Need advices

[awel]

Hi all,

 

Following my meeting with the record company yesterday, they proposed us the following:

 

The record cost is 14.000€ (15.500$), as co-producer they participate at 50% so that means 7.000€ (7.763,81 $) to pay for the band, this include the studio, 20 days, the mix and the master, the pressed CDs, Itunes, Deezer, Spotify, + the promotion, delivery to several national radios and garantee to be within their playlist.

 

the whole process will take around 8 months

 

I am a bit confused and need some advices, I don't want to be abused

['Scales]

I replied in your other thread - hope you get some great advice from members.

[awel]

I replied in your other thread - hope you get some great advice from members.

Congrats on getting their interest Al, and for having the good sense to ask questions before leaping.

 

The obvious first thing to me would be to satisfy yourself you are not simply paying to be recorded (the additional stuff probably isn't worth much in $ terms) beyond what you should be paying. What I don't see here is what's in it for them - if they are putting in half the cost - why? They are a business, so what do they get in return for their money? The answer to that, plus what is their relationship to the studio, should give you a steer on whether they are in fact really paying anything or if you are actually paying the full cost including their profit.

 

Then I guess it's a matter of what do you want - if it's a momento of your time as a band, can you get that far cheaper? - or will this maybe get you into good paying gigs and offer you the opportunity to get your money back that way (given no one pays for music these days)?

 

Then you might be in a great position to make a decision.

 

For what it's worth (and others will have direct experience I'm sure) one of my very best friends made a 10 track album with his 3 piece rock band - very good, dedicated producer and engineer - on a local arts council grant of around $3.5k US equivalent in 2014. They were able to lay bass, drums and rhythm in a couple of days then lots of time on vocal multi tracking, guitar multi tracking, and the mix and master. Worth your while to maybe get a couple of quotes from studios - they will have a good idea of costs as they do this all the time.

 

All the very best - hope you have fun whatever you decide to do!

 

Thank you.

About what they will win, they will get 40% of the record sales, we will get 60% (20% as band, 40% as co-producer)

 

To be honest with you, I am quite sure they will not invest 7.000€, I mean they're band members of a pro Belgium band that are active since the 70's, so perhaps the studio belong to them :)

 

But of course temptation is there, it will be our first 'pro' recording

[jdgm]

Who will own the copyright to the recording?

 

How can they guarantee getting on a radio station playlist? Or on Spotify?

 

Nobody works for charity or does anybody any favours.

 

If they are members of a band active since the 70s they probably do own the studio and have the contacts to carry out their part of the deal which will be a profit-making deal for them, whatever happens with you.

I think the 20 days includes everything - the mixing and the mastering. And you will be paying for that.

 

But what will you have left at the end of it all? Hard to say at the moment.

 

Look at this very carefully and be realistic about your band and what you can expect from it.

This should raise your profile with respect to live work, but I think you won't get your outlay on the recording back for a very long time.

However you would end up with a well recorded CD to promote your band.

 

Take care Awel.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

See pm.

[awel]

See pm.

Thanks, replied pm :)

[awel]

Who will own the copyright to the recording?

 

How can they guarantee getting on a radio station playlist? Or on Spotify?

 

Nobody works for charity or does anybody any favours.

 

If they are members of a band active since the 70s they probably do own the studio and have the contacts to carry out their part of the deal which will be a profit-making deal for them, whatever happens with you.

I think the 20 days includes everything - the mixing and the mastering. And you will be paying for that.

 

But what will you have left at the end of it all? Hard to say at the moment.

 

Look at this very carefully and be realistic about your band and what you can expect from it.

This should raise your profile with respect to live work, but I think you won't get your outlay on the recording back for a very long time.

However you would end up with a well recorded CD to promote your band.

 

Take care Awel.

 

This is what scares me the most, ok I can use crowdfunding site to help me a bit but honestly, I am 41 and don't think I deserve to have a pro record, I am afraid to start to believe that I could earn my life with music and then be disappointed

 

Don't know what to do really

[jaygl]

I'm not a lawyer, but I too signed a record deal back in the day(late 90's) and would say you should first seek out a reputable entertainment lawyer if you haven't already. The recoupment part of the deal is important as is the percentage that you the artist gets paid. Your songs should be registered with your music rights society (SOCAN here in Canada). Just don't let the lable get away with making you feel like they are doing you some big favor....you after all are the talent! If your lawyer says all is in order, sign the deal and enjoy the ride!

