Wiggle room on Price of a new guitar?

[stein]

My 2 cents:

 

Buying a new guitar, financially, is always a loss. That is, like a car, it's worth less than you paid the moment you walk out the door. Used though, is much the same. You MAY be able to sell a used guitar for what you paid, but rarely does it happen, and there IS cost associated in selling, even buying.

 

So why buy a new one? Because you get to choose, you get to PLAY them, and play many. You don't get your money back, but what you get is a guitar that YOU like, and hopefully, worth it to you based on what you find.

 

Example: suppose, you could find a guitar used all day for 2k, but new it's 3k. If you PLAY and shop enough, it's pretty easy to find a guitar new for 3k that YOU like at least as well as a guitar you can find that is supposedly "better" that sells used for 3k. You might have a better financial position buying used, but as a player, you haven't got your value.

 

So for me personally, I don't care to nickel and dime a shop, to spend or save an extra few hundred bucks. I am looking for the guitar that suits ME, and where that extra money paid is, did I have service? Was it fun? I'm already paying for the privilege of shopping and trying, so I want the shop to earn their part and I want to feel good about who gets what I worked for.

[modoc_333]

I think there is value in playing the guitar before you buy it. If you walk into a store and fall in love with one particular piece of wood, it would not be a fair match for the store to price match your sight unseen offer from across the country. they may be the same model, but they aren't the same thing. on one hand you know what you have and if you like it. on the other hand, you have no idea. you also get to take one home immediately and can (or should be able to) take it back to the local store you bought it from to get service (initial setup, etc). those things have value.

 

All stores pay the same price to Gibson for the guitars. Don't let the GCs of the world fool you. the one store will ship you a guitar for less... but that could be for many reasons. For starters, they don't have to support that sale. there is no service involved. no setup. no time spent with you. nothing. just shipping a box.

you will also find stores that will dump inventory just to be able to order enough from Gibson to keep the line... of course that can only be kept up for so long. there are some deeper problems with that strategy too, but we won't get into that.

 

 

 

like i said earlier: consider ALL factors and ALL things of value (service, convenience, etc). Then ask yourself, "is this guitar worth this many dollars to me today?"

 

 

 

 

Keith

[rct]

All stores pay the same price to Gibson for the guitars.

 

If this is true it would be the biggest change in this business in a long time. But I don't think it is.

 

rct

[MorrisrownSal]

I bet Bailey Brother (modoc) would work hard to price you right. Two other places that price Gibsons well, and have great quality inventory from my own personal experience.... Wildwood in Colorado and Fuller's in Houston.

 

I have bought from the sight unseen and have been pleased. My J50 is from Fuller's.

[modoc_333]

If this is true it would be the biggest change in this business in a long time. But I don't think it is.

 

rct

 

 

it's what i do for a living. it's true.

 

 

there are some other brands where buying more will get a dealer a better price. but those numbers aren't so high that only GC can buy that many. we are talking about buying 12 instead of 1. things like that. GC gets some other perks from vendors (including Gibson) but the pricing is the same. GC gets perks such as being one of the few dealers able to sell online, or getting the Pro series of Montana guitars built just for them while other dealers can't do special runs right now.

 

 

Keith

[BirdMan81]

So what are the chances GC matches my low price?

[BirdMan81]

So what are the chances GC matches my low price?

[j45nick]

So what are the chances GC matches my low price?

 

 

Your guess is as good as anyone's. Don't guess: ask!

[bayoubengal1954]

So what are the chances GC matches my low price?

 

Hard to know, but i know what I would do if I were in your shoes. You will get to play the GC guitar from what I understand. If I decided it is THE one and everything I hoped for, I would try to get them to match the $3100 price you were quoted. If they will come down in that ballpark (let's say within $200) I would buy that guitar because I've played it and loved it.

 

If the guitar didn't really give me THAT feeling I would buy the other guitar from the small shop for $3100 and ask about their return policy.

 

As others have stated, it is worth it to me to pay a little more for a guitar I've actually played and loved.

[modoc_333]

Hard to know, but i know what I would do if I were in your shoes. You will get to play the GC guitar from what I understand. If I decided it is THE one and everything I hoped for, I would try to get them to match the $3100 price you were quoted. If they will come down in that ballpark (let's say within $200) I would buy that guitar because I've played it and loved it.

 

If the guitar didn't really give me THAT feeling I would buy the other guitar from the small shop for $3100 and ask about their return policy.

 

As others have stated, it is worth it to me to pay a little more for a guitar I've actually played and loved.

 

 

 

+1

 

 

 

 

 

Keith

[BirdMan81]

Thanks guys! That's the plan, headed down to GC tomorrow. For what it's worth (and in case anyone else is ever in my shoes ...Wild Wood Guitars would even come down to meet the Sweetwater price of $3680.00 and Wildwood has a 48 hour return policy....I think guitar center is 45 days return policy? If I recall the small shop that quoted me the best price said they had a decent return policy and they would go over every inch of the guitar and set it up before they shipped it.

