Wolf-tones (or rather ghost-tones)

[E-minor7]

Eeeeehhh, inspired by my own post in the thread about that new brand, I feel like touching the topic WOLF-TONES.

 

In particular the wolf-tone in the G-chords - namely the A. But feel free to add to own experiences.

This is a factor we rarely speak of but it's time and here I go :

A few years ago I discovered that some of my guitars had the A harmonic when taking a plain G-chord.

Now unless you are some kind of jazzer an A doesn't belong in a G. You just don't want it there.

 

Now it became clear to me that fx my 1953 J-45 and the HD-28V produced higher even disturbing A-wolves when tuned half a step down.

As I got more aware the thing began to annoy me and for a long period I didn't play the guitars half down at all.

Then suddenly I noticed there was vague traces of them in ordinary tuning and 1 whole step down also, and from then on started 'watching out' for this sub-sonic bi-effect as a rule.

The maple dreads fx didn't have it - neither did the Birds or vintage squares. The re-necked 1966 CW - luckily no.

But the D-35 and several guitars checked on Tube-tests featured it to an alarming degree - high end stuff and well known classics too.

Saluted and respected test-players strummed it forward now and again, , , , without mentioning, , , ever noticing whatsoever.

And it occurred to me that I had found an issue-niche, which no one seemed to speak about, , , know of ?

 

YES, you heard me. As I see it, there's no awareness 'bout the degree of disturbing A-wolf-tones in common G-chords.

Take it or leave it - but let's see what you have to say.

 

Ooouh, , , and if you are uncertain about what is meant, listen to the Pre-Wars in the mentioned thread.

Especially the J's have it. The 2 D's show lesser (un-relic'd to the right has most) and the HD least of the 5.

 

Just made a fast round among a few guitars here and it's clearest when taking the G with muted bass-B and the extra D-note on the second string.

I simply believe the A is generated by the D-force.

However the phenomenon varies from instrument to instrument and might be heard deep inside the G-chord in most acoustics after all.

[Dave F]

Thanks for starting this thread. I've never heard of this. Did a quick look around and found this on Sweetwater.

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/wolf-tone/

 

 

Wolf Tone

By Sweetwater on Dec 23, 2002, 12:00 AM Like+1TweetA particular type of resonance often associated with stringed instruments, especially the cello, violin and viola. Wolf tones occur when the resonant frequency of a vibrating string and the resonant frequency of the vibrating body of the instrument interact with one another in such a way as to produce a new, unwanted beating tone that occurs simultaneously with a note being played. This beating isn’t really a new note being introduced, it is just the sound of beating that occurs when two notes of nearly (but not the same) pitch are played together. For example, a note played on an instrument may modulate its volume excessively – this is often the result of a wolf tone. It is often a distracting and thus unwanted phenomenon; one that string players have been plagued with for centuries. One attribute of “better” instruments is that the wolf tone lies between two semitones and thus rarely becomes much of a problem so long as the instrument is tuned to proper pitch. Nevertheless many fine instruments do have problems with wolf tones. Often players can tame it by placing a few grams of mass on a string between the bridge and tailpiece in a position where the resonant frequency matches the wolf tone. The mass makes it harder for the string to interact with the resonance, which reduces the effect. Different string gauges sometimes help, and even different playing techniques can help. Sometimes wolf tones will seem to come and go with changes in humidity and so forth. This is simply due to the instrument’s resonant frequency changing slightly due to differing atmospheric conditions.

 

 

 

 

 

[E-minor7]

Okay, maybe there's more to the wolf-tone concept than I thought.

 

What I mean is an unwelcome harmonic generated as some kind key cross-over with the assistance of the respective acoustic box (plus fx capo or tuning down) :

 

As if the D-note in the G-chord conjures the A overtone familiar with or related to the A in a D-chord.

[rct]

Electric guitar players are very familiar with wolf tones generated by pickups too close to strings. Feedback, the desirable harmonic kind, is nothing more than pleasing wolf tones when you think about it, it's sympathy between pickups and speakers.

 

rct

[tpbiii]

We have a 1941 D-18 that does it. It sound like the phone ringing. If we are playing in the house, we often stop to answer the non-existent call -- it generally still catches me by surprise. I am a slow learner.

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[E-minor7]

And to show an example both guitars in this clip - but far from all M dreads - have it.

 

Listen when TP goes from the G7 to straight G at 5:03.

