The Apple / FBI / Back Door Debate.....

[pippy]

Two observations, take them as you will:

 

1) If and when there is a Court Order it should be obeyed. That is how we do things.

 

2) Nothing will convince me that this stuff hasn't already been cracked long ago and all this is for public consumption. The resources available to the American NSA are vast and our own GCHQ is probably involved in it up to its neck.

I'm no lawyer by any means and I'm certainly not wishing to start a bunfight, Pin, but I'm pretty certain...

 

1) Court Orders can be contested if it is felt that there are grounds for such a challenge. I've seen (and given evidence on behalf of) a few Court Orders where the original decisions reached by the judiciary were nothing short of disgraceful and which were subsequently overturned on appeal. In these cases it was 'proper' for those concerned NOT to obey the original ruling.

 

2) Whilst I completely agree with the second part of this I'm not sure the first would make any sense in this particular instance as it would suggest that the FBI themselves were somehow complicit in providing Apple with an inordinate amount of free column inches!..............

 

 

Pip.

[Pin]

I'm no lawyer by any means and I'm certainly not wishing to start a bunfight, Pin, but I'm pretty certain...

 

1) Court Orders can be contested if it is felt that there are grounds for such a challenge. I've seen (and given evidence on behalf of) a few Court Orders where the original decisions reached by the judiciary were nothing short of disgraceful and which were subsequently overturned on appeal. In these cases it was 'proper' for those concerned NOT to obey the original ruling.

 

2) Whilst I completely agree with the second part of this I'm not sure the first would make any sense in this particular instance as it would suggest that the FBI themselves were somehow complicit in providing Apple with an inordinate amount of free column inches!..............

 

 

Pip.

 

Hi Pippy, yes of course the legal battle can (and probably will) work its way through and could end up in the US Supreme Court. At that point the decision stands.

 

As to the second matter the FBI may not even know. In a sense they may be the fall guy of a sort. I know this is a bit "conspiracy theory" and there is no way we will ever know in our lifetimes. I have no doubt the NSA already probably has several backdoors or has cracked the code in its entirety. But it could never admit to that so it is easier to hide behind the FBI and let them either get a precedent for access or fail to do so.

 

It wouldn't even surprise me that the NSA is annoyed at the FBI but some sort of compromise "limited access" claptrap would allow the NSA to continue hiding what must surely be true - it already has access. Remember the German's thought Enigma was secure. It would suit the NSA (and GCHQ) for people to continue to believe their iphones are secure.

[Murph]

I know it's your thread, but you haven't really joined the conversation.

 

 

I thought I was pretty clear, actually.

 

I trust Apple with my data FAR more than I trust the Government. I do NOT think the Gov. should be able to force Apple to supply them with a back door into my data. People die from terror attacks every single day, but my data won't prevent that. Our Borders are unsecure, even though the OVERWHELMING majority of Americans want it sealed and only LEGAL immigration to be allowed. They WON'T DO IT.

 

They are letting convicted criminals out early and releasing illegal aliens even though the overwhelming majority of Americans don't want this to happen. So saying the Government is US, is a little mis-leading, even though it is supposed to be.

 

IOS8 and the encryption was designed post Edwin Snowden. BECAUSE of Government overreach.

 

I mean no offense to anyone who might feel safer when the Government holds their hand, but I don't.

 

Just me.

[quapman]

There are two separate things going on here.

One is the big brother paranoia that the government is really interested in spying on the common Joe that for no good reason they

want to know everything about you.

The other is Apple protecting Apple. They have no intentions of protecting you. What do you suppose will happen if they hand over the

back door which can in turn open holes for scammers to exploit every known iLover out there.

They are done for thats what.

Apple is protecting Apple. End of story.

 

I have no problem with a court order if it's done right.

FBI give the phone to Apple.

Apple provide the info the feds are looking for.

Feds use info to continue the investigation and perhaps stop more nutjobs.

 

I have no problem if Apple assists them without telling them how to do it. The terrorists have no rights.

F*&ck em.

[Aster1]

For me it's just like wiretapping and other surveillance of the bad guys. It all is a case by case court order to protect rights. I don't agree that Apple HAS to create software to give to the Justice Dept. (don't trust them anymore than I trust Apple to not harvest data on people). They could get that ONE damn phone open and not revel any secrets. The big deal for them, IMHO is they sell a lot of phone to the world and many are purchased by bad people. I believe they are more invested in not losing world sales with showing they would help with a "back door" in a phone. They don't even need that back door. John McAfee has offered to crack the phone for free to the FBI and in 30 days. I agree that the feds & cops don't need to know every damn thing they want to know about everyone. That's a given in my book, but if you've broken the law, and esp. with a national security issue or terrorism, you just gave up a bunch of rights if the court says so.

 

Just me.