[KHT]

May be just me but, I have no problem using the ADVERTISED prices of a retail establishment to negotiate a lower price with another store, but I am uncomfortable calling dealers and getting them to offer low prices when I am not interested in buying from them just using their good faith offer to negotiate with another. Especially when it is an offer I would be willing to accept other than the fact that I want a particular guitar only available at the other dealer.

[badbluesplayer]

Just remember that GC doesn't have the best reputation overall for dealing with customer service issues.

[fortyearspickn]

As Keith said - a 'good deal' has to be a Win/Win for both sides. He touched on the concept of margins of 5% on all items would put a store out of business before too long. Mathematically - doesn't matter if the store is a standalone bricks and mortar or a Big Box. A margin that low is not enough to sustain a business, and one of the basic tenets of a business (a Real business - not someone selling home made Christmas ornaments out of their garage) is that it will sustain itself and grow. If you can't demonstrate 'profitability' over 5% - you won't get anyone other than yourself to invest in your business. And, after a few years - you'll find you don't want to either.

So - how many picks and strings does a store have to sell at 10% to offset making ZERO profit/margin on a $3K guitar? Tons. Look at the GC mailers and ads. They run sales on lower cost items (and one or 2 more expensive items they're trying to move) ALL for the purpose of getting foot traffic. They want you to come in to buy strings hoping you will save yourself a couple of bucks, and will fall in love with the $6K Martin in the hermetically sealed display case right inside the front door. Big Box, Little Box - they can't sell you (us) guitars at a loss hoping they'll make it up on picks and string and straps and things.

High end guitars are a 'specialty item', not a 'commodity'. ($100 guitars made in China are a 'commodity') High End makers have a strategy of making as many different models and varieties of models as they can - so we are more likely to fall in love with one that isn't easily found and easily negotiated for. Yes, they have to offer 'standards', but they (and their 'real' customers - the stores) prefer to focus on 'Limited Runs of 50" so it is harder to find a comparable one to dicker on price wise. Yes - you can find 3 or 4 nationwide if you are lucky. But you are extremely lucky if you can find just one within 100 miles so you can go play it.

So - at the end of the day, BIrdMan, you have to decide what it's worth to you and be willing to walk away if the store you're dealing with is too high - to you. But, obviously - they're in 'the cat bird seat', because they still have that guitar and you don't. We here have all pondered and procrastinated - to find out when we reconciled ourselves to paying $300 more - that guitar was no longer available. Anywhere. And, not made anymore. G'Luck.

[BirdMan81]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the responses...it's helping me hash out my thoughts and get ready for the big purchase....like I said earlier I'm not trying to "use" any one store with never really intending to buy from them...actually I think I'm leaning towards buying the 2016 Hummingbird vintage from that small store that quoted me the best price....even if I never see the guitar or play it first...especially if guitar center can't even beat the Sweetwater price of $3680.00. Now of course if I drive down to Boston and play the guitar that they have there...and FALL IN LOVE WITH IT....it's a whole other ball game :)

 

Just to be clear (some may know this...some may not) but the 2016 hummingbird vintage is not a real "rare" guitar...depending on what you call "rare"....granted Guitar center doesn't really stock them at every single store ....but they are readily available to order right from Gibson. Getting to play one in person may be another story :)

[modoc_333]

As Keith said - a 'good deal' has to be a Win/Win for both sides. He touched on the concept of margins of 5% on all items would put a store out of business before too long. Mathematically - doesn't matter if the store is a standalone bricks and mortar or a Big Box. A margin that low is not enough to sustain a business, and one of the basic tenets of a business (a Real business - not someone selling home made Christmas ornaments out of their garage) is that it will sustain itself and grow. If you can't demonstrate 'profitability' over 5% - you won't get anyone other than yourself to invest in your business. And, after a few years - you'll find you don't want to either.

So - how many picks and strings does a store have to sell at 10% to offset making ZERO profit/margin on a $3K guitar? Tons. Look at the GC mailers and ads. They run sales on lower cost items (and one or 2 more expensive items they're trying to move) ALL for the purpose of getting foot traffic. They want you to come in to buy strings hoping you will save yourself a couple of bucks, and will fall in love with the $6K Martin in the hermetically sealed display case right inside the front door. Big Box, Little Box - they can't sell you (us) guitars at a loss hoping they'll make it up on picks and string and straps and things.