[LPS1976]

i'll agree with jaygl: GET AN ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NEVER go into an agreement like this without an attorney (you find the attorney - not the record company). you need someone working for your best interest.

[Cougar]

Hi all,

 

Following my meeting with the record company yesterday, they proposed us the following:

 

The record cost is 14.000€ (15.500$), as co-producer they participate at 50% so that means 7.000€ (7.763,81 $) to pay for the band, this include the studio, 20 days, the mix and the master, the pressed CDs, Itunes, Deezer, Spotify, + the promotion, delivery to several national radios and garantee to be within their playlist.

 

the whole process will take around 8 months

 

I am a bit confused and need some advices, I don't want to be abused

 

I really know little about the music biz. An entertainment lawyer is probably a good idea, but s/he's likely to want $1,000-2,000 for that expertise, which is not only about checking the reasonableness and fine print of the contract, but also tough negotiating skills. Seems like they're taking none of the risk, and you guys would be taking all the risk. (Is 20 days in their studio really worth $14K?) They're given you their offer. You might try giving them a counteroffer. Try moving the numbers around. They want 7 grand up front? A negotiator might try: What about 5 grand, half now, half to be taken from a part of your proceeds over some length of time. They should have some skin in the game. I should think their "promotion" is a major factor and should really be nailed down as to exactly what that means.

 

Like I said, I really don't know - just rambling. Hopefully some other guys here have their own experiences and can fill you in. Best of luck!

[awel]

in the contract

it is written

2500€ at the signature

2000€ 4 month later at the latest

2500€ when the give the CDs

[capmaster]

Check their website, the artists they "co-produced" and their releases, and their success. Discern well between facts and marketing blurbs. Listen closely to the results and research their impact.

 

Be very careful! Refusing the offer could be the very way to go. A lawyer will cost if you subscribe or not. Perhaps you have a pal who is lawyer and can tell you for free about chances and risks at a glance.

 

Again: Take care! It may leave you in debt and kill your love for music forever or at least for a long period. I witnessed it all far too often.

 

As member of a sextet in 1982 and 1983 I have been signatory of a record contract myself. The production of four songs for two vinyl singles costed the company called Mambo Musik a six-figured number of DEM. Inflation-adjusted it would be a quite high six-figured number of EUR today. Producer and co-producer were then and in retrospective still are among the top-ten in impact and record sales in Germany. Our record company has been WEA. We had to pay for nothing; they of course didn't compensate our loss of earnings, but on the other hand even payed our fares to the state-of-the-art 24-track studio and back.

 

Our recording took place at one of the then top-ten addresses in Germany. Studer recorders, Harrison mixing desk with automation, several dozens 19" units of FX and signal processors, Neumann mics, 3000 watts Crown amps and JBL cabinets for monitoring as well as the dreaded Auratones, and all of it in a first-class venue also allowing for recording big orchestras and choirs. Mastering, record sleeve photography and artwork, release, marketing and distribution, all included. Nationwide radio and TV appearances followed. Again, we were only responsible for our times off from work.

 

All in all, including all of our gigs we never were able to make a living of it but also didn't have to pay the six-figured debt of the company. Their boss finally told us they paid it from their petty cash. Anyway, it meant the end of the band, and for half of us the end of making music until now.

 

All of us met again for the first and last time after then in late 2011 for the 50th birthday of a former bandmate. The second time for us survivors has been the funeral of a former and to me until his death from cancer current bandmate last November.

 

By the way, our keyboard player had the contract checked then by a lawyer friend for free before we signed. In our case the costs for a legal examination would probably have eaten up all we ever earned out of it.

 

Again: Check the company's website, their releases, and their success. One can't be careful enough. Perhaps you may contact previous customers of the company and ask them about their experiences.

[rct]

Get a Lawyer, do not sign without someone competent in contract law in your country reading the paperwork.

Pay particular attention to two things:

Publishing rights. That is, who gets to own and determine what happens with your music in the future, my band covering you for instance.

