Les Paul Mods

[cs orange widow]

So I have 3 les Paul customs, 1 of which is the new 57 Ture Historic black beauty, it has the bumble bee caps and it's a significant difference in tome compared to my other customs,,, it's like the others just sound blah compared to the 57.. so I have never been one for buying a guitar an doin any mods on it but now I'm gonna toss some bumble bee caps in both my other customs... what do you guys think? They are fairly rare guitars an always thought I'd keep them stock to hold their value down . but I will never sell them so I guess it's a no brainer to get the tone I really want.. what kinds of mods do you guys do to improve tone and eliminate pup noise and such???

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Gibson bees are fake. Not even mylar like the late bees.

 

Not getting onto whether caps make a difference again. Been down that road enough times, but Gibson bees are just polypropylene Wesco caps inside a case. You can buy them for pennies.

 

http://robotix0iii.tistory.com/m/entry/Truth-of-gibson-bumblebee

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

I replaced the entire wiring in my Traditional to see if there would be a significant change in tone.

I bought these:

https://luxe-radio.com/products/matched-pair-of-luxe-oil-filled-022mf-bumble-bee-capacitors-2

 

And tested them against the stock Orange Drops wich are excellent.

 

I even recorded some samples, if you turn it up loud and trough headphones you may hear a difference.

I'm not good at recording.

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/124689-scientific-meaningless-comparison-update-now-with-working-link/

 

For me it worked and I'm very happy with the results, but most of the change came from changing all the component's both stock volumes were 250k pot's, I replaced them for 500k's. And the Tonepros hardware with aluminium tailpiece may have helped too. All those little changes together and paired with the 59 Tributes turned, my guitars sound from really nice to exellent.

Very clean and articulate, you can hear every string clearly ring trough,

And it stay's that way when driven even with the tone turned lower.

Like Farns said the Gibson branded Bee's aren't really PIO's, if you wan't Bee's go with Luxe.

Or I may be wrong but I think Emerson made some Bee's too, they make PIO's for sure.

[pippy]

As Farns has already mentioned cap-swapping is a topic which crops up time and time again.

 

Electronics experts assure us that the material from which our caps are constructed cannot alter the end-tone.

 

I'm very sceptical of all things Hype but, quite by chance(*), I swapped-out a pair of ceramic caps in one of my LPs for a pair of Luxe PIO Grey Tigers (think Bees but a different colour) and noticed they made a vast improvement. I don't know why it made a difference because we are told that, technically, it shouldn't do but it did.

 

Pip.

 

(*) The LP should have sounded great before the swap. It really 'rang and sang' unplugged but was disappointing plugged-in. Someone before I bought it had swapped the stock p'ups for a matched pair of the very highly regarded SD Antiquities yet it sounded dull in comparison to my other LPs. A friend, however, had a spare pair of the Luxe G-Ts and suggested I try them out. What did I have to lose but 10 mins. of my life? I'm very glad I spent those 10 mins. with a soldering iron....

[Guest Farnsbarns]

FWIW I too believe that cap chemistry can make a difference to tone. I also believe I have a logical explanation for that but you'll find people are not getting into it after the number of rows on here and on other sites.

 

All I can tell you for sure is that Gibson bees, AKA Wesco poly caps, are not "considered" tone caps in the sense that PIO caps and mylar caps have been by some.

 

I replaced the Gibson bees in my R8 with Sprague PIO caps and I believe it opened up the sound a little, more so when backing off the bridge pup tone control.

[capmaster]

As Farns has already mentioned cap-swapping is a topic which crops up time and time again.

 

Electronics experts assure us that the material from which our caps are constructed cannot alter the end-tone.

 

I'm very sceptical of all things Hype but, quite by chance(*), I swapped-out a pair of ceramic caps in one of my LPs for a pair of Luxe PIO Grey Tigers (think Bees but a different colour) and noticed they made a vast improvement. I don't know why it made a difference because we are told that, technically, it shouldn't do but it did.

 

Pip.

 

(*) The LP should have sounded great before the swap. It really 'rang and sang' unplugged but was disappointing plugged-in. Someone before I bought it had swapped the stock p'ups for a matched pair of the very highly regarded SD Antiquities yet it sounded dull in comparison to my other LPs. A friend, however, had a spare pair of the Luxe G-Ts and suggested I try them out. What did I have to lose but 10 mins. of my life? I'm very glad I spent those 10 mins. with a soldering iron....

