Gibson Warranty Didn't Fix My Les Paul

[danielwewo]

Hey guys, first time posting and I'm a new member so if this is in the wrong place let me know. Anyway, here's the deal:

 

I've got a 2005 Gibson Les Paul Studio. I got it when I was about 12 years old, so I didn't really know there was anything wrong with the guitar at the time, but over time I realized that there was certainly something wrong with my guitar. I can tune the guitar up perfectly, but if I strike a chord (particularly open chords, or power chords on the 6th string) it sounds terribly out of tune. I figured this might be a harmonics or a truss rod issue, and I didn't really have faith in my ability to do it properly so I took the guitar in to be set up by a repair guy. The repair man I took it to has a fantastic reputation in my area, and I know him through a mutual friend, so I trust his judgment to a certain degree. He informed me that he put the truss rod in full relief, and the neck won't go any further, the neck is warped. I figured that all would be well, Gibson will take care of me with my lifetime warranty.

 

I sent my Les Paul in to the warranty/repair center, and after waiting quite a while received the guitar back with a note in the case stating something like "No neck warping found, hardware replaced." The guitar did indeed have a new bridge put on it, but that's it. I tuned it up, struck a chord, and it's just as bad as it was before.

 

Now, a few notes of clarification here:

 

I'm not certain that the repair man/tech that I brought it to knew exactly what was wrong, but he definitely agreed with me that there was something wrong. I am not crazy, I know that. I've played professionally in different bands for about 10 years now, and I've got plenty of other guitars, and they all sound great.

 

I love this guitar, and I'd love to get it fixed, or have a similar guitar in its place. What do you guys think I should do? I'm afraid to spend the money on shipping to Gibson warranty repair again for them to just send it back saying there is nothing wrong.

[Searcy]

I have never heard of a neck warp causing tuning issues on one string.

[Eracer_Team]

I'm not sure he mentioned just 1 string. but he mentions chords, esp those that include the 6th string.. and states chords sound out of tune.

 

claims that the truss rod will not give anymore neck relief.

 

so if the truss rods is backed off all the way, they are trying to add back bow.

 

he should try and put a capo on the 1st fret and then depress say the 15th fret.. measure the distance from the top of the 7th fret to the bottom side of the string of both Low and High E.. should be around 5-8thou.. or just over the thickness of a single sheet of printer paper to a doubled up piece of paper.

 

that will tell you how the neck relief is.

 

I have heard many state their LP's sound out of tune but what turns out that they maybe pressing the strings as hard as they can into the fret board.. so maybe the frets are too high?

 

 

 

[danielwewo]

I have never heard of a neck warp causing tuning issues on one string.

 

Like I said, I'm not 100% certain the tech knew exactly what was wrong, and it's not just on one string, it's when I strike chords (particularly open chords or power chords with a 6th string root)

 

 

I'm not sure he mentioned just 1 string. but he mentions chords, esp those that include the 6th string.. and states chords sound out of tune.

 

claims that the truss rod will not give anymore neck relief.

 

so if the truss rods is backed off all the way, they are trying to add back bow.

 

he should try and put a capo on the 1st fret and then depress say the 15th fret.. measure the distance from the top of the 7th fret to the bottom side of the string of both Low and High E.. should be around 5-8thou.. or just over the thickness of a single sheet of printer paper to a doubled up piece of paper.

 

that will tell you how the neck relief is.

 

I have heard many state their LP's sound out of tune but what turns out that they maybe pressing the strings as hard as they can into the fret board.. so maybe the frets are too high?

 

I'll try to check the neck relief like that and let you guys know what I find out.

 

I don't think I'm pressing the strings crazy hard or anything, and I get this issue with all string gauge sizes as well... I guess it could be the frets?

[Eracer_Team]

use a good tuner too.

 

press lightly as you fret each note on the neck.. see were the note is tuned,, then press hard on the string.. bet you see the note pull sharp on many frets

 

 

 

[charlie brown]

I'm assuming you intonated it, or had it done by the tech, and/or Gibson, with the new bridge?

