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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36546726

 

Led Zeppelin's guitarist Jimmy Page has denied stealing the riff to Stairway to Heaven, as he took the stand at a copyright trial in the US.

 

The rock band are accused of lifting the opening guitar line from Taurus, a 1967 track by the band Spirit.

 

But Page testified that he had never heard the song until people started posting comparisons online a few years ago.

 

"I knew I had never heard that before," he said. "It was totally alien to me."

 

He added: "When it started, I was confused by the comparison… [i thought] 'What's this got to do with Stairway?'"

 

Page admitted to owning several Spirit albums, but only remembered buying two of them, neither of which contained Taurus.

 

Under questioning, he conceded that he did own a copy of the band's self-titled debut, on which the track appears, but could not recall how it came to be part of his collection - which amounts to 4,329 albums and 5,882 CDs.

 

His testimony was delivered to a room packed full of journalists, fans and curious onlookers. The musician arrived carrying a guitar case, raising the prospect that he might play the riff in question, but that did not happen.

 

Page's testimony lasted two hours. He is expected to take the stand again when the trial resumes on Thursday

 

Led Zeppelin are being sued by the estate of Spirit's late guitarist, Randy Wolfe (who performed under the name Randy California).

 

Michael Skidmore, who represents the estate, claims Page or singer Robert Plant heard Taurus during the late 1960s and copied it for Stairway To Heaven.

 

During Wednesday's hearing, Skidmore's lawyer Francis Malofiy referred to Page as a "session musician" and "the alleged composer" of Stairway, and said the band had become famous by making other people's music their own.

 

However, Malofiy was admonished by several times by US District Judge R Gary Klausner for asking irrelevant questions and labouring his point.

 

He first drew the judge's ire with a prolonged series of questions about Led Zeppelin's interviews in the 1960s and 70s, many of which Page did not recall.

 

As Malofiy continued to ask Page whether he had ever talked about being a fan of Spirit, Judge Klausner interrupted, saying: "How many times can we beat a dead horse?"

 

Led Zeppelin are said to have made more than $562m (£334m) from Stairway To Heaven in the last 45 years

 

Overall, 50 objections were sustained against the prosecution. At one point during Malofiy's questioning, Judge Klausner yelled out "sustained!" before the defence even had time to raise their objection.

 

A lot of the day's testimony centred around Led Zeppelin's live debut in America, in December 1969, when they shared the bill with Spirit.

 

According to Page, his band played first and had to leave immediately for Seattle, making it impossible for the band to have seen Spirit's performance.

 

He also claimed he wasn't even aware of Spirit's presence on the bill. "I didn't think I was opening for Spirit; I thought I was opening for Vanilla Fudge,"

 

Earlier, Wolfe's former bandmate Mark Andes told the court that Spirit played Taurus at the concert; adding that the band had appeared at several festivals with Led Zeppelin over the years.

 

The musician also told the court that members of Spirit played snooker with Robert Plant after a gig in Birmingham in 1970.

 

However, under cross examination by Led Zeppelin's lawyer, he acknowledged he could not recall a particular show at which Spirit definitely played Taurus and Zeppelin were watching.

 

Plant and bassist John Paul Jones are expected to testify at the trial, although Jones has been dismissed as a defendant in the case.

 

Led Zeppelin has settled several similar copyright disputes over songs such as Whole Lotta Love and Dazed and Confused, but the judge has barred Wolfe's laywer from introducing evidence from those cases.

 

According to Bloomberg Businessweek, Stairway To Heaven had earned $562m (£334m) as of 2008. The plaintiff is reportedly seeking royalties and other compensation of around $40m (£28m).

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Here I am, a legendary guitarist from in a legendary band, who wrote a song that became an anthem that pretty much represented the genre of rock music that I also created… and who inspiring countless copycats.

 

... and here I am... some guy in a band—albeit a good band—that wrote a song that nobody recognizes.

 

Case closed! Shut up and accept your lot in life!

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I am being quite objective when I say that only the one descending riff even remotely resembles the principle intro riff to Stairway To Heaven.

The rest of the song Taurus, as good as it is on its own merits, bears no resemblance whatsoever.

 

We all accidentally borrow bits and scraps of of things we hear, all our lives.

They show up in the jokes we tell, the stories we write, and the songs we craft.

Usually without any conscious awareness of it.

It's the way of things.

 

I'm not hearing enough to convince me that Jimmy Page and Led Zeppelin consciously ripped-off Spirit on this one.

I'm just not.

[unsure]

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Here I am, a legendary guitarist from in a legendary band, who wrote a song that became an anthem that pretty much represented the genre of rock music that I also created… and who inspiring countless copycats.

