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pickerson

Here for some answers from the pro's.

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Here for some answers from the pro's.

Asked all sorts of people - now I want the real poop.

 

I have 2 Gibson guitars.

SG and 335

1 Taylor 528-e

 

Each of these guitars cost thousands.

 

The SG and the Taylor - I have had for a few years - and have been professionally set up a few times over about 5 years.

 

I recently purchased the 335 - from a very reputable store here in Canada.

 

I record to midi and tuning is very important to me.

When I fret a note - I expect it to be in perfect tune.

 

With all of my guitars - however - they do not play perfect notes when fretted.

Some fretted locations are perfect tune - some not.

 

The intonation is perfect.

 

With my Gibson guitars - particularly **when fretting the A on the G string (3rd string 2nd fret) - the A always is sharp somewhat.**

 

For the SG - **if I compensate somewhat on the G string, pulling it back - not quite flat - the A will then be close to A on when fretted.**

 

**With the 335 - I have to pull the G string flat out of tune, to get the fretted A to be in tune.**

 

 

**What is going on here exactly?**

 

**Why is it the G string and the fretted A on both them?**

 

 

**I have a Epiphone Studio - does the same thing... but for $400...

Why am I spending thousands of dollars to have guitars that do not fully tune?**

 

 

I have these discussions with the sales reps at the Guitar store - they say it is in my head or "Supposed to be that way".

I feel they are sales motivated and will stray from the truth.

 

I want to spend my time playing my guitar and recording - not tuning and being frustrated.

 

I have played guitar for decades - it is not a fretting issue (how I fret the string). I have tested various fretting techniques and use a consistent fretting method - to test the tune - to ensure the data is the same.

 

What is the reality here?

What should one really expect form a high end guitar - Gibson or other?

At what point do you accurately say - "there is something wrong with this guitar"?

How much of this do I put on the store where I bought it (set up and point of sale expectations) -

and how much of this do I put on Gibson (Why aren't the guitars your distributors selling - perfect?)

 

I would like to here all opinions - but I was really hoping that someone from Gibson would respond.

 

I don't mind paying for quality - and I love the way Gibson guitars sound - but one would think the least you would expect from a high end guitar; is that it would tune properly?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards.

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Hello and welcome..

 

We get this a lot on here...

 

Usually whats happened is that the neck has moved a bit... You can check it with a long ruler... If there is a dip in the middle of the neck then the trussrod will need to be tweaked a bit...

 

If its not that then its usually either the bridge which need intonating (playing an open string and then at the 12th fret should be in tune) or its at the nut end where the nut slots are too deep...

 

And this is totally normal sadly... Guitars get shipped around and moved from one environment to another.. This causes the wood to expand or shrink slightly which is often the cause of this issue... Gibson definitely cant do too much about this.. The shop however really should do pro setups but don't have too.. Take the guitar to a respected luthier or guitar tech they should be able to sort this issue out easy (assuming nothing major is wrong).

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Hello Pickerson, welcome to this nice place in the web. [thumbup]

 

There's something wrong, so terribly wrong with all of your guitars, and unfortunately with all of mine, too: They don't have a zero fret. <_<

 

The only compromise is sanding down the nut grooves to the point just right before too low. Locking nuts of double-locking vibratos can be adjusted just as if they were a zero fret, but only if the radius exactly matches, or a sitar effect may occur with one or two open strings. I live with the latter.

 

Some years ago I wrote in a post that a world-wide law should demand a zero fret on guitars, dressed the same way as all the other frets. It is the only solution. A "zero fret nut" or a differently dressed zero fret are no substitutes for the real thing.

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Thanks for your reply :)

 

So - is it the Guitar shop - where I bought it - that is responsible for the state of the guitar at time of purchase?

 

What is a reasonable expectation from guitar shops?

They have quite a few guitars - should they all be set up perfectly at point of purchase - or before they hang them up for purchase?

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Thanks for your reply :)

 

So - is it the Guitar shop - where I bought it - that is responsible for the state of the guitar at time of purchase?

 

What is a reasonable expectation from guitar shops?

They have quite a few guitars - should they all be set up perfectly at point of purchase - or before they hang them up for purchase?

As I say.. Not something they have to do... A good shop however will check every guitar they sell out before its sold.. BUT just cos they don't do it doesn't necessarily make them bad, but they probably should. It probably helps in the long run with customer satisfaction.