 

Very pronounced -

 

 

~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1OAmbbhzbI

[62burst]

Regretfully, not hearing an “A” at all. This, after several hard listens thru the monitors, one hand on the replay button, one hand on the guitar, sounding an “A” simultaneously. Anyone else hearing A?

 

It was interesting reading the technical definition of wolf tone; I once had a luthier (of the guitar whisperer-variety) return a guitar, enthusiastically informing me that my old Southern Jumbo was an “E” guitar, it’s natural resonating frequency.

 

The only personal experience with what most closely resembles the wolf tone phenomenon would be the Guild Orpheum 12-fret, part of the Orpheum series Ren F. brought out with Guild. Crazy strong mids. In particular, the G note was off the charts, loud, but not howling. (There are a few here on the forum who also have this guitar- have you noticed the same thing?)

 

Try this: about an inch or so in front of the soundhole, make a fairly strong “Huh!” sound, in the pitch with the note (and open string) in question. In the case of the Guild, the G is very much louder than any of the other adjacent strings being “huhed” into at their pitches. This also works in a less dramatic fashion with E on the above-mentioned Southern Jumbo.

 

A violinist may know a wolf in this clothing, and it’s “a hideous wobbling pitch”:

 

 

How do you like their fix? Wolf fixer Laurel also mentions to check the other strings, as the wolf will be present when that frequency (note) is played on those strings, as well. Hmmm. . . something else to check, then.

 

Don’t have much confidence in a wolf eliminator being fashioned to work between the nut and the tuner post on a guitar, but some of OP Emin7’s other experiments at the saddle may hold a clue for a fix.

[E-minor7]

Regretfully, not hearing an "A" at all. This, after several hard listens thru the monitors, one hand on the replay button, one hand on the guitar, sounding an "A" simultaneously.

Anyone else hearing A?

Uak, , , you had me nervous I was hearing ghosts* yesterday, but no.

Listen in the overtone-register and it's very clear on both guitars.

They occur a split-second after the first strum and once established are easier to maintain.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFiJXIA70U0

 

 

Another thing is that I got the wolf-concept wrong. A wolf-tone apparently is an unhealthy almost crippled tone that can be fixed or assisted.

My thought is about unwanted and disturbing harmonics, which like the wolfs have to do with the acoustic circumstances of the woods/frequencies/box -

 

*so why not call them ghost-tones.

[Buc McMaster]

I'm with you, Em. I've always thought a wolf tone was a low, woofy overtone generated by a combination of particular notes effecting the build of a particular instrument. The way it's described in the cello video sounds like a dead spot on the fingerboard. Learn something new everyday, huh..........

[E-minor7]

I'm with you, Em. I've always thought a wolf tone was a low, woofy overtone generated by a combination of particular notes effecting the build of a particular instrument. The way it's described in the cello video sounds like a dead spot on the fingerboard. Learn something new everyday, huh..........

Hmmm, not sure, , the wolfs seem like an acoustical blockade - as if the frequencies around a certain zone choke then cramp.

 

And I get uncertain again - do they at all exist on acoustic guitars.

 

Apart from that - do you hear the ghost-harmonics on the 2 Marts ?

 

[j45nick]

Hmmm, not sure, , the wolfs seem like an acoustical blockade - as if the frequencies around a certain zone choke then cramp.

 

And I get uncertain again - do they at all exist on acoustic guitars.

 

Apart from that - do you hear the ghost-harmonics on the 2 Marts ?

 

 

 

What I hear is an off-sounding note that doesn't seem to go with the chord, as if the chord would be truer without it. It's hard to separate it out from the notes that make up an open G chord on the guitar (GBDGBG), but it's there.

[E-minor7]

What I hear is an off-sounding note that doesn't seem to go with the chord, as if the chord would be truer without it. It's hard to separate it out from the notes that make up an open G chord on the guitar (GBDGBG), but it's there.

 

'Xactly - and that note is a high A

[BluesKing777]

I hear the phone ringing while playing my HD28V! Possibly an A Harmonic.

 

Weird if I have my music room door open because the phone isn't loud enough to be my home phone, but if I shut that door...well, it can do your head in because it sounds the right volume for the ...err...phone ringing with the door shut!

 

Some people discovered if they put a leather headstock strap attachment on wrongly, instead of under the strings, over the strings between the nut and tuning posts, it can be eliminated. But that can dampen all kinds of things you want.