High end guitars are a 'specialty item', not a 'commodity'. ($100 guitars made in China are a 'commodity') High End makers have a strategy of making as many different models and varieties of models as they can - so we are more likely to fall in love with one that isn't easily found and easily negotiated for. Yes, they have to offer 'standards', but they (and their 'real' customers - the stores) prefer to focus on 'Limited Runs of 50" so it is harder to find a comparable one to dicker on price wise. Yes - you can find 3 or 4 nationwide if you are lucky. But you are extremely lucky if you can find just one within 100 miles so you can go play it.

So - at the end of the day, BIrdMan, you have to decide what it's worth to you and be willing to walk away if the store you're dealing with is too high - to you. But, obviously - they're in 'the cat bird seat', because they still have that guitar and you don't. We here have all pondered and procrastinated - to find out when we reconciled ourselves to paying $300 more - that guitar was no longer available. Anywhere. And, not made anymore. G'Luck.

 

 

 

+10000

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keith

[Pittgibson45]

As Keith said - a 'good deal' has to be a Win/Win for both sides. He touched on the concept of margins of 5% on all items would put a store out of business before too long. Mathematically - doesn't matter if the store is a standalone bricks and mortar or a Big Box. A margin that low is not enough to sustain a business, and one of the basic tenets of a business (a Real business - not someone selling home made Christmas ornaments out of their garage) is that it will sustain itself and grow. If you can't demonstrate 'profitability' over 5% - you won't get anyone other than yourself to invest in your business. And, after a few years - you'll find you don't want to either.

So - how many picks and strings does a store have to sell at 10% to offset making ZERO profit/margin on a $3K guitar? Tons. Look at the GC mailers and ads. They run sales on lower cost items (and one or 2 more expensive items they're trying to move) ALL for the purpose of getting foot traffic. They want you to come in to buy strings hoping you will save yourself a couple of bucks, and will fall in love with the $6K Martin in the hermetically sealed display case right inside the front door. Big Box, Little Box - they can't sell you (us) guitars at a loss hoping they'll make it up on picks and string and straps and things.

High end guitars are a 'specialty item', not a 'commodity'. ($100 guitars made in China are a 'commodity') High End makers have a strategy of making as many different models and varieties of models as they can - so we are more likely to fall in love with one that isn't easily found and easily negotiated for. Yes, they have to offer 'standards', but they (and their 'real' customers - the stores) prefer to focus on 'Limited Runs of 50" so it is harder to find a comparable one to dicker on price wise. Yes - you can find 3 or 4 nationwide if you are lucky. But you are extremely lucky if you can find just one within 100 miles so you can go play it.

So - at the end of the day, BIrdMan, you have to decide what it's worth to you and be willing to walk away if the store you're dealing with is too high - to you. But, obviously - they're in 'the cat bird seat', because they still have that guitar and you don't. We here have all pondered and procrastinated - to find out when we reconciled ourselves to paying $300 more - that guitar was no longer available. Anywhere. And, not made anymore. G'Luck.

This makes perfect sense to me. The problem is I don't know what the store paid for the guitar, so I have to play the game at multiple places to see what that price is where they still get their margin they need to stay in business. The margin the small shop needs to stay in business might be way lower than the other small shop across town or the big box place or the Internet seller. So getting price quotes from all those places isn't trying to take advantage of any of those places. The intent is to buy the guitar you want, and being able to play it first may have value and make it worth several hundred dollars more. For someone else they need it at the cheapest they can because other wise they won't afford it. For someone else they are looking to finance a guitar and making monthly payments is the way to go. I have at different times sort of been in all of those situations and have use the method that worked at that time for me to get the guitar that I wanted. The place is going to say no if they are at a point that it doesn't make sense for them to sell a guitar at.

[stein]

This makes perfect sense to me. The problem is I don't know what the store paid for the guitar, so I have to play the game at multiple places to see what that price is where they still get their margin they need to stay in business. The margin the small shop needs to stay in business might be way lower than the other small shop across town or the big box place or the Internet seller. So getting price quotes from all those places isn't trying to take advantage of any of those places. The intent is to buy the guitar you want, and being able to play it first may have value and make it worth several hundred dollars more. For someone else they need it at the cheapest they can because other wise they won't afford it. For someone else they are looking to finance a guitar and making monthly payments is the way to go. I have at different times sort of been in all of those situations and have use the method that worked at that time for me to get the guitar that I wanted. The place is going to say no if they are at a point that it doesn't make sense for them to sell a guitar at.

All good points, except usually small shops need to sell at a higher margin.

[modoc_333]

And there is no way to figure out what a shop needs to get. And it varies all of the time. It depends on what has been recently ordered, what has recently sold, what bills are due, etc. Sure, there is an overall number for the year.... but on any given day, that number may spike or drop temporarily. Like I said.... weigh all factors of value and then decide if it's worth it to you. How much something is worth has nothing to do with how much the seller paid for it. If I buy a pre-war D45 for $20, you're still not getting it for $100. or even $100,000. Doesn't matter if I paid 20, 100, or 150,000.