Performance rights. Lots of times people sign away performance rights and are in the middle of a tour, have a fight with the company, and can't play their own songs and have to stop the tour.

Ownership of the masters is important, you guys should own them.

 

I'm not clear on your indebtedness to them after the record is done. Studio money and promotion and stuff is to be paid back out of sales and touring, be clear on that point.

 

Whatever copyright law is in your country, do it before you finish the record, preferably before you even get in the studio.

 

Watch carefully the writing credits, very carefully. You can have a "producer" add a keyboard line while you guys are drinking beer and enjoying your new found artistry and BAM you got another writing credit on your record for basically nothing. So establish composition rules immediately, that anything we do that constitutes "writing" is done here, while we are all here, and we all agree. A pretty famous guy around here made his money by getting a writing credit on everything from Green Day to Taylor Swift, so watch out, it's usually a money grab.

 

Good luck.

 

rct

[Rabs]

This is what scares me the most, ok I can use crowdfunding site to help me a bit but honestly, I am 41 and don't think I deserve to have a pro record, I am afraid to start to believe that I could earn my life with music and then be disappointed

 

Don't know what to do really

Hey man,

 

Well, I don't know much about the business side of things...

 

But I will say that im a similar age to you.. And what I wouldn't give for the chance to do something like that.. Life is short, id say go for it (obviously taking care to make sure you arnt being ripped off)..... Maybe not much will happen... Maybe a lot will happen and you will get a load of interest.. But I think the point is its one of those things you don't want to look back and say, man why didn't I do that when I had the chance...

 

What ever you decide, I wish you the best of luck man, and of course will want tickets when you come and tour over here ;)

[jdgm]

Maybe not much will happen... Maybe a lot will happen and you will get a load of interest.. But I think the point is its one of those things you don't want to look back and say, man why didn't I do that when I had the chance...

 

Absolutely right. I back this statement 100%.

 

But knowing that still does not make the choice any easier.

[capmaster]

Record contracts usually make producers almighty, and this can become critical for you in particular if consensus of co-producers turns into a nearly impossible task.

 

Some of these things happened to my band then. Not being co-producers, we didn't have any choice, we just had to obey. Within your band the situation is even more challenging since you will have the choice to obey or drop your recording at your own expense. As you will see further below, this can turn out pretty bad, depending on the contract.

 

Typical record contracts include paragraphs about performance, and these can be interpreted highly depending on taste and, let's say, political aspects. I was thinking for a while if I post that here and finally decided to do so.

 

Any refusal of performance is likely to cause damage claims, that much is clear. But sometimes it comes to the point when performances are considered inferior, and this may lead to bad disappointments of and jealousy between band members.

 

In our case, for one song the producers made me replace parts played by our keyboarder and even add some more keyboards. They also replaced the drummer by a drum machine.

 

In another song they canceled the entire part of a guitarist bandmate while mine appeared on the record.

 

For recording a third song our saxophone player, not a bandmate but regular guest musician for three of our songs, was replaced by a hired session musician, the drummer was replaced by a drum machine, they made me sing all of the background vocals, and finally they also wanted to replace our lady lead singer with another one - I don't want to talk any more detailed about it. Fortunately she ended up on the record.

 

Nobody charged us for anything of that, but it heavily contributed to our split-up after the contract was fulfilled.

 

Just one song remained as it was originally. I also think it sounds best since it's the only one that is not overproduced in my opinion.

 

Consider what will happen to your band if such things may happen to you. For instance let's assume they want to replace the drummer, charge you for the session musician or for programming the computer, or want you to play also the bass for recording. Don't laugh - the keyboardist and the bassist of a world-renowned band produced by our then-producers didn't play a single note in the studio! The lead and - for recording - only background vocalist played all the keyboards, and the guitarist also played the bass. Either the live players agreed on that for decades. Not funny at least.

 

In your case it could mean you could drop the project as co-producers but would have to pay the full price. You also will have to take care that your don't give up any rights with the contract as Rct already mentioned. You would have lost the songs and perhaps even have to pay for scoring them and having them played by session musicians.

 

Unfortunately business and law are full of pitfalls. Don't say I hadn't warned you.

['Scales]

Absolutely right. I back this statement 100%.

 

 

Me too - what Rabs said. Please don't read my advice as anything more than due diligence - if you want to do it go for it, you only live once.