 

Wolf note is different, but I was reading (think it was Hoover from Santa Cruz) that every guitar has a wolf note and a dud fret but the good guitar designers can move them around to somewhere like the 18th fret 5th string or somewhere not played much. My old 0-17 has a dud 15th fret 1st string, but like like Chet said, there's no money up that end!

 

 

BluesKing777.

[the other side]

Such as RCT & BK, I have experienced the Wolfe tone.Dabbling in electrics many years ago, setting of the harmonics was very important on electrics. However, the venues and seasons (i.e weather) were a factor, or should I say the guitar, a victim of circumstance. As an acoustic man, I have often wondered how the engineers, set the harmonics on our high end, solid wooded instruments, possibly to curtail the "Ghostly Gremlins". Sometimes, it's not only particularly the "G", sometimes it's others in a slight manner due to the movement of the wood. I wonder though how the "Masters" before us put letters to the notes/strings? "A" meaning : Almost ?

[E-minor7]

I hear the phone ringing while playing my HD28V! Possibly an A Harmonic.

 

Weird if I have my music room door open because the phone isn't loud enough to be my home phone, but if I shut that door...well, it can do your head in because it sounds the right volume for the ...err...phone ringing with the door shut!

Some people discovered if they put a leather headstock strap attachment on wrongly, instead of under the strings, over the strings between the nut and tuning posts, it can be eliminated. But that can dampen all kinds of things you want.

 

Wolf note is different, but I was reading (think it was Hoover from Santa Cruz) that every guitar has a wolf note and a dud fret but the good guitar designers can move them around to somewhere like the 18th fret 5th string or somewhere not played much. My old 0-17 has a dud 15th fret 1st string, but like like Chet said, there's no money up that end!

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

Aha, , , and yes frequencies meet the ear in mysterious ways.

I remember walking down the hyper crowded pedestrian-street one summer day and passing a didgeridoo-player by the fountain.

Humming like a giant bass-bee, this guy knew what he was doin' and the drone went on forever as I moved forward far past what one would think was his common range - simply because it traveled beneath the rest of those big-city-scape-sounds.

The sub-space below us was free and blessed blower used it.

 

Regarding the HD-28V, it'll likely not be a problem other places than the G-chord.

And some won't even be bothered there, because - as this thread shows - people aren't really sensitive to the issue.

And I'm saying this in any arrogant way.

Presented the theme for my engineer while strumming a guitar and he couldn't hear it. What !?, , , he has ears like a watch-dog.

But I think they were tuned toward something else at the moment and the test wasn't really serious. I'll drag him through it again though - for his own sake.

 

In other words you have to be aware of and ready to recognize the ghost-harmonic.

So BK777, before you re-strum that test-G, do check the high A so you have identified where it lies from start.

 

Enjoy the exercise, but don't get lost within it ;-)

[j45nick]

Such as RCT & BK, I have experienced the Wolfe tone.Dabbling in electrics many years ago, setting of the harmonics was very important on electrics. However, the venues and seasons (i.e weather) were a factor, or should I say the guitar, a victim of circumstance. As an acoustic man, I have often wondered how the engineers, set the harmonics on our high end, solid wooded instruments, possibly to curtail the "Ghostly Gremlins". Sometimes, it's not only particularly the "G", sometimes it's others in a slight manner due to the movement of the wood. I wonder though how the "Masters" before us put letters to the notes/strings? "A" meaning : Almost ?

 

 

You want to dig pretty deeply into music theory and history to answer those questions. It's a through-the-looking-glass type of rabbit hole, but a mind-expanding one. Have a toke of wave theory while you're at it.

 

Just ask Alice.

[E-minor7]

Just ask Alice.

Alice, , , ooh Dallas Alice. Bet she had her undertones glowing.

 

Just ask Lowell George.

1977 ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWwgwADwHh0

[62burst]

Eureka! It's HIGH A!

 

Octaves away from where I was looking. Didn't pick up that added little bit of info. Ok, got the guitar out (the E guitar) and found Emin7's wolf conjuring the A on the fith fret of the 1st string.

 

 

I wonder though how the "Masters" before us put letters to the notes/strings? "A" meaning : Almost ?

 

This is where a chunk of the day went today, wondering if the tuner at A = 440 hz had anything to do with it; looking at sine waves, nodes, and music theory, playing guitar nerd when I should've been playing guitar.

 

 

[BluesKing777]

I have a semi-related question to do with 'masking' sounds.....

 

Anyone have a fairly loud outdoor water feature or fountain?