 

It's odd...I had a very similar situation, a couple of years ago, with my TV Yellow Double Cut LP Special,

"all of a sudden!" :unsure:

 

Found out, right away, it was an intonation problem, at the bridge. Now...HOW it got out of proper intonation,

that it had always had, is STILL a mystery, to me. But, I re-did the intonation, myself, and then had my very trusted

tech check it, just to be sure, and all was well, from then on. I had not changed string gauges, or done anything

(knowingly) untoward at all. It seemed to just "go out," on it's own.

 

CB

[pippy]

...I can tune the guitar up perfectly, but if I strike a chord (particularly open chords, or power chords on the 6th string) it sounds terribly out of tune...

I sent my Les Paul in to the warranty/repair center, and...received the guitar back with a note in the case stating something like "No neck warping found, hardware replaced." The guitar did indeed have a new bridge put on it, but that's it. I tuned it up, struck a chord, and it's just as bad as it was before...

Stating the obvious you first need to understand what EXACTLY is wrong with the guitar before you try to "fix" it because If you don't know EXACTLY what is wrong then you are going to be chasing your tail.

 

First thing to check, as CB mentions above, is the intonation. This is the most likely cause of the problem you describe.

I assume you know how to intonate your guitar perfectly? Because if the intonation is out then you would arrive at the situation you describe at the very start of your post; i.e. the open strings can be tuned to correct pitch but when you fret a string the resultant note will be out of tune and chords will sound terrible.

 

Post pictures showing the position of your bridge saddles; the action at the 1st,12th and 22nd frets and a sighting down the length of the neck from truss-rod looking towards the neck/body join to show any neck bow and we might be able to help you more easily.

 

P.

[kidblast]

Unless the truss rod was so out of wack that the strings in the middle registers were miles off the fret board, that wont do much.

 

You would need a few days of checking to see weather or not the truss rod was or wasn't actively changing the neck relief.. Most of the time, even a sutble change will be noticed, but not always.

 

A warped neck is most often an indication of climate issues (too dry, then too humid.) This can be addressed by putting the neck in a heat clamp for a few hours, (usually over night)... this clam slowly warms the neck, and pulls it back "true".. (a well equipped repair guy will have something to address this problem)

 

 

Lastly, even with good intonation, people who have a heavy hand will pull guitars out of tune, the larger the frets, the more prominent this can be.

 

in my experience as a teacher for many years and some what of a capable setup tech, I've often picked up students guitars to check similar complaints, (won't play in tune) and when I play it, they remark, "wow, it sounds fine.." they play it and say, "Ah See.. it's out of tune"...

 

I find in a lot of cases (well almost ALL) They are just pushing down too hard on the strings. For example, One of my students was a middle aged contractor that finally decided he wanted to learn to play some guitar. Had hands like bricks. Could never get his guitar to play in tune, (a very nice acoustic that he'd bought brand new) When I'd play it and it was perfectly fine. He was just strangling the neck, understandable as the guy slings hammers and power tools all day long.

 

Now, before you yell at me.. I'm not saying this is your problem, I'm merely offering this as an observation I have no idea how long you have been playing or what your method of playing is (light touch, heavy touch, small hands, large hands) so the first thing to check is what does it sound like with someone else playing it? same problem?

[danielwewo]

use a good tuner too.

 

press lightly as you fret each note on the neck.. see were the note is tuned,, then press hard on the string.. bet you see the note pull sharp on many frets

 

I've got a couple different boss tuners, one of them with the more precise measurements but it's at the practice spot and I don't remember the model

 

 

I'm assuming you intonated it, or had it done by the tech, and/or Gibson, with the new bridge?

 

It's odd...I had a very similar situation, a couple of years ago, with my TV Yellow Double Cut LP Special,

"all of a sudden!" :unsure:

 

Found out, right away, it was an intonation problem, at the bridge. Now...HOW it got out of proper intonation,

that it had always had, is STILL a mystery, to me. But, I re-did the intonation, myself, and then had my very trusted

tech check it, just to be sure, and all was well, from then on. I had not changed string gauges, or done anything

(knowingly) untoward at all. It seemed to just "go out," on it's own.

