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onewilyfool

Player grade vintage"…finally explained…..

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Player grade vintage: "A prized vintage instrument made more affordable by modification, repair, or years of usage." (According to Reverb.com)

 

Marketing or is this actually something?….lol

 

They go on to say on their website:

 

Player Grade Vintage Guitars

Not every vintage guitar can be a pristine, all-original example destined for a collector's vault. Dings, scratches, replaced parts and refinished bodies all lower the price on these vintage guitars and basses, making them fantastic deals for musicians who want a classic instrument to play.

 

I guess this is true for vintage guitars, but try to sell a two year old Martin on Craig's list that has even a single (gasp) scratch on it……lol….be prepared to be bent over on a barrel…….

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I'm with Jedzep. I do have pristine guitars but I'm almost scared to play them. My most recent is a 2013 OJ reissue which is an absolute monster but I'm afraid to play it.

 

Wily if a vintage guitar hasn't been played much its probably a POS wouldn't ya think? Back then I'm sure not a lot of people had the money Latin around to have a few guitars but who knows.

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The only vintage guitars I've been able to afford in my life, are considered "Players". My original Gibson, 1957 and my original Martin, 1962 were brand new at the time, now considered "vintage". I'm quite a bit older than these two.

I'm a player and not a collector, and have several "player grade" Gibson and Martin flat tops. I enjoy them and do not have any regret in buying them at a price I could afford. Just because it's considered a "player",doesn't mean it will not sound as good or better than a pristine collectors piece. I'm speaking only of "true Vintage guitars".

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As usual, I object to the use of the word "vintage" above, they are simply "players". Someone is just trying to justify using the word "vintage" to describe used, old, and modified guitars.

 

"Player Grade Vintage" is kind of like "All Original Except..."

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I've been soooo lucky in the buying of vintage guitars...but I may very well be done. It can be stressful, and it helped greatly that I had very affordable luthier services. I just bought my very first new guitar, a Guild M20, which is a great little guitar, but I feel my vintage array satisfies all my playing styles and abilities. A little stopping power never hurts. For a while.

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Does Reverb make a distinction between Player grade and Beater grade?

 

Their description is not really surprising. What is surprising, however, is how those folk who might get nervous about putting that first major scratch or ding on their pristine yearling might likely find a Player grade guitar valued at two or three times as much to be actually less stressful to play in hazardous duty situations. I find this to be the case, personally.

 

'Don't know if it would be considered a Player grade, but this '43/'44 Hog banner is willing in most heavy duty applications:

 

IMG_0214_zpsbnxmp3vq.jpg

 

 

Beater grade (?) ~'45 Maple J-45 with Nick Lucas-style inlay:

 

mape_zpsfca759e6.jpg

 

 

 

Agree, Larry. I try not to use the "V" word.

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As usual, I object to the use of the word "vintage" above, they are simply "players". Someone is just trying to justify using the word "vintage" to describe used, old, and modified guitars.

 

"Player Grade Vintage" is kind of like "All Original Except..."

 

George Gruhn uses the word vintage utility grade instrument when a collectible vintage guitar has been modified. He always stresses that they may very well still be quite good instruments to play, but because of the modifications designating them as vintage utility instruments they realistically are simply not sought after collectibles in the vintage collectible market. Keep in mind, the vintage collectible market is a separate thing from players playing guitars. It is a bonafide guitar collectors commodity market that can and does exist separate from utility instruments and even possibly players.

 

In other words there are commodity traders in vintage collectible guitars and collectibles and their prices, as well as which vintage guitars are considered collectibles and which are considered non-collectible but good utility instruments...is determined by what the vintage collectors determine is demand for them. In this collectible vintage guitar market, their is less demand for utility vintage instruments that are considered such because of their modifications.

 

One can dispute what they do all one wants, but that is not acknowledging the reality of the vintage guitar commodity market that exists based on supply and demand in the vintage guitar market.

 

Keeping in mind that since its demand driven it not always is rational or player driven...same as any collectible market. Like any commodities market, understanding it before participating in it, is important for financial investment (not guitar playing) purposes. But, if one wants to increase their instrument's future value in it, should they decide later to buy, sell, trade in it with their instrument...one should understand how it works (and always keep their instrument's original parts intact or if they have been removed, keep the part so a buyer can reinstall them and a seller can keep the instrument's value optimally higher).