It wasn't the capacitors but something else that made the difference. Accurate investigations of before and after would show.

 

I knew a late audio professional and studio builder who sadly died from cancer three years ago. He was famous around Munich for achieving the best S/N ratios possible with a given gear. First all the wiring between units had been done by him. After reading measurements he refined the internal ground wiring of mixing boards, including brands like Solid State Logic and Neve, I'm not kidding. Using household installation cable, soldering iron and solder from the DIY store, he reduced hum about up to 20 dB and the overall noise between 7 Hz and 22 kHz about 8 dB.

 

Most guitars include room for electrical improvement that doesn't depend on any other component but just wire. Replacing all the braided wire used in Gibson instruments is a good example.

[pippy]

I'm sorry, Cap, but I'm simply not going to go into this matter.

 

You know tech. I know my gear inside out. You don't.

No wiring was changed. Two caps were unsoldered. Two caps were soldered.

Do you wish to say different solder changed the tone of the guitar? Because that's the only other possibility.

 

Pip.

[capmaster]

I'm sorry, Cap, but I'm simply not going to go into this matter.

 

You know tech. I know my gear inside out. You don't.

No wiring was changed. Two caps were unsoldered. Two caps were soldered.

Do you wish to say different solder changed the tone of the guitar? Because that's the only other option.

 

Pip.

Different orientation of capacitors can do that. Wound foil capacitors including PIOs don't have a polarity but an inner and an outer foil layer. This is the only way a capacitor may affect clarity of tone with all the controls fully raised.

[SteveFord]

Do different brands of caps sound different?

Sure they do.

Happy reading!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0

[capmaster]

Do different brands of caps sound different?

Sure they do.

Happy reading!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0

Not necessarily brands but makes. As I implied in my previous post, with the controls fully raised, capacitor makes don't affect the sound other than with their susceptibility for noise present in the environment.

 

When you turn the tone control down to zero, the properties of the capacitor increasingly affect the tone.

 

In my opinion and to my experiences Vishay Sprague Orange Drop and Mallory 150 series capacitors will do perfectly for the most advanced applications.

[pippy]

Different orientation of capacitors can do that....This is the only way a capacitor may affect clarity of tone with all the controls fully raised.

First; I almost never have my tone and vol knobs fully raised. My tone knobs are usually around 3 - 5 1/2 and vol between 7 1/2 and 9 1/2. But then again; you don't appreciate '50s wiring, cap, in the same way as I do so you don't know what my gear sounds like when I'm using it.

 

Second; This is why it is always futile to discuss cap-swaps with those who 'know' better.

 

Have fun, kids. I'm outta here.

 

 

Pip.

[capmaster]

First; I almost never have my tone and vol knobs fully raised.

Second; This is why it is always futile to discuss cap-swaps with those who 'know' better.

 

Have fun, kids.

 

Pip.

I simply can't have fun with less clarity and more noise than the gear allows for. I couldn't as a kid and still cannot now.

 

And - just the opposite here when about controls on guitars. Sometimes I roll tone controls and very rarely volume controls slightly back, mostly to lessen interference with my voice when experimenting on songs with no dedicated settings in the amp's memory yet, but that's it. The reason is what I said above - I love tonal clarity and as much S/N ratio as possible.

 

I use 60+ settings from my virtual amp's memory, designed for specific parts of specific songs and particular guitars with dedicated pickup selector settings. Next to all of the rest I do with active pedals.

 

No matter if I sing, play drums, bass, or guitar, the sound engineer in me is always out for the best way to get the sonic result I want. While playing guitar and keyboards on track recordings in a professional 24-track studio in the early 1980's, the recording engineer requested to always fully raise all the controls of passive instruments and adjust everything else at the amp. He simply was right.

[IanHenry]

Just to go slightly off topic, here's an interview with Joe Bonamassa where he mentions the effect the pots have on the sound. Go to about 25 minutes 20 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwWjEJjUoeg

 

 

Ian

[pippy]

Nice clip, Ian!