 

But I'd advise some real heart to heart band meetings first to make sure they all feel exactly the same. In the example of my mate's band I gave earlier - the singer quit 2 days before recording (it had been a 4 piece til then) under pressure from home, the bass player agreed to do it but advised he would quit immediately after - and did, and my friend who then had to do singing and guitar is still baring emotional/health scars from the exercise. It's intense for many people. If your drummer isn't perfect on time keeping (or can't work to a click track), if anyone gets red light fever, and if you aren't prepared for a producer to tell you when your song sucks and that you need to shorten/change/drop it (as any decent producer should) without accepting the criticism and listening, if your singer isn't prepared/capable to have to repeat/repeat/repeat with a multitude of vocal lines etc then these things you will benefit from being really clear about with one another up front before deciding to do it.

 

Then there's the cost - which is a fact of life - so be it, but can your guys afford it? - I know if my current band had that offer I'd have to pay for all of it - the others just do not have access to cash and live more pay to pay - no problem, that's just how it is, but its a conversation that needs to be had and completely agreed up front...or it will potentially fester. I think its worth at least getting a few free quotes from studios so you can be sure the cost is appropriate.

 

If you are all happy and the deal looks good - then all the very best of luck with it - Rock n Roll!!

[JayinLA]

When all is said and done, who owns the Master?

[stein]

Lots of advice here. I didn't know there were so many here on the forums playing in Europe.

 

My favorite so far, is the advice about SHOPPING studios. Price and product. That's good advice.

 

The other, kinda between the lines, is Capmaster's post. I think it's VERY wise to asses what you really want, as far as a "career". Others have said a few things about it too. Living the dream isn't all it's cracked up to be for everyone. We could do a whole topic on that, but it's kinda away from what's at hand here. Except to say, an honest assessment of what you are doing or want to do counts.

 

But here is my 2 cents: you want to get CONNECTED. That doesn't mean you get a free ride just because you know someone or they like you. But rather, being acquainted with people or people who know people and those that know YOU is a way to get info, advice, and a way do get things done, so to speak. Who has recorded? where do they record? Who knows what they are playing on the radio? Who knows what they WANT to play? What venues are looking for who or what music? Who is looking for a guitarist/keys/etc. Trying to paint a picture, here.

 

In other words, there are SO many people that would want the guy on the radio, or to be "discovered", those looking get slammed. But if you WERE a little more "connected", you would already know someone who knows the guy who gave you the card and the offer, and have a pretty good idea if you are going to get airplay, because you know the same people that those on the radio being played now do. See the difference?

 

Anyway, said THAT to say that shopping studios, IS a way to help getting connected. So is the guy who made you the offer. I wouldn't assume it's a yes or no deal as far as staying connected to him or not.

 

Last little bit of encouraging ideology BS: There are a lot of snakes in the biz, but the most successful ones got there by being honest.

[awel]

Thank you all.

 

Yesterday, we had a talk with the band about this, and we all agreed that even if temptation is high, we don't want to bypass steps, the band has only 1 years old, and we will go for an 5 titles EP, auto-produced, we will try to find a decent studio with a decent engineer.

This EP and I am thinking to find a booking agency will helps to get more important performances.

 

As 'non-professional' musician, I don't think that investing so much money after 1 year of band existence is a good idea.

 

I really think that if we keeps on growing from a quality point of view, we will get some other propositions and if not ... I will still enjoy playing and singing and keep doing this for the rest of my life.

 

Like said in a Megadeth song: 'the more seriously I took things, the harder the rules became'

(funny to use Megadeth lyrics in the context of my blues rock band, traces of my past 'metal' life )

[Cougar]

I really think that if we keeps on growing from a quality point of view, we will get some other propositions and if not ... I will still enjoy playing and singing and keep doing this for the rest of my life.

 

I'm thinking that's a good decision and a great attitude. The amount of money this company wants you to pay makes me wonder if their "offer" is something similar to the vanity press, where an author can't find a publisher who will publish his book, so he pays to have it published himself.