 

CB

 

The tech did set up the intonation, supposedly. Maybe I should try another tech? Any tips on where to find a good one?

Also, I'm assuming Gibson warranty set up the intonation on the new bridge... I'll attempt to check it myself.

 

 

Stating the obvious you first need to understand what EXACTLY is wrong with the guitar before you try to "fix" it because If you don't know EXACTLY what is wrong then you are going to be chasing your tail.

 

First thing to check, as CB mentions above, is the intonation. This is the most likely cause of the problem you describe.

I assume you know how to intonate your guitar perfectly? Because if the intonation is out then you would arrive at the situation you describe at the very start of your post; i.e. the open strings can be tuned to correct pitch but when you fret a string the resultant note will be out of tune and chords will sound terrible.

 

Post pictures showing the position of your bridge saddles; the action at the 1st,12th and 22nd frets and a sighting down the length of the neck from truss-rod looking towards the neck/body join to show any neck bow and we might be able to help you more easily.

 

P.

 

I thought intonation would be the issue, but I've attempted to set it up properly in the past, and didn't really see much improvement, though I'm no professional. I did have the tech set it up.

 

 

Unless the truss rod was so out of wack that the strings in the middle registers were miles off the fret board, that wont do much.

 

You would need a few days of checking to see weather or not the truss rod was or wasn't actively changing the neck relief.. Most of the time, even a sutble change will be noticed, but not always.

 

A warped neck is most often an indication of climate issues (too dry, then too humid.) This can be addressed by putting the neck in a heat clamp for a few hours, (usually over night)... this clam slowly warms the neck, and pulls it back "true".. (a well equipped repair guy will have something to address this problem)

 

 

Lastly, even with good intonation, people who have a heavy hand will pull guitars out of tune, the larger the frets, the more prominent this can be.

 

in my experience as a teacher for many years and some what of a capable setup tech, I've often picked up students guitars to check similar complaints, (won't play in tune) and when I play it, they remark, "wow, it sounds fine.." they play it and say, "Ah See.. it's out of tune"...

 

I find in a lot of cases (well almost ALL) They are just pushing down too hard on the strings. For example, One of my students was a middle aged contractor that finally decided he wanted to learn to play some guitar. Had hands like bricks. Could never get his guitar to play in tune, (a very nice acoustic that he'd bought brand new) When I'd play it and it was perfectly fine. He was just strangling the neck, understandable as the guy slings hammers and power tools all day long.

 

Now, before you yell at me.. I'm not saying this is your problem, I'm merely offering this as an observation I have no idea how long you have been playing or what your method of playing is (light touch, heavy touch, small hands, large hands) so the first thing to check is what does it sound like with someone else playing it? same problem?

 

I don't think the truss rod really is the issue. The strings don't sit super close to the neck or way above it.

As to the other issues you listed, I actually have some smaller hands, and I don't fret or strum super hard. Like I said, I can play plenty of other guitars (even other les pauls) and they sound fine. I have had other guitarists take my guitar, tune it up, strike a chord, and they all immediately recognize the issue. I have been playing for about 14 years now, with lessons the first few years, and professionally for about 10 years (been on a couple US tours when I was 17-19 in a metal band.) and I now play in a country band that plays a couple bar shows a month.

 

 

So, I think you guys are right. I need to figure out EXACTLY what is wrong. I'll check the string height the way you guys said, and I'll post pictures of the bridge. I'll attempt to set the intonation and possibly find another guitar tech around here. Do you guys have any tips on finding someone who'll be able to help me out? (Considering the last guy I took it to couldn't fix it either.)

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Also check the nut slots. They may need to be cut deeper.

[slk]

Where are you located? That could help a lot on who to take it to.

 

Steve

[danielwewo]

Where are you located? That could help a lot on who to take it to.

 

Steve

 

San Bernardino County, CA.

[kidblast]

yea, sounds like your hands/touch are simply not the issue, had to ask! :)

 

Also check the nut slots. They may need to be cut deeper.