 

 

...just the opposite here when about controls on guitars...

I use 60+ settings from my virtual amp's memory, designed for specific parts of specific songs and particular guitars with dedicated pickup selector settings. Next to all of the rest I do with active pedals...

 

Yes, well as you say; we approach our own tonal goals from opposite directions. One major difference between our respective needs is whereas you are recording stuff I have only ever played live. Recording music, clearly, has different requirements.

I use one amp - the same amp I've used since 1980 - and no pedals whatsoever. I get my tone from the amp, the guitar and, if I may be allowed to be smug, my own ability............

 

 

Here's a clip of me(*) playing the old Duster Bennet song 'Jumping at Shadows' back in 1992 which shows how it should be done;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmOTefm0_Jw

 

Pip.

 

(*) Actually it isn't me at all. But he has copied my style quite well...........

[IanHenry]

Nice clip, Ian!

 

 

 

 

Yes, well as you say; we approach our own tonal goals from opposite directions. One major difference between our respective needs is whereas you are recording stuff I have only ever played live. Recording music, clearly, has different requirements.

I use one amp - the same amp I've used since 1980 - and no pedals whatsoever. I get my tone from the amp, the guitar and, if I may be allowed to be smug, my own ability............

 

 

Here's a clip of me(*) playing the old Duster Bennet song 'Jumping at Shadows' back in 1992 which shows how it should be done;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmOTefm0_Jw

 

Pip.

 

(*) Actually it isn't me at all. But he has copied my style quite well...........

 

Ah yes Pippy, he was a bit of a bugger for that!

I once read an interview with a guitar shop owner, who said Gary used to frequent his shop. Anyway the guy was saying how Gary was showing him his Peter Green sound round about the time he was making the Blues for Greeny album, and Gary was enthusing about his Peter Green Sound, but the bloke said "he just sounded like Gary Moore trying to sound like Peter Green, but I didn't have the heart to tell him".

 

Ian

[pippy]

...the bloke said "he just sounded like Gary Moore trying to sound like Peter Green, but I didn't have the heart to tell him"...

 

Yes, the 'Blues for Greeny' album is a bit like the Curate's Egg.

On some of the tracks he does get pretty close to a PG tone but mostly it's simply Gary being Gary with the OD pedal turned down a couple of notches. But why not? He was GARY MOORE; not PETER GREEN ! ! !......

I'm sure the whole point of the album wasn't trying to pretend he WAS Peter Green - it was recorded as a tribute to his friend and if we accept it as that then he did it well IMO. HIs playing on his versions of Merry Go Round and Long Grey Mare is excellent.

 

Oddly enough the track where he DOES sound most like PG, the one in the vid clip, isn't on the B-f-Greeny disc but on 'After Hours'.

There's also a very nice live version of the track on his 'Blues Alive' album.

 

Pip.

[Eracer_Team]

well technically you are creating what's known from the old days an LRC circuit.

 

so even with the pots wide open there is a load/resistive/capacitance that it maintained by the pot, and the cap attached.

 

so we'd like to think that there is no effect from the cap at wide open pots but its not entirely true; unless you have switch that switches the output of the pickup straight to the jack while disengaging the rest of the components..

 

 

 

 

also If you think of the theory that the Cap/etc has no effect at wide open. why do we hear a difference between a 300k pot and a 500k pot..

 

with the pot sweepers wide open we will read 0 ohms on the meter on both pots.. yet there is a tonal difference between the two.

 

 

 

[Guest Farnsbarns]

well technically you are creating what's known from the old days an LRC circuit.

 

so even with the pots wide open there is a load/resistive/capacitance that it maintained by the pot, and the cap attached.

 

so we'd like to think that there is no effect from the cap at wide open pots but its not entirely true; unless you have switch that switches the output of the pickup straight to the jack while disengaging the rest of the components..

 

 

 

 

also If you think of the theory that the Cap/etc has no effect at wide open. why do we hear a difference between a 300k pot and a 500k pot..

 

with the pot sweepers wide open we will read 0 ohms on the meter on both pots.. yet there is a tonal difference between the two.

 

Especially with 50s wiring where the tone "stack" if I may call a single cap and pot a stack in this instance, isn't simply tagged in in parallel with the volume pot.