 

As wiki notes, "In the traditional publishing model, the publisher assumes the risk of publication and production costs, selects the works to be published, edits the author's text, and provides for marketing and distribution, provides the ISBN, and satisfies whatever legal deposit and copyright registration formalities are required. Such a publisher normally pays the author a fee, called an advance, for the right to publish the author's work; and further payments, called royalties, based on the sales of the work..."

[LPS1976]

Thank you all.

 

Yesterday, we had a talk with the band about this, and we all agreed that even if temptation is high, we don't want to bypass steps, the band has only 1 years old, and we will go for an 5 titles EP, auto-produced, we will try to find a decent studio with a decent engineer.

This EP and I am thinking to find a booking agency will helps to get more important performances.

 

As 'non-professional' musician, I don't think that investing so much money after 1 year of band existence is a good idea.

 

I really think that if we keeps on growing from a quality point of view, we will get some other propositions and if not ... I will still enjoy playing and singing and keep doing this for the rest of my life.

 

Like said in a Megadeth song: 'the more seriously I took things, the harder the rules became'

(funny to use Megadeth lyrics in the context of my blues rock band, traces of my past 'metal' life )

 

that sounds like a better route:) finding a good engineer is probably more important than any of it. honestly, in this day and age all a record company is good for is promotion of your product. you can hire a publicist to do that for you. if your plan is to play live more and get better gigs off of your EP then you don't need to spend the amount of money you were quoted. for a five song ep; you should be able to get it done for a lot less. take your time and shop around. good luck and let us know how it turns out!

[Guest Farnsbarns]

I had that chat as promised (as well as a chat with a seasoned (very seasoned) manager I used to do emarketting for) and the upshot was that you would need to check who owned the masters. Apart from that it was simply a case of not being an unuasual offer and you have to judge them by their past performance, being careful not to only research any successes they shout about but also actively finding out about failures. The figures seem fair, the studio time cheap (might tell you something about the quality of equipment and engineers at well under €100 per day).

 

You need to be aware that your.local mechanical and performance collection societies would charge a band.like yours, with no publishing deal a 20% rate.

 

Seems you've made a decision which you're comfortable with so unless you would.like ke to I wont take that any further.

 

FWIW, i think you've made a wise decision myself. You dont want to take the fun out of it.

[awel]

I had that chat as promised (as well as a chat with a seasoned (very seasoned) manager I used to do emarketting for) and the upshot was that you would need to check who owned the masters. Apart from that it was simply a case of not being an unuasual offer and you have to judge them by their past performance, being careful not to only research any successes they shout about but also actively finding out about failures. The figures seem fair, the studio time cheap (might tell you something about the quality of equipment and engineers at well under €100 per day).

 

You need to be aware that your.local mechanical and performance collection societies would charge a band.like yours, with no publishing deal a 20% rate.

 

Seems you've made a decision which you're comfortable with so unless you would.like ke to I wont take that any further.

 

FWIW, i think you've made a wise decision myself. You dont want to take the fun out of it.

 

Thanks Farnsbarns, the question about the master is not very clear, in the contract, it is written than the the Producer (them) and Co-producer (the band) owns the recording and than the recordings and all the rights that goes with it are splited like that:

Producer 50%

Co-Producer 50%

 

I found this not honest because the way I read it, means that the even the author/compositor rights will be 50/50 as well even if the songs are already registered under my name

[jdgm]

Producer 50%

Co-Producer 50%

I found this not honest because the way I read it, means that the even the author/compositor rights will be 50/50 as well even if the songs are already registered under my name

 

Yes that is what I thought might be the case.

 

Awel: I too am making my way in a blues band (see youtube links in my sig) and we are slowly getting better. We are OLD, man. We will only get known when we can regularly pull an audience to our gigs.

It is a catch22 as you can't get one without the other and vice versa. I think it will take us another year at least to even get that far.

 

As for demos; our singer is a highly-rated video editor who worked for years in TV and I ran a home/project studio for 7 years in the 80s and 90s.

We made one demo using GarageBand on an Apple and recently got an email from a San Francisco radio station saying they were playing it. The internet changes everything.

I do not think you need to spend an awful lot of money. The last onstage video I saw of you ("Walkin' By Myself") was an excellent showcase with good enough sound.

Our singer worries about sound on the videos (it's complicated to get good) but IMO most internet watchers don't mind as long as it's steady, reasonably audible and in sync.