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Lutz

Identification help needed

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Hello y'all!

 

 

Thank you for the quick registration, I really appreciatethe friendly and qualified posts I read.

 

I need help to identify this guitar. There is no serial nr.to be found anywhere, no paper sticker or anything at the inside.

 

 

It was bought used around 1975-77 in Germany. Roundshoulders, plus size body so I assume it's a Texan.

 

Narrow saddle of 1 9/16 inches (39mm), scale 25.59 inches(650mm)

 

Mahogany neck and body, spruce top. Kluson Deluxe tuners,the back of the neck is covered with varnish.

 

Rounded pickguard without the e-logo, a bridge that is adjustable at only one side.Pickup under the bridge with plug in the strap pin.

 

Parallelogram abalone inlays with dots at the side.

 

 

On the body there is the sign GMS and close to the neck a 0.Both are very clean under the varnish, so they probably have been there duringthe production and not put there later.

 

Can it be a prototype? Serial nr. zero?

 

 

Thank you already in advance, I'm looking forward to hearany hints or suggestions.

 

Greetings from frozen Germany

 

 

Lutz

 

P.S.: I have Trouble uploading the pics, I will add some in a second post

 

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Hello y'all!

 

 

Thank you for the quick registration, I really appreciatethe friendly and qualified posts I read.

 

I need help to identify this guitar. There is no serial nr.to be found anywhere, no paper sticker or anything at the inside.

 

 

It was bought used around 1975-77 in Germany. Roundshoulders, plus size body so I assume it's a Texan.

 

Narrow saddle of 1 9/16 inches (39mm), scale 25.59 inches(650mm)

 

Mahogany neck and body, spruce top. Kluson Deluxe tuners,the back of the neck is covered with varnish.

 

Rounded pickguard without the e-logo, a bridge that is adjustable at only one side.Pickup under the bridge with plug in the strap pin.

 

Parallelogram abalone inlays with dots at the side.

 

 

On the body there is the sign GMS and close to the neck a 0.Both are very clean under the varnish, so they probably have been there duringthe production and not put there later.

 

Can it be a prototype? Serial nr. zero?

 

 

Thank you already in advance, I'm looking forward to hearany hints or suggestions.

 

Greetings from frozen Germany

 

 

Lutz

 

P.S.: I have Trouble uploading the pics, I will add some in a second post

 

 

For the most part, manufacturers put model and/or serial numbers on the guitar in places other than a paper label...the paper labels are known to get "lost" now and then. The most common place to find the model and/or serial number is on the neck-block, a block of wood inside the body at the place where the neck joins the body of the guitar. Try shining a flashlight into the body of the guitar and look up towards the neck joint...there should be something there.

 

If not, we're going to need photographs. Most of us use an online photo-hosting website to store our photos...post the "IMG" code into a post on this thread and we'll be able to see the guitar; post other "codes" such as an HTML code or some other code and the chances aren't too good.

 

Cheers!

 

Dugly [cool]

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It is a Texan, but it looks to me like work has been done to it in the intervening years, possibly involving a complete refinish (meaning the original laquer was stripped off and a new coating applied). It has certainly been partially refinished.

 

First, you can see that the veneer has been sanded off the headstock, leaving traces of it around the logo and cloud inlay.

 

I doubt the dots on the fretboard came from the factory; I've never seen another Gibson or Epiphone with them. They appear to have been put in by a previous owner.

 

The pickguard is a replacement.

 

The bridge has been reglued, and possibly replaced/mislocated. That might be the original, flipped upside down (the belly should point to the top, not the bottom of the guitar). This might explain while there's only one adjusting screw on the saddle--the new placement of the bridge might not allow the alignment of both screws with the holes originally drilled for them in the guitar's top. The missing screw may also simply have been lost over time, especially if the relocation of the bridge rendered the height adjusting saddle mechanism inoperable. Either way, I would strongly recommend bringing this guitar to a tech familiar with the Gibson adjustable bridge for an evaluation so he/she can check that it's located correctly to provide proper intonation (at a minimum), and can assess if there's any underlying damage to the bridge plate or top caused by it's reversal.