 

yea, Farns, that is quite possible and could definitely attribute to this.

 

Daniel do you know if the nut was ever checked for proper depth,, etc?

[danielwewo]

yea, sounds like your hands/touch are simply not the issue, had to ask! :)

 

 

 

yea, Farns, that is quite possible and could definitely attribute to this.

 

Daniel do you know if the nut was ever checked for proper depth,, etc?

 

kidblast, no problem at all. I'd make sure of that as well.

 

As far as the nut goes I don't remember for certain, but I do think the tech checked it out. Is there a precise way that I can measure that?

 

Also, to everybody here on this forum, thank you so much for helping me out. I don't think I've ever been on a more friendly, understanding, and helpful forum.

[kidblast]

 

As far as the nut goes I don't remember for certain, but I do think the tech checked it out. Is there a precise way that I can measure that?

 

 

Hey Daniel.

 

The way I've always done this is with a feeler gauge, measuring the gap of the bottom of the string to the top of the first fret. These feeler gauges are the ones you get in an auto parts store, you just want to use some thing to clean the blades as they are lubricated to keep them moving freely, and to prevent rusting.

 

check it out in more detail here (Dan Erlewine btw is a total wizard.)

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Guitar_Nut_and_Saddle_Setup_and_Repair/Using_Feeler_Gauges_to_Control_Nut_Slot_Depth.html

[danielwewo]

Well, I figured out what the problem was. A few of you knew exactly what the issue was right away. I didn't even realize until I played it, but I AM pushing the strings too hard!

 

But... I'm still a little suspicious that something is up because I wasn't lying when I said that other people have the same issue when they play this guitar. I tested how much the pitch changes when I press the string all the way down, and if I press it to the wood I can get more than 1/4 bend in most places, on the 3rd string second fret I can even get a whole 1/2 step bend! This can't be normal, right? I have to touch the 3rd string so crazy lightly to get the proper pitch.

 

Am I just incompetent at guitar? Lol. I've got plenty of other guitars and never have this issue with them.

[pippy]

...if I press it to the wood I can get more than 1/4 bend in most places, on the 3rd string second fret I can even get a whole 1/2 step bend! This can't be normal, right?...I've got plenty of other guitars and never have this issue with them.

What are the fret-heights like on your other guitars? Do they have lower frets?

IMX most Gibson guitars these days have frets which are higher than other brands. It could be that you don't experience this problem with your other guitars because you can't bend the strings as far because, in effect, the surface of the fretboard is 'nearer' the strings and therefore string deflection/bend is reduced.

 

You have a few choices.

A change of technique - using a lighter touch - when playing your Gibson or a lowering of the fret-height by a COMPETENT luthier. If possible I suggest you try to change your technique.

There's absolutely no need to 'press to the wood' when fretting; all you need to do is make the string touch the crown of the fret. This will also bring longer-term benefits such as finer note control when playing bends and ultimately longer fret-life through reduced fret-wear.

 

Good luck and let us know how things go.

 

P.

[kidblast]

 

Am I just incompetent at guitar? Lol. I've got plenty of other guitars and never have this issue with them.

 

I doubt that is the case at all. The Gibby's tend to go with medium jumbo frets, if your other guitars are set up with more vintage sized frets, (that like you'd find on say a 50's fender reissue neck) these will be quite a bit thinner. So check the size of the frets on your others. Maybe it's that you play those more than the LP?

 

I had an Ibanez MC400 with huge frets from the late 70s, I was the only one who could play that guitar in tune, everyone else couldn't get the knack of the touch due to the depth of the frets.

 

Conversely, I don't like the "Fenderish" 50's style frets simply because I'm used to having more meat on the frets. I had a gorgeous custom shop Fender time machine 57 strat. I never bonded with it, not enough "fret" for me. Traded it for another les paul standard.

[merciful-evans]

Well, I figured out what the problem was. A few of you knew exactly what the issue was right away. I didn't even realize until I played it, but I AM pushing the strings too hard!