 

Aster

 

McAfee offer to FBI

[badbluesplayer]

I think we need to get together a battalion of moms with yardsticks and go into the FBI and whack their desks a couple of times and tell them to stop being so nosy and mind their own business. Tell them to go outside and play. Find a girlfriend.

[Murph]

McAfee agrees with me.

 

NO BACK DOOR.

 

I'm thinking the FBI will eventually simply let Apple do it, and then they can go back to trying to figure out what Hillary did and quit trying to guess passwords.......

[Aster1]

Yeah, like I said, NO BACK DOOR. But unlock the dang phones on a case by case need, get the info, round up and prosecute these b_stards and get them out of the way.

 

I think they already KNOW what Hillery did but they DOJ isn't going to let them go after here. If they do, I'm sure heads will roll all over the place and should for what was done.

 

Aster

[stein]

I think, cyber security, cracking codes and such is always going to be a back and forth between the "good guys" and "bad guys".

 

Especially, the more global things get.

 

Somewhere, at some point, someone WILL get the ability to hack into, and use it for theft of fraud or whatever. Better and more secure systems are temporary.

 

I really believe, in my heart of hearts, it will always be this way.

 

So...personally, I THINK moving forward, it's more of a solution to make efforts to give law enforcement abilities more quickly than slowly. The more the "bad guys" get busted or stopped, the harder it will be for systems to get hacked in the future.

 

On a philosophical note, it might not seem cool to give up rights to law enforcement entities or government, but eventually, "bad guys" are going to take those rights anyway. And they don't go by any laws or ethical codes.

 

I think we would all be better served by focusing on what law enforcement and government does with the info, and how they act ethically and morally, rather than the ethics and morality of letting them have it in the first place. THAT's something we have more control with.

[Hall]

wow!

[milod]

A couple of points here.

 

First, I've been involved in "the media" for a bit over 50 years and in that time nobody who knows me or has read much I've written has accused me of being "left wing media," regardless that I've always tried to write and photograph with truth and reality in mind, and to offer a broader view of issues whether it's in sports or political coverage.

 

Now to point:

 

1. Much of the area around me was hit by a cell phone and partial internet outage caused apparently by one cut fiber "wire." It lasted roughly 12 hours in a physical area probably roughly some 100 miles square, albeit more of an oblong than a square. One "wire."

 

2. We've all, IMHO, in the more "advanced" nations of the world given up the majority of our safety and privacy to others. If we have a "home" that is warm in cold weather, cool in the heat, utilities to cook food and power our various "devices," we're living in an interlocked society where there is little privacy and little personal control over our system of trading for those comforts.

 

Even a century ago that was largely lost compared to the mid 19th century when one might literally become "lost" to what powers that be, and reinvent oneself. Music: There even was a well-known song titled, "What was your name in the states," referring to many who used the American frontier pre-social security, drivers' licenses and credit cards as a place to be something other than how they were perceived in more settled areas. One of my favorite research projects in U.S. frontier history had to do with a guy who broke out of prison, became something of a gunfighter and increasingly a lawman, and ended up a highly-respected individual in his state government. Ain't likely in today's world.

 

3. Worldwide chaos? All it would take is another iteration of the solar flare of 1859. Worldwide reports on the effects of the geomagnetic storm of 1859 were compiled and published by American mathematician Elias Loomis. Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving telegraph operators electric shocks.[9] Telegraph pylons threw sparks.[10] Some telegraph operators could continue to send and receive messages despite having disconnected their power supplies.

 

Now, add that bit of perfectly natural occurrence to today's life and it would be tantamount to dropping the resources available to "us" to somewhat less than in 1859 because our lifestyles have made illegal much of what allowed a relatively comfortable life by 1859 terms for the average person. Forget electricity at home, any "computer" operation and most simple "electric" operation, even such as on a 1920 automobile since that would be fried. Logistics today are so computer/electronic controlled, at every level, I'd predict chaos.

 

4. Apple? Yeah, I think they're pushing the U.S. law and public safety to make a marketing point, but they're in business thanks to making marketing points.

 

5. Government overreach? Yup, for ages and in any country where there is any sort of infrastructure and finance system beyond that of the pre-electricity era. One might note that governments in general want as much control over as much of everything as they can - and "we" have been part of that, one way or another, through all recorded history. "The people" appear to have had some degree of voice in "government" going back to the earliest records, such as the epic of Gilgamesh written some 4,000 years ago. Regardless of tyranny, "the people" played a role in the culture that had any kind of "governance" beyond that of a neolithic nomadic tribe where some sort of patriarchy/matriarchy led an extended family.

 

6. Fight the good fight on privacy, safety or whatever, but realize that we already, largely unknowingly, are so tied to our material culture and technology that we only think we're "free" or that, through our pretense of politics, we have control whether individually or collectively. As long as there are huge and growing populations, the logistics become increasingly both complex and fragile - and increasingly dependent on some form of electricity and electronics.

