key to Superbly Designed Cars.

 

 

 

 

Where Guitars are Concerned Luthiers are Designers.

 

The Player themselves as an Individual, figure very Strongly into the Ideal Resolution.

 

Some people Play with a High Degree of Demonstrable Technique. Others Play with No Learned Technique Whatever.

 

As you can Imagine, this Player Variability, is Necessarily a Strongly Determinative Factor, Accommodating How the Instrument, will Mainly be Played, by a Specific Performer.

 

Overwhelmingly, the Majority of Problems Individuals have with Well Manufactured, New Guitars, Stem from a lack of Player Appreciation of their Own Impact and Limitations in Performing Technique.

 

It can Drastically Alter the Luthiers Focus, of Exactly How and Where the Best Compromise, is Best Achieved, to provide an Optimally Responsive Instrument, Properly Set up for the Specific Type of Playing Envisaged by their Customer.

 

At Best, Typical Guitar Factories, usually Supply their Instruments, Set Up, According to the Class of Instrument. Usually, they err to a side which everyone can generally live with, regardless of Player Ability. Specifically allowing an Easy Additional Adjustment by a Luthier to Accommodate Further Refinement, for Specific Individual Requirements.

 

 

 

But.

 

You Can Gain Something.

 

And Lose Something Else as a Result by that Gain.

 

And it is only by Experience and Maturity Over Time that One Appreciates this.

 

At a Practical Level, I would Strongly Encourage Players to Always Carry a Short Steel Ruler with 64th's as well as Metric Measurement.

 

Or a String Action Gauge which might be easier for many people. Stew Mac and others make and sell these type of Small, Handy, Basic Measurement Tools.

 

Every time you Play a Guitar in a Music Shop that you like, discretely whip out your Gauge and Very Carefully Measure the Action and any other Relevant Adjustments.

 

Keep a Notebook and Note the Make, Style and Type of Guitar that you really have taken a like to and Note those Measurements for Every Type of Guitar you Hope to Purchase.

 

Eventually, a Clear Pattern will Emerge as to What are the Ideal Set Up Preferences for You, for Any Popular Instrument as to How You Want them to be Adjusted. This will Aid You, in making Better Instrument to Instrument Comparisons when you are Purchasing. As you can take Measured Differences into Account.

 

Seymour Duncan Acquired his Encyclopedic Knowledge about Electric Guitar Pickups this Way. No one taught it all to him, he learnt it by Meticulously Taking Measurements and Keeping a Book to Note Them In. Producer Al Schmitt had a Note Book as a Boy in his Uncles Studio, and Noted Where to Lay Out the Musicians Seats and Put the Mic's.

 

It will Helpfully Inform the Luthier you ask to Set Up your Instruments, giving them Clear Ball Park Measurements, that they can use as a Fundamental Basic Platform to Work From, and Continue to Tweak and Optimise, Further Onward from that Point. However, there will be a Point at which Further Optimisation of One Aspect, Diminishes the Desirable Qualities of Another Feature.

 

 

 

It's a Reference.

 

But Mainly Experience Really Tells.

 

Where the Thresholds Lie, and When Exactly, to Stop Optimising.

 

But if a Player Demands a Specific Playing Characteristic, and Strongly Emphasises that Quality.

 

Then it is Likely that Another Desirable Playing Characteristic will be De-Emphasised and The Overall Set Up Compromised.

 

If you go up a Gauge, the Set Up will Possibly Require Further Optimisation and Other Factors will Enter the Equation. It might be as well if you are used to Playing Electrics and Like "Slink" to get Your Luthier to Make a New Bone Saddle.

 

This will Increase the String Break Angle and Maximise the Direct Coupling of the Strings to Drive the Guitars Top Dynamically. It will reduce "slink" but you will be retaining "slink " with the Lighter String Gauge. Mainly, you will be Restoring the Ideal Volume of Tone of the Instruments Projection.

 

 

 

Talk to your Luthier, explain the issues clearly.

 

Explore the possibility that the Point of Compromise.

 

Between these Different Desirable Issues, Ideally Require.

 

A Further Tweak to Give You the Right Balance of Features Needed.

 

Be strongly aware of Environmental Swings through the Changing Seasons.

 

Swelling and Shrinking if you live in an Un-Moderate Climate, Inherently Unstable.

[capmaster]

Hello Ajm, and welcome here.

 

If your guitar guy lowered your strings by shaving down the saddle you could be screwed for tone, the loss of which isn't a very good sacrifice for playability. It would be interesting to know from where he attacked the problem. If the saddle did get a scalping I'd suggest you get a new piece of bone and have him compromise on the height to get the best of each. You need a good break angle off the saddle to get that top moving.

 

Like BK said, I don't think string experimentation is the best starting point.

I agree totally. Low string action means thin tone, and no string gauge will be of help. Appropriate nut and saddle are crucial. Different string makes may call for slightly different actions, but different gauges of same make don't.

[blindboygrunt]

There are plenty of studies about break angle and its effect on the guitar .

While no break angle will leave the strings moving around on the saddle , the concensus is that if the string can be lifted off the saddle while tuned up then you are in a bit of diffs. Some have said that as long as you have as little as 6° of an angle then it shouldnt be an issue.

 

The shim solution would be an easy way to start fixing your problem.

See if its still comfortable action wise and if so then get a new saddle made to the new height.

 

This is assuming that the truss rod , nut , etc is all ticketyboo.

[Matt237]

Check the neck relief - I find a really straight neck can make the guitar super easy and slinky to play, but chokes the tone quite a lot. Try adding a small amount of relief to the neck and see if that helps. Normally around 0.010" is good.

[ajm68]

Update on this one - have put John Pearse 13's on (PB's) and the volume is right back where it was but the mellowness is missing. The top end is bright but almost too harsh. Certainly not subtle so I'm not pretty convinced to go back to 12's, shim the saddle a wee bit and experiment further with a few varieties of make around that gauge.

 

Really appreciate all the input here.

[jedzep]

Sounds like you need to wait until the new strings settle down, especially PBs. My Dunlops take a few days.

[ajm68]

Sounds like you need to wait until the new strings settle down, especially PBs. My Dunlops take a few days.

 

Been on nearly a week with a lot of playing.

[jedzep]

Guess that's a fair amount of time.

 

I only used Thomastic-Enfeld strings on my J-45. They started out mellow and stayed good for at least 6 months. Mandolin Bros. has ( or had ) a good deal on Ebay. I stocked up.