 

Is the guitar/ deal worth it? That's the question.

 

 

 

 

Keith

[stein]

 

 

All stores pay the same price to Gibson for the guitars. Don't let the GCs of the world fool you. the one store will ship you a guitar for less... but that could be for many reasons. For starters, they don't have to support that sale. there is no service involved. no setup. no time spent with you. nothing. just shipping a box.

you will also find stores that will dump inventory just to be able to order enough from Gibson to keep the line... of course that can only be kept up for so long. there are some deeper problems with that strategy too, but we won't get into that.

 

 

Keith

 

 

If this is true it would be the biggest change in this business in a long time. But I don't think it is.

 

rct

It is very likely untrue. For the most part, it wouldn't be ethical business practice for Gibson to discuss with one dealer what another dealer pays. And also, it would be very, very stupid for a company or a dealer to let anyone else know if they were getting a substantial break. They wouldn't be getting that price for long, and if they were that stupid, wouldn't be in business long.

 

But the other points like overhead and business cost, those are ALL factors.

[stein]

Rather than abuse multi-quote, I am going to say what a number has already said.

 

To me, the FAIR price is generally what everyone else is selling a particular model for. Or maybe the "going price" is a better term.

 

What the dealer has into it, what the state of their business is in or that stuff, that don't entitle a guy to a discount if one dealer is better at getting guitars cheaper than another.

 

I interject here though, what I personally think a guitar is worth might be a whole different matter. Maybe I don't think 3800 is a fair price for something I think is worth 2000. Or 3. Or whatever. But my opinion isn't the same as what the going price is. I like to be aware of the difference.

 

Having said that, finding out what the going price is, the fair price, isn't all that easy sometimes. But when I do, I personally don't share discounts between dealers. THAT info is between me and the guy who made the offer. However, if it's more than the going price, I have no problem telling them. If I have an offer for less, I may tell them. But I don't say how much.

 

That works better for me. I think it's smart. If I want a low price or a low quote, I am WAY more likely to get it if the guy making the offer trust that it won't be shared.

[sbpark]

If I was spending that much on a guitar, I'd be more about actually finding one that sounds good over getting the best deal. Now, I want a good deal just like everyone else, but when ti comes down to it, it doesn't matter much if you got an amazing deal fi once the guitar arrives it doest sound good, and as we all know with Gibson acoustics, they vary a lot in sound within the same model. I shopped around when I was buying a J45, and ended up going to Wildwood Guitars out in Louisville, Colorado. I was fortunate enough to be living in Denver at the time, and actually got a great deal on a brand new J45 Standard, but would have still bought the guitar even if I didn't get a deal because the one I played there sounded better than another J45 Standard I played. For me, it was more about buying the best sounding guitar over buying the one I could get the best deal on.

 

If you don't have a lot of shops around to try them in person I cannot recommend Wildwood enough. I'd feel much better ordering sight unseen from them over one of the big online retailers. I witnessed it firsthand when I was there buying my J45. A customer on the phone would tell them what they were looking for and the staff would collectively play, compare and discuss what they liked best based on the customers criteria. Great place to buy a guitar from either in person or over the phone/internet.

 

Guitar Center isn't really giving the type of discounts or deals they used to a few years ago. They're still there to be had, but just stricter. I'd say you could probably get 10%-12% off on a new guitar pretty easily, but would have to wait for a coupon to get the 15%-20%, or have proof that another retailer gave you a better deal. They won't go on your word alone anymore. I'm not anti-Guitar Center either. I actually traded in a Fender Bassman RI LTD amp a while back and actually got more than what I was listing it for on Craigslist, then applied that trade in on a new Martin 000-15M and got 15% off of that since they were having a promotion where you got 15% off any new gear when you traded in used gear.

 

But man, I'll say it again, if I was going to spend the kind of coin on a Hummingbird, I'd concentrate more on getting one that sounds great over getting one at the best discount. In the long run you'll get over what you paid for it, but you'll always have to listen to how it sounds every day you play it.

[BirdMan81]

Ideally I would like to play several of the vintage models and then pick the best one....but right now there is only one in the NE....so it makes doing that hard.

[j45nick]

Ideally I would like to play several of the vintage models and then pick the best one....but right now there is only one in the NE....so it makes doing that hard.

 

Nice idea, but it only works when the guitars are set up the same, have the same strings, and are played at the same place, in quick succession. Aural memory is notoriously poor, and small differences in things like humidity and string age and type can be frustrating in making meaningful comparisons.

[sbpark]

Ideally I would like to play several of the vintage models and then pick the best one....but right now there is only one in the NE....so it makes doing that hard.

 

More reason you probably won't get a deal. If it's the only one for miles and miles around, they'll hang onto it until someone wants it bad enough. If they had several or they were all over the local shops you'd have a better chance at scoring a deal.