 

Yeah, I'm pessimistic and cynical. But another Carrington event such as in 1859's geomagnetic storm could put us out of guitaring and most everything else for a long time - and that doesn't even consider electromagnetic warfare that makes even "hacker warfare" look like child's play at messing up a perceived "enemy."

 

At those points, Apple becomes quickly only a memory, as do our homes as comfortable shelters.

 

So... yes, the deal with Apple is important to us all, more than we really realize, but it's thanks to the way our culture has been developing. Any change, pro-Apple or anti-Apple, will frankly IMHO be irrelevant in five years, if not already today, because "we" made it this way.

 

m

[Hall]

Well put in the summary paragraph, milod. And it seems, well, sad.

[stein]

A couple of points here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

m

That's more than a couple points. Dang.

 

Sometimes, I think to myself, "What would MILOD say?", and usually, it makes me think and I actually find myself a bit wiser in the moment. Which is a good thing, meaning to say, your influence on me is a good one. (And I'm sure many others here).

 

As well, I always look forward to seeing what you actually WRITE, and wait, sometimes with anticipation.

 

And more often then not, regardless of how much I wait, and/or think about it, a surprise and a new perspective that I didn't or wouldn't have imagined.

 

Maybe it's cause you are a sort of genius, or that it's really from a cash of OLD perspectives you got there that you bring up whenever the current time has need of it. Likely, both.

 

Here's some perspective for ya: If you really want to go full circle, you get to heaven eventually instead of somewhere else. Cause from where I sit and see from, that's where you came from.

[flyingarmadillo]

Yeah, like I said, NO BACK DOOR. But unlock the dang phones on a case by case need, get the info, round up and prosecute these b_stards and get them out of the way.

 

I think they already KNOW what Hillery did but they DOJ isn't going to let them go after here. If they do, I'm sure heads will roll all over the place and should for what was done.

 

Aster

 

The problem is, that because of the way the security system was designed you can't hack the phone unless you create a backdoor, then upgrade the OS to include the backdoor. And once you've created a backdoor, it will get out past the original audience.

 

BTW, there are 12 other cases where the government has requested assistance from Apple in hacking an iPhone. Apple has denied them all and none of the courts has ruled against Apple yet. This is the first one the government has made public. None of the other cases involves terrorism, but this isn't about just one phone as the FBI claims.

[DBRUCE]

There are so many angles to this, it really is hard to expect everyone to know what is "right" in this matter.

 

I don't know if the "right to privacy" is about having the right to have a phone no one can hack, but rather, about the actions of law enforcement and govment.

 

Personally, I don't expect an un-hackable phone as a God given right, but I expect the Constitution to protect me from PEOPLE making efforts to hack my phone.

 

From both angles, we shouldn't have to rely on technology or ability to have our rights protected. If we do, the law isn't working. It's not, and shouldn't be an excuse for the actions of people/gov to look at technology and who has rights or doesn't based on what technology or ability they may have or be able to obtain.

 

So I guess my argument, is if we look at this as Apple protecting our rights, or look at it as having the right to have stuff the Gov can't hack, we have already lost. We SHOULD be able to freely carry a phone knowing the Gov can hack it, and feel safe it about it because we HAVE rights and have law, not technology.

 

I think maybe that what's "right" gentlemen, (and Ladies), is that our Constitutional rights be strictly adhered to , as set forth by the Founding Fathers. Go Apple !!!!!

[DBRUCE]

WTF?

 

The media no longer reports the day's events. It hasn't for decades now. What they report is personal opinion put forth as instruction on what we are supposed to believe. Listen to the daily reports on all the different networks/channels. They all use the same phrases and have the same slant. It cannot be coincidence. They must all be getting their "marching orders" from the same place, somewhere "above".

[DBRUCE]

WTF?

 

WTF what?

[DBRUCE]

Because of my tinfoil hat which also repels the CIA, but not the IRS!

 

Because the American media wants what they want

[stein]

I think maybe that what's "right" gentlemen, (and Ladies), is that our Constitutional rights be strictly adhered to , as set forth by the Founding Fathers. Go Apple !!!!!

I agree. But I don't recall anything in the constitution that Apple is protecting us from, or anything that really applies here.

 

Of corse, with all the technology, it's really necessary to look into these things. Not suggesting we re-write the Constitution, but rather, we properly apply it in issues we haven't experienced yet.

 

Which part of the constitution are you referring to?

[DBRUCE]

It is a difficult and complex question, and I agree we must ask it of ourselves - as have people for centuries. But I disagree that it has to be either/or - black or white. Admittedly the easiest route to safety is for citizens to give up freedoms - and we have. But is that the only way? Because it seems to me that once we give up liberties we rarely get them back.