 

... and here I am... some guy in a band—albeit a good band—that wrote a song that nobody recognizes.

 

Case closed! Shut up and accept your lot in life!

 

 

That's kinda how I feel about the whole Zep rip off thing. If the originals were so great why didn't they take?

Because Zep kicks a$$ and made them all great. I really don't care what they stole. It's not my problem to pursue.

Those first few albums from I to Physical Graffiti were bar setters.

I never really got into Presence though. Or much after that. Not sure why.

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This must be quite stressful and a big irritation for the Zeps

 

It is important to defend one's corner against spurious lawsuits

 

Otherwise a precedent could open the floodgates ..... :blink:

 

There must be 000's of peevish wannabe's on the make around the world

 

And aggressive lawyers with big potential prize-money eager to take on the case

 

V

 

:-({|=

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It's well established that zep pinched a vast amount of material.

 

 

 

This one? Well the riff is the same. Crucially it has the same timing. However, its probably a subconscious copy. I really dont think this one should have gone to court.

 

One thing surprises me about the case. It should be obvious that Page MUST have heard Taurus, because they famously covered 'Fresh Garbage', which is from the very same album!

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It is important to defend one's corner against spurious lawsuits

 

I do agree with you, but this one is far from spurious, Randy was claiming this for a very long time and getting hammered by big money record companies and a very big money band at every turn.

 

As for "consciously copying", copyright laws don't necessarily cover that. There isn't really a way to prove or disprove your consciousness at the time you wrote a song. The bottom line, and only bottom line, is who copyrighted what first, and is the work copyrighted second readily confused over a certain amount of time with the first. It also can hinge on the identification of the song, like two identical riffs and one makes one song immediately identifiable.

 

Copyright infringement has always existed and always will, there are no floodgates to open. You either believe you are infringed enough to hire lawyers that also believe you are infringed enough to proceed, or you don't. Or can't.

 

I would bet a dollar that those with the most dollars will prevail.

 

rct

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Yes...good points made...the saga is longer running than I initially thought

 

Perhaps I'm listening to the wrong version but I don't hear all the contrary motion voice lead which makes the Stairway so catchy

 

Yes there are noticeable similarities

 

Chromatic descending bass lines with varying chord harmony are well used devices in 000's of songs... [thumbup]

 

:-({|=

 

V

 

:-({|=

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While The song Taurus somewhat shares the decending root note progression from its{Stairway} main "hookline" { Amin to G,,Gflt,ect,,the upper notes traveling upward on High E string in Stairway},,I dont hear those in Taurus,,and the progressions after that "Hookline" are quite different than Stairway in both structure,keys played,tempo. I guess one could "hear" a similar sounding progression I guess to Taurus,,granted that. Im on the fence as far as a direct "ripoff" could be claimed. Its a tough call. I do know one thing,,Both are fantastic ballads.

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"Rock & Roll" is merely a compilation of Country, Folk, Blues, and (sometimes) Jazz!

They all "borrow/steal" from each other...yes, even exact riffs. Just listen to any Blues

song, or Country song, especially. Jazz gets away with it, more often, because it's

played/used in such "odd" phrasings, that it's sometimes not readily recognizable,

as such. Led Zeppelin "stole" from everyone, equally. Consciously, or otherwise!

And, people since, have "stolen" from them, consciously, or otherwise. So...???

 

It's all this "Sue me, Sue you," manufactured crap. But, the lawyers get rich,

win or lose!

 

CB

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It's in the news a lot here in LA. He made the court room laugh today when asked to read the first line in a document aloud for the court to hear by plaintiff's attorney and Jimmy said, "Confidential."

Forgive the paraphrase in quotes! [unsure]

 

According to the news here, plaintiff's attorney is pissing off the judge and is constantly being objected to which the judge sustains. The case will likely be unsuccessful. Also they have to prove that the sheet music was ripped off since that was what was copywritten. They aren't allowed to play the recording (according to what I read today). Interesting how these things work.

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I used to feel the same. But Presence has come around for me. Achilles Last Stand, Nobody's Fault But Mine, Tea For One. One thing is for sure you could tell that was gonna be that last decent studio record they would ever make.

Some of my favs as well,,
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Some of my favs as well,,

 

Mine, as well. "Presence" is an under-rated treasure.

 

As for the "plagiarism" thing surrounding "Taurus" and "Stairway".... I finally listened to a comparison. My verdict: "Pfffffft!".

 

Zep "ripped off" Spirit even less than The Moody Blues ripped off The Byrds... who then were ripped off by The Guess Who....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Uh8933Jvs

 

http://youtu.be/vKITpZRDEW4?t=17s

 

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I used to feel the same. But Presence has come around for me. Achilles Last Stand, Nobody's Fault But Mine, Tea For One. One thing is for sure you could tell that was gonna be that last decent studio record they would ever make.