 

Red 333

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Hey Red 333!

 

thank you very much for your detailed answer.

Yes, if I look at the bridge and the pics of the original Texan, you are absolutely right.

I only ask myself how the string holding holes have been changed? If you turn a previous mounted bridge that way with the belly facing away from the neck, the holes end up towards the neck. The saddle faces towards the bottom of the guitar, and the strings could not be hold down running over the saddle. Very mysterious.

The only answer I can imagine is the person got hold of an undrilled saddle, flipped it over and then drilled the holes. What do you think?

 

Looking at the headstock the black traces around the logo and cloud inlay show that some serious change of the whole appearance was intended, including a light coloured headstock and more tiny details like the new dots beneath the inlays. Maybe this person left his initials on the belly? Have you ever seen any letters on the belly of a Texan?

I read an article about another guitar company who let new production plants send them a couple of prototypes before starting a business, so I thought maybe this could be the reason for the letters GMS.

Do you have any clue what this guitar could be worth? - just an eyeballed estimation.

 

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge

Lutz

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Lutz, you're absolutely right about the orientation of the bridge pins being completely wrong if that were the original bridge and it were flipped over. Why didn't I think of that?! D'oh! So all the more unlikely that is the original bridge.

 

Just to qualify: there is no such thing as definite when it came to Kalamazoo-based Gibson/Epiphone--a lot of oddities and exceptions did leave the factory. So I guess there's a small, small possibility that's the original bridge, but it seems unlikely. Mostly.

 

Yes, I do think someone added his or her initials to the top. I doubt it came from Gibson that way. While they did used to customize guitars for buyers in many different ways like engraved pickguards, initials or names inlayed on the fretboard, etc., I've never seen anything quite like what your photos show. I suspect whoever crudely refinished the headstock, added the fretboard dots, changed the pick guard, and replaced the bridge did that.

 

I didn't mention it yesterday, but are there some funny lines or perhaps some splintering on the top on either side of the fretboard? It sort of looks it to me, but I can't really tell. It may be suggestive of a past neck reset.

 

Red 333

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Hi Red,

 

I checked the neck, luckily there are no signs that a reset was done. I mean, the rest of the changes that are obvious are enough...

You mentioned that a lot of odd individual items left the factory, so do you think it ist worth to contact them for any information?

 

I have no clue if Gibson/Epiphone ever answers such kind of mails, I can imagine that they are flooded with questions once they start answering. Do you have any experience?

 

The other Question, what could be a reasonable price for this Texan? It must have been built late 60's until early 70's, and there are a lot of dings and dongs.

The worst is the crack on the lower belly, in fact it is a horsebite. The upper teeth cracked the spruce top, and the lower teeth scraped the side

This one mare is quite picky about how to play Johnny Cash songs...

 

image-9_zpsil2frc46.jpeg

 

 

Take care

Lutz

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....in fact it is a horsebite. The upper teeth cracked the spruce top, and the lower teeth scraped the side ...

 

That story probably makes it worth more than having that gouge professionally repaired.

 

Or maybe not. eusa_hand.gif

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I'd suspect this is either a '68 or '69 Kalamazoo-built Texan. 1968 was the first appearance of an adjustable belly-down bridge from the Gibson factory. In 1970, production of Epiphones moved to Japan, and the Texan became a square-shouldered import, as opposed to the round-shouldered example you have here.

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bobouz is absolutely correct. Gibson began transitioning to the belly down adjustable style bridge in 1968 (ish), and they were indeed put on the Texan. I forgot this. I mostly associate this bridge style with the once round shouldered Gibsons like the J-45 that became square shouldered around this time, but the Texan (which I think remained round shouldered while it was made in Kalamazoo) got 'em, too. bobouz has set me straight and gave you a great approximation of the date of your guitar.

 

Thanks, bobouz.

 

Red 333

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Thanks, bobouz.

Red 333

Glad I could help a little bit, Red.

 

Re the question of value from the OP, I would just mention that the last few years of Gibson's '60s production are the least desirable (from that decade) in the eyes of many, and the overall condition of the instrument would rate quite low due to modifications & the rather rough life the guitar has lead.

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