 

Post 9/11 the Patriot Act resulted in a massive loss of civil liberties, and we accepted it because we wanted to feel safe. But is there any way to know if wire tapping and the suspension of Habeus Corpus have made us safer? Or is it possible that we could find a way to ensure safety and preserve those liberties? I tend to think we could - but not if we always take the easy way out and abandon our liberties at every terrorist act.

 

Well spoken.....The intent here is not protection. Logic dictates there is nothing on dead Johnny Upchuck Faroooks work phone or he would have destroyed it along with their personnel phones before he got dead. The intent here is to whittle away our Liberty and Freedom until we can no longer speak our minds, no longer protect ourselves, no longer assemble, no longer enjoy the great outdoors, no longer be Americans, leaders of the Free World. Something is coming people. We cannot sustain this level of national debt. It has to come tumbling down. The young American Idiots who think everything should/could be free ( as in zero cost), are going to lead the way into the abyss. I saw a bumper sticker once....it said.....PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION WHILE IT'S STILL STRONG ENOUGH TO PROTECT YOU ! There is nothing else like it on Earth. Never has been. It, and Capitalism, are what won the war fought by our "Greatest Generation". It's why France and England don't speak German, and we don't speak Japanese. Warning! this has been an attempt at morbid humor and rational thought and in no way reflects the opinions or views of this stations management. Thank You

[DBRUCE]

I agree. But I don't recall anything in the constitution that Apple is protecting us from, or anything that really applies here.

 

Of corse, with all the technology, it's really necessary to look into these things. Not suggesting we re-write the Constitution, but rather, we properly apply it in issues we haven't experienced yet.

 

Which part of the constitution are you referring to?

 

Apple is not standing for OUR rights. They are trying to express their right to not be obliged to submit to the unconstitutional whims of the government. In the same way as we were all obliged to purchase Obamacare because a federal judge decided that the government had the right to dictate that we must all purchase a particular product. Where is that in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights ? The problem seems to be judges who legislate from the bench, (create law) a President that abuses the intent of "Separation of Powers", and a Congress, or at least a particular political party thereof, that believes in what they themselves call a "Living Constitution", something to be manipulated, bent, shaped, and formed, to this day and age, which it sounds like you have referred to. These are the things destroying our way of life and our future. The Constitution must be viewed as the Fathers intended....a static thing....as though written in stone...unchanging... Bottom Line: I believe the Founding Fathers wished to protect us from our own government, and government sees this as an obstruction to the kind of control that they desire. Read history. this type of control is not new. It's been given titles like Socialism, Communism, and others. A definition of insanity is doing the same old thing, and expecting a different outcome.

[stein]

Apple is not standing for OUR rights. They are trying to express their right to not be obliged to submit to the unconstitutional whims of the government. In the same way as we were all obliged to purchase Obamacare because a federal judge decided that the government had the right to dictate that we must all purchase a particular product. Where is that in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights ? The problem seems to be judges who legislate from the bench, (create law) a President that abuses the intent of "Separation of Powers", and a Congress, or at least a particular political party thereof, that believes in what they themselves call a "Living Constitution", something to be manipulated, bent, shaped, and formed, to this day and age, which it sounds like you have referred to. These are the things destroying our way of life and our future. The Constitution must be viewed as the Fathers intended....a static thing....as though written in stone...unchanging... Bottom Line: I believe the Founding Fathers wished to protect us from our own government, and government sees this as an obstruction to the kind of control that they desire. Read history. this type of control is not new. It's been given titles like Socialism, Communism, and others. A definition of insanity is doing the same old thing, and expecting a different outcome.

OK...let me try again.

 

Easy. question: Quote or tell where in the constitution, please.

[jdgm]

This is a very good thread so I hope it doesn't end up getting locked.

 

I am in the UK so only an interested bystander (at the moment).

[pippy]

...I saw a bumper sticker once....it said.....PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION WHILE IT'S STILL STRONG ENOUGH TO PROTECT YOU ! There is nothing else like it on Earth. Never has been...

Magna Carta. Runnymede, England, 1215.

A mere 572 years earlier.

 

"...Magna Carta and its protection of ancient personal liberties......influenced the early American colonists in the Thirteen Colonies and the formation of the American Constitution in 1787, which became the supreme law of the land in the new republic of the United States..."

 

You're welcome.

 

Pip.

[rct]

OK...let me try again.

 

Easy. question: Quote or tell where in the constitution, please.

 

The saddest fact about America is that those spouting their spittle laden rhetoric about the Constitution at the top of their lungs have, for the most part, never even seen the thing, and they definitely haven't had a US Government class in any form of secondary school. Your mission, Stein, is futile.

 

Ask him about the Constitution and iPhones, and then ask about the Constitution and seating a Supreme Court justice. They usually suddenly have an appointment they have to get to.

 

rct