 

I was reading a novel, so possibly untrue, and the lead character was visiting a witness who lived beside a large freeway soundwall but... had a water fountain that masked the sounds from the other side of the freeway soundwall.

 

So to backtrack.....bonehead next door asked me if he could enter my side of the fence to bang up a few bits of decorative trellis and I said an emphatic 'NO' and explained that I had seen his DIY work including clipping a piece of bamboo reed on the same fence using an old motor battery jumper lead! NO, No! no.... I said to get a quote from a professional and I would put in half. That dampened his desire to do a bit of DIY that very moment and he sulked off and I never heard a thing back.

 

Then the major work began! His brother in law installed a pool for him with dodgy filter that he put on the other side of the fence from my outside seating area and veranda! And an air con plant! Because the filter pump is probably not big enough for the size of the pool, it runs almost endlessly from 8am to 10pm, including when he went on holidays for 3 weeks.

 

All within the law and by-laws, and I can't even throw dog **** over the fence to land in his pool.. Good idea and it wasn't me really.

 

Except I use to enjoy sitting there in the evening, grabbing a guitar, have a drink and a strum, but now the pool filter pump is going rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr in possibly D Flat. There is someone else's quiter pool pump over the back fence as well!

 

First World problem eh? Anyone have a water feature or fountain as sound mask? I put a stereo on when I am not playing guitar but that is no good for my playing.

 

(I wonder how the A harmonic 'PING' would sound out there with the D Flat pump sound?)

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[OldCowboy]

Alice, , , ooh Dallas Alice. Bet she had her undertones glowing.

 

Just ask Lowell George.

1977 ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWwgwADwHh0

I do recall Alice very well - did a lot of truck driver songs in the 1970s - was also kind of deaf back then - couldn't hear a 'wolf' or 'ghost' note back then and sure couldn't now. Blessed, I guess. Did have a J-200 at the time with a dead fret in a bad place: high e at the 3rd fret, which drove me to seek the realm of - well, let's just say higher realms - frequently. 😌

[j45nick]

Tried this on three of my flat tops tonight--Gibson SJ, L-OO, Martin OOO-28--with no evidence of the mystery overtone, but it may not have been much of a test, since only one of those guitars has "live" recent strings. Didn't try on others due to either string age or open tunings that I didn't want to un-do. All three of those guitars have PB strings, but two are wound on round cores, one on hex core.

 

I also wonder if you hear it differently from the back side of the guitar as opposed to the front.

 

One thing that was noticeable was that each guitar seemed to have a different primary resonant frequency--a point at which harmonics or overtones become startling apparent, like the "ring" in a tenor's voice at certain frequencies. That is also more pronounced with newer strings. Part of that may be determined by body shape and tonewoods.

 

Jeez, it's probably better just to play the damn things and not think about this kind of stuff. But it is fascinating.

[E-minor7]

Jeez, it's probably better just to play the damn things and not think about this kind of stuff. But it is fascinating.

 

Agree, but sometimes easier said than done. Especially when goin' from a ghostless guitar to one with the howling A.

 

Q - do you hear the A in Polecastro's Marts ?

 

[blindboygrunt]

Used to do a regular session in a local pub and a woman would be a regular punter. I could hear what she was saying , should she be 4 tables away, easier than someone at the table next to us . She just cut right through

If you're trying to sing a song and , like me , have trouble with pitch , you have to kind of block out that background noise. It seems that I couldn't block out her frequency and the crowd frequency and sing !! I grew to hate the woman

[E-minor7]

Used to do a regular session in a local pub and a woman would be a regular punter. I could hear what she was saying , should she be 4 tables away, easier than someone at the table next to us . She just cut right through

If you're trying to sing a song and , like me , have trouble with pitch , you have to kind of block out that background noise. It seems that I couldn't block out her frequency and the crowd frequency and sing !! I grew to hate the woman

 

You need Dallas Alice. .

 

 

[Mojorule]

I have a semi-related question to do with 'masking' sounds.....

 

 

First World problem eh? Anyone have a water feature or fountain as sound mask? I put a stereo on when I am not playing guitar but that is no good for my playing.

 

(I wonder how the A harmonic 'PING' would sound out there with the D Flat pump sound?)

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

I think a closed-back 100W Marshall stack pointing towards the pool would be an effective sound mask. Might create some interesting ghost tones if you plugged an acoustic into it. Would that break any bylaws during daylight hours?