 

I like it too, but it's a frustrating album. IMO...

Archilles, Tea for One and Nobody's Fault are indeed excellent.

Then again Candy Store, Royal Orleans, and Hots On are complete gash...and 3 such out of 7 songs is going to be a problem.

 

And most frustratingly, For Your Life could have been so epic if only it had been done like this...

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7cIRv5MpUQM

 

 

If only.

 

Gotta also say, there's some epic drumming on that album from a guy who's clock was counting down rapidly by then.

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I like it too, but it's a frustrating album. IMO...

Archilles, Tea for One and Nobody's Fault are indeed excellent.

Then again Candy Store, Royal Orleans, and Hots On are complete gash...and 3 such out of 7 songs is going to be a problem.

 

And most frustratingly, For Your Life could have been so epic if only it had been done like this...

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7cIRv5MpUQM

 

 

If only.

 

Gotta also say, there's some epic drumming on that album from a guy who's clock was counting down rapidly by then.

 

I think the album version is pretty epic. But this live version is pretty heavy.

 

Achilles Last Stand, For Your Life, Hots On For Nowhere (which sports one of my favorite Page solos), Nobody's Fault But Mine, Royal Orleans—all awesome. The two tracks I can live without are Candy Store Rock, and Tea For One—the latter being a cheap remake of "Since I've Been Loving You", I've always felt.

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I think the album version is pretty epic. But this live version is pretty heavy.

 

Achilles Last Stand, For Your Life, Hots On For Nowhere (which sports one of my favorite Page solos), Nobody's Fault But Mine, Royal Orleans—all awesome. The two tracks I can live without are Candy Store Rock, and Tea For One—the latter being a cheap remake of "Since I've Been Loving You", I've always felt.

 

I always loved Candy Store Rock. It was like a dark, heavier version of some of Elvis' style in a way, especially the way Plant sang it. Hot's on for Nowhere and Royal Orleans were weak I felt, but still enjoyable.

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I always loved Candy Store Rock. It was like a dark, heavier version of some of Elvis' style in a way, especially the way Plant sang it. Hot's on for Nowhere and Royal Orleans were weak I felt, but still enjoyable.

 

"Candy Store Rock" is definitely an interesting track. It just never grabbed me the way 95% of Led Zeppelin songs do.

 

"Hots On For Nowhere" and "Royal Orleans" are catchy as all get out. On the latter, I always loved that frantic drum part Bonzo played under Page's guitar riff. It sounds totally disconnected from the music, but still worked.

 

Btw... "Royal Orleans" has always been a song who's lyrics have always evaded me. But I just read them, and they're pretty funny. I know the song is about the hotel in the French Quarter, but didn't know it was—even more specifically—about someone in their entourage picking up a drag queen.

 

New Orleans queens, Sure know how to schmooze it

Maybe for some that seems alright

When I step out, strut down with my sugar

She'd best not talk like Barry White!

 

[laugh]

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Has the Jake Holmes thing with "Dazed And Confused" been settled for good yet BTW?

 

Then there's "Immigrant Song"....obviously "Bali Hai", but probably not enough to pay out on.

 

And a possible Python sketch perhaps?

 

"You nicked this riff and flogged it to death didn't you!"

 

"Nah nah guv it just fell under me hands honest it did...it's not dead it's just resting....."

 

[smile]

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Then there's "Immigrant Song"....obviously "Bali Hai", but probably not enough to pay out on.

 

[smile]

 

Hahaha! I've never heard "Bali Hai" until just now....

 

That one's a bit of a stretch. I mean, if you really wanted to, you could find similarities in like every song. Here's one that I've always heard—as clear as day—yet nobody ever said a single thing about it:

 

Begin at 00:40:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDKuGnhxcpA

 

Begin at 00:16:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m0mPdZhqgY

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Hahaha! I've never heard "Bali Hai" until just now....

 

That one's a bit of a stretch. I mean, if you really wanted to, you could find similarities in like every song. Here's one that I've always heard—as clear as day—yet nobody ever said a single thing about it:

 

 

Did you see this vid? I posted it in another thread... Gives side by side examples of the songs that have either won their claim or are trying to claim

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Did you see this vid? I posted it in another thread... Gives side by side examples of the songs that have either won their claim or are trying to claim

 

Yeah, I've seen this one before. There's no doubting that Zep "borrowed" heavily from their heroes. The way I look at it is this: Had it not been for Zeppelin, MANY music lovers would not have even heard of the artists they admired.

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