 

If one never (now or later) participates in the vintage guitar collectors market, none of this matters, of course.

 

For a good comparison, think of the vintage Corvette or Mercedes collectible markets. Similarly, original equipment or original replacement equipment makes a vintage Corvette or Mercedes more collectible (and higher priced) than one that has been modified. Why? Because the vintage Corvette and Mercedes collectible marketplace determines that to be so. Does't mean the car is bad if someone an owner modified it. It might be better to drive. But, it is not worth as much as original equipment in the vintage car collectible marketplace. Same thang in the vintage guitar collectible marketplace. (The only exception to this that I know of in the vintage guitar collectible marketplace is the allowable replacement of Gibson's 60's plastic bridge which no collectors care about because of their inevitable breakage and breakagehistory. A replaced plastic bridge doesn't reduce a guitar's collectibility or value, provided it has decently been replaced by an acceptable wooden bridge.)

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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I probably didn't buy a guitar in 1987 because I didn't like it. I haven't changed my mind because it's old. "vintage" guitars are way over rated and usually bought by people that know nothing about guitars.

 

At least, electrics that is. You guys over here, I don't know. You guys don't buy anything that isn't like, made by Ren Fergison when he was 12.

 

rct

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Many of ya's seem to be falling into the either/or trap. As if it's combat TV with new Gibson buying battling Vintage Gibson buying...when the reality is that both new and vintage Gibson markets exist and, thankfully, are thriving. Both can and do exist and both have their own idiosyncrasies and one can be both a fan and/or buyer/player of new Gibsons as well as a fan and/or buyer/player of vintage Gibsons or an exclusive one of whichever they prefer. But, it's not a combat battle. It's all part of the cool world of Gibsons (something I have been part of as a guitar player for 54 years now.)

 

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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The only exception to this that I know of in the vintage guitar collectible marketplace is the allowable replacement of Gibson's 60's plastic bridge which no collectors care about because of their inevitable breakage and breakagehistory. A replaced plastic bridge doesn't reduce a guitar's collectibility or value, provided it has decently been replaced by an acceptable wooden bridge.)

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

First off, OWF, this is a really good thread. Thanks for posting it.

 

Second, Jazzman Einstein: Just last week I was lying around pondering, "What was Gibson thinking when they implemented the plastic bridge in the 1960s?" I mean, this was pre Norlin, wasn't it?

 

I googled the thought and found this great video that directly supports what you're saying (see, in particular, 1:40):

 

The embed code isn't working again so go here for video: >>>>>

<<<<< (Don't insert the arrows.)

[i wouldn't mind finding this guy and his luthier shop just down the street. (In particular see 6:00 and what he uses to cut the saddle slot!)]

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You guys don't buy anything that isn't like, made by Ren Fergison when he was 12.

 

rct

 

Now you're being silly. I have it on good authority that Ren didn't make his first guitar until he was 13 1/2. I have it and it is a cannon (not a canon) and blows all other guitars away!

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First off, OWF, this is a really good thread. Thanks for posting it.

 

Second, Jazzman Einstein: Just last week I was lying around pondering, "What was Gibson thinking when they implemented the plastic bridge in the 1960s?" I mean, this was pre Norlin, wasn't it?

 

I googled the thought and found this great video that directly supports what you're saying (see, in particular, 1:40):

 

The embed code isn't working again so go here for video: >>>>>

<<<<< (Don't insert the arrows.)

[i wouldn't mind finding this guy and his luthier shop just down the street. (In particular see 6:00 and what he uses to cut the saddle slot!)]

 

This is very interesting FA! Let's see if I got it to embed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgkcA9ikHFQ

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RCT possibly the most ridiculous comment I've ever seen on the Gibson forum. Smh

 

Some exaggeration for the sake of comedy. But for the most part I find the idea that a guitar is somehow valuable because it is "vintage" to be ridiculous. I remember most of them, they weren't worth it then, aren't worth it now for sure. I advise people that ask for my experience to consider what they can buy new for all the money they are considering putting out for something vintage, and then I tell them the facts about this particular guitar without editorializing. It's their money, they don't need anything but my experience and memory, so what they buy is fine with me.

 

If you like vintage guitars by all means buy as many as you want. If you discuss vintage guitars, be prepared to run into people that don't buy any of it.

 

rct

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Please excuse me but -

 

"Player grade vintage" [lol]

 

"Vintage utility grade" :-k

 

How about -

 

"Used"...?