 

But... I'm still a little suspicious that something is up because I wasn't lying when I said that other people have the same issue when they play this guitar. I tested how much the pitch changes when I press the string all the way down, and if I press it to the wood I can get more than 1/4 bend in most places, on the 3rd string second fret I can even get a whole 1/2 step bend! This can't be normal, right? I have to touch the 3rd string so crazy lightly to get the proper pitch.

 

Am I just incompetent at guitar? Lol. I've got plenty of other guitars and never have this issue with them.

 

Daniel,

(pressing too hard)

I was tempted to ask are you're using very light gauge strings on this guitar, but this is happening on the wound strings rather than the G B & e.

 

Its surprising how hard correcting poor habits are. I had to learn to play with a lighter touch also. The trick for me was separating the effort in picking & fretting. So I played simple exercises picking hard while relaxing my fretting pressure. Having achieved it once, it was fairly easy to incorporate after.

[Little Jerry]

As other here have suggested, you may want to consider taking the guitar for another set-up by a different luthier. Throughout this thread, possible issues about this guitar have ranged from warped neck (luthier), replaced bridge (Gibson), intonation, fret size and of course playing technique. If you live in San Bernardino County, you are less than a 1 ½ hour drive from Los Angeles, where several reputable luthiers can be found. My guess is that there are probably a few in your area as well. You can check Yelp or other sources to find one with good ratings and feedback. During the intake, the luthier I use generally asks customers if they have any concerns about their guitars. For a set-up, he also does a few quick measurements on intake to check the shape of the neck and to see if the frets are level or not. I think a good luthier will help you put to rest any questions about the physical characteristics about the guitar and might even share a thought or two about your playing technique if you can demonstrate that the issue persists once the guitar’s condition has been cleared.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Well, I figured out what the problem was. A few of you knew exactly what the issue was right away. I didn't even realize until I played it, but I AM pushing the strings too hard!

 

But... I'm still a little suspicious that something is up because I wasn't lying when I said that other people have the same issue when they play this guitar. I tested how much the pitch changes when I press the string all the way down, and if I press it to the wood I can get more than 1/4 bend in most places, on the 3rd string second fret I can even get a whole 1/2 step bend! This can't be normal, right? I have to touch the 3rd string so crazy lightly to get the proper pitch.

 

Am I just incompetent at guitar? Lol. I've got plenty of other guitars and never have this issue with them.

 

Sounding even more like the nut slots could be deaper. Any amount of sharpness from pressure will be exaggerated if the nut slots aren't deep enough.

 

You might find you can then mitigate the effect by applying less pressure but if your not having this on other guitars I think it's worth investigating. Sand a pencil down along its length until you have half a pencil (width wise) and then lay your newly created flat side on the tops of the frets. You can now drawer a line on the nut at precisely the height of the first fret. The bottom of the nut slots should be on, or within half a gnats c0ck of the line.

[danielwewo]

What are the fret-heights like on your other guitars? Do they have lower frets?

IMX most Gibson guitars these days have frets which are higher than other brands. It could be that you don't experience this problem with your other guitars because you can't bend the strings as far because, in effect, the surface of the fretboard is 'nearer' the strings and therefore string deflection/bend is reduced.

 

You have a few choices.

A change of technique - using a lighter touch - when playing your Gibson or a lowering of the fret-height by a COMPETENT luthier. If possible I suggest you try to change your technique.

There's absolutely no need to 'press to the wood' when fretting; all you need to do is make the string touch the crown of the fret. This will also bring longer-term benefits such as finer note control when playing bends and ultimately longer fret-life through reduced fret-wear.

 

Good luck and let us know how things go.

 

P.

 

Yesterday I was jamming while trying to press down softer and was getting a MUCH better pitch accurate sound. I almost never fret to the wood, only if I'm doing an odd bend and that's the only way I can get a good grip (and in that case I'm bending the string into the proper pitch anyway.)

 

 

 

I doubt that is the case at all. The Gibby's tend to go with medium jumbo frets, if your other guitars are set up with more vintage sized frets, (that like you'd find on say a 50's fender reissue neck) these will be quite a bit thinner. So check the size of the frets on your others. Maybe it's that you play those more than the LP?