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Please excuse me but -

 

"Player grade vintage" [lol]

 

"Vintage utility grade" :-k

 

How about -

 

"Used"...?

 

JDGM-you seem to be ignoring that there is a whole vintage guitar collector market place like any other collectible commodity that has standards, definitions, classifications, price guides, etc etc that it's participants have set. This is no different that civil war collectibles, automobile collectibles, sports collectibles, etc. To just label civil war memorabilia, auto, sports as just used stuff without acknowledging it has specific designations to it within its world of collectibles is as non-reality based as just calling all vintage guitars in the sphere of its collectible market place as just "used" is kind of a form of denial of what is and disrespectful to an entire industry. But, it's your choice to deny its existence. Many sell their used guitar to a vintage guitar collector at a dirt cheap price because it's just a used thing to the joy of many a vintage guitar collector. Would you be one of those one day when your fine Gibson ages? Or, will you suddenly then acknowledge its existence and legitimacy?

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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Some exaggeration for the sake of comedy. But for the most part I find the idea that a guitar is somehow valuable because it is "vintage" to be ridiculous. I remember most of them, they weren't worth it then, aren't worth it now for sure. I advise people that ask for my experience to consider what they can buy new for all the money they are considering putting out for something vintage, and then I tell them the facts about this particular guitar without editorializing. It's their money, they don't need anything but my experience and memory, so what they buy is fine with me.

 

If you like vintage guitars by all means buy as many as you want. If you discuss vintage guitars, be prepared to run into people that don't buy any of it.

 

rct

 

Are you saying tone woods do not get better with age? Or, that all the reissues and torefication(sp) are not meant to complete with the vintage guitar industry? Or, that your guitar will someday not enter the realm of the vintage guitar industry or increase in value because of it? Or, that there are benefits and drawbacks of both new and used and vintage instruments and clue them in on those so they can make an educated decision. Or, that the multiple markets co-exist and help both new and vintage marketplaces. Do you tell folks those things or just leave them out? Just curious...

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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Are you saying tone woods do not get better with age?

 

I'm saying all the great "tones" that all the "tone hounds", "tone masters", and "tone aficionados" crave were made on guitars that weren't vintage at all, that's what I'm saying. Nobody is making any better sounding records on those same guitars now that they are vintage. In fact, they are all in the hands and collector cases of people that don't even play. So I'm saying that "tone woods" may get better with age, I just don't see anybody capitalizing on it all that much.

 

Or, that all the reissues and torefication(sp) are not meant to complete with the vintage guitar industry?

 

I didn't say anything about those things, but if you must, we can. Which reissue? The first ones, or the ones they make every year afterwards, the ones that somehow seem to be more accurate than the one you paid 6000 for last year. This year you'll have to pay 7000. If you believe the claims of marketing it is your prerogative, just as it is mine to not believe it based on a long time playing the guitar.

 

Or, that your guitar will someday not enter the realm of the vintage guitar industry or increase in value because of it?

 

I have a couple that are vintage guitars now, that I'm the original owner and user of. Mine, alas, are just used guitars, they don't quite measure up to all the cachets used in marketing and sales. Like, you know, all the other used guitars in the world.

 

Or, that there are benefits and drawbacks of both new and used and vintage instruments and clue them in on those so they can make an educated decision.

 

Did you read what I wrote and grasp the concepts or did you just see the words of someone that doesn't agree with you?

 

Or, that the multiple markets co-exist and help both new and vintage marketplaces. Do you tell folks those things or just leave them out? Just curious...

 

Did you read what I wrote? I offer them my experience and memory, not my marketing and sales skills. And keep in mind I am looking at this from a mostly electric guitar player point of view. Any beliefs I have about the vintage acoustic market are derivative of my general experience as a guitar player, and my memory and experience with those acoustics back then. I'm never going to be an acoustic maven, but in the end, guitars are guitars, especially the three companies that make them here, the concepts are pretty much the same.

 

rct

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Perhaps, it's a good time to move on from this topic, eh? Not sure it will get anywhere...and, at the end of the day we are all friends and fellow Gibson owners😄.

 

We are! I wish I owned a Gibson acoustic but I just can't find one that I have to take home, and believe me, I try.

 

And I only poke at my peers and my equals, that's why I poke at them!

 

rct

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