 

I had an Ibanez MC400 with huge frets from the late 70s, I was the only one who could play that guitar in tune, everyone else couldn't get the knack of the touch due to the depth of the frets.

 

Conversely, I don't like the "Fenderish" 50's style frets simply because I'm used to having more meat on the frets. I had a gorgeous custom shop Fender time machine 57 strat. I never bonded with it, not enough "fret" for me. Traded it for another les paul standard.

 

The Les Paul was my first "good" guitar, so I actually played it a lot early on, but I never realized I was fretting too hard. I guess my hands are stronger than I thought. I'm thinking I should move from 10's to 11's (and maybe 12's) because in theory, I should have to press down harder to change the pitch. I also don't really have a problem doing big bends with 11's. I did play around with my other guitars and noticed that I COULD make them bend out of tune, but like other people said, the distance from fret to wood is smaller on those, and so I can't get as far out of tune.

 

Daniel,

(pressing too hard)

I was tempted to ask are you're using very light gauge strings on this guitar, but this is happening on the wound strings rather than the G B & e.

 

Its surprising how hard correcting poor habits are. I had to learn to play with a lighter touch also. The trick for me was separating the effort in picking & fretting. So I played simple exercises picking hard while relaxing my fretting pressure. Having achieved it once, it was fairly easy to incorporate after.

 

It happens on all of the strings, really. The G more than any of the other ones. I'm going to try moving up to 11's, I don't really have a problem bending those. Also, that technique sounds interesting, kinda like patting your head and rubbing your stomach lol. I'll definitely try that.

 

 

 

As other here have suggested, you may want to consider taking the guitar for another set-up by a different luthier. Throughout this thread, possible issues about this guitar have ranged from warped neck (luthier), replaced bridge (Gibson), intonation, fret size and of course playing technique. If you live in San Bernardino County, you are less than a 1 ½ hour drive from Los Angeles, where several reputable luthiers can be found. My guess is that there are probably a few in your area as well. You can check Yelp or other sources to find one with good ratings and feedback. During the intake, the luthier I use generally asks customers if they have any concerns about their guitars. For a set-up, he also does a few quick measurements on intake to check the shape of the neck and to see if the frets are level or not. I think a good luthier will help you put to rest any questions about the physical characteristics about the guitar and might even share a thought or two about your playing technique if you can demonstrate that the issue persists once the guitar’s condition has been cleared.

 

I think with thicker strings and attempting to play with a lighter touch will help a lot, but I'll also try to take it to a good luthier. He/She can probably help me check to make sure everything is set up properly and like you said, dispel any concerns I have about the guitar.

 

 

As a final note: You guys rule, this forum rules, I will probably stick around if you don't mind my heavy handed typing clogging up your forum posts ;)

[kidblast]

11s could help this issue for sure. if you're good to go with them, try it, it wont (or should not) make much of a difference to your guitar's setup.

 

 

As a final note: You guys rule, this forum rules, I will probably stick around if you don't mind my heavy handed typing clogging up your forum post!

 

 

ye man! Hang around by all means, this forum is a real friendly, cozy place!

[danielwewo]

11s could help this issue for sure. if you're good to go with them, try it, it wont (or should not) make much of a difference to your guitar's setup.

 

 

As a final note: You guys rule, this forum rules, I will probably stick around if you don't mind my heavy handed typing clogging up your forum post!

 

 

ye man! Hang around by all means, this forum is a real friendly, cozy place!

 

The only thing I didn't find on here was a general gear section. You guys are pretty active, and so I was gonna ask about tips on my effects loop, etc. but I didn't really see a spot for that other than in general, or is this not the right forum for that? (considering it's a Gibson forum.)

[kidblast]

We don't really get too hung up on details usually,,

 

however, there's a gear section here http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/forum/46-gibson-gear/

(says Gibson Gear, but it does not have to be just about "Gibson" products)

 

The lounge is a good place for general questions like this too, it's probably the one most frequently visited by most of the board members. Lots of experience floating around with this lot.