 

And if its the nut, well Gibson can do something about that.. We get this complaint all the time about their nuts.. One of the reasons as Cap said they introduced a zero fret to stop these issues.. But a lot of guitar players don't like change so this is why they now offer a modern version of all their guitars as well as a traditional one with the standard nuts. (and yet people still complain :))

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...When I fret a note - I expect it to be in perfect tune...

Fret positioning on a guitar fingerboard is always - and I really mean ALWAYS - going to be a compromise.

If you don't understand this concept then Google Is Your Friend.

 

There is nothing a guitar MANUFACTURER - never mind a guitar shop - can do to provide 100% accuracy for every single note produced by every single string played on every single fret along the length of a guitar's neck. Several firms have come up with various inventive solutions to try to minimise this "problem" but they are all compromises.

 

Have a look at this one;

 

http://www.truetemperament.com/

 

Hope that helped.

 

P.

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Hello

 

What you have seems to be common on Gibson (and other medium scale length) guitars, especially the 335.

I remember Justin Hayward - guitarist in the Moody Blues - remarking on it re his 335, in an interview which I must have read over 35 years ago.

He also asked whether it was usual for that model to have this fault.

I bought a Gibson L4-S fairly recently and it has the same thing - you have to flatten the G string slightly to get the A on the 2nd fret to play in tune.

Am considering taking this guitar to an expert repairers as they must have dealt with the problem previously.

I do not think it is the shop's responsibility as the guitars undoubtedly came to them in that condition.

 

The older I get, the more I hear flaws in intonation up the neck on my medium scale guitars - i.e. my Gibsons.

So this is NOT in your head and IMO it doesn't have to be that way either, should be correctable to some extent.

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Well... Thanks for your opinions, advice and information.

 

I really hoped to hear from Gibson themselves on this here.

 

With the purchase of a guitar - at the shop where I bought it - comes a free set-up.

I took it in and spoke with the sales rep about this issue of all notes not being in tune on every fret.

 

His position was that - "All guitars are this way".

 

Well... if that is the consensus - I guess I will live with it.

 

But I am sure that my Gibson SG is near perfect on every single fret.

 

And my Taylor 528-e is most certainly absolutely perfect on every single fret.

When tuned precisely - every single fret will return an accurate note on the register.

 

 

So.. at least from my experience - it is not every single guitar.

 

I do understand how every guitar will not be the same.

Each is an individual piece of wood and will have its individual idiosyncrasies.

 

My expectation was - the more I pay for a guitar - the more precise things like this would be.

Intonation, tuning, staying in tune... would all get better the more you spend.

 

 

Once again - would be great to hear from Gibson themselves here on this.

 

Thanks again all.

 

Happy picking :)

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If you expect to hear from Gibson, your best bet is to contact customer support. They will get back to you usually the next business day.

 

As far as your expectation for perfect tuning in every fret of every string, that's not realistic. There are a few options to get you closer, but you will never be perfect. Frets wear, wood expands and contracts, you never push the same pressure twice... There are too many variables. If you're interested in a perfectly tempered instrument, you could look at True Temper guitars (as mentioned previously). You could also get a compensated nut, bridge, or both. You could also just pull your frets, fill in the fretboard and play fretless. Then you count on your finger position for being exact and accurate.

 

Why don't Gibson or Fender install the aforementioned fixes? Because the further away from the original designs they go, the more people don't buy their new instruments. A small search of the Internet will find dozens of arguments as to whether or not the little piece of plastic that says "Rhythm" and "Treble" should have been removed in 2017. Why is that? Because no one wants improvement, they want the original look at feel... Except they don't. But that's a discussion for another day.

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Fret positioning on a guitar fingerboard is always - and I really mean ALWAYS - going to be a compromise.

If you don't understand this concept then Google Is Your Friend.

 

There is nothing a guitar MANUFACTURER - never mind a guitar shop - can do to provide 100% accuracy for every single note produced by every single string played on every single fret along the length of a guitar's neck. Several firms have come up with various inventive solutions to try to minimise this "problem" but they are all compromises.

 

Have a look at this one;

 

http://www.truetemperament.com/

 

Hope that helped.

 

P.

 

Pip has it right.

 

True tuning is Pythagorean & mathematical. Its also provable. The node point on a vibrating string determines the true tuning.

It only works in ONE KEY at a time. So to get true tuning on your guitar when changing key, you would have to move your frets.

 

This used to be the case for lute players. They had to adjust for a key change by moving their frets.

 

We now use TEMPERED tuning. Pianos & fretted instruments have to. This is a system of compromise where all intervals are a 'best fit' to serve all keys.

 

This is why different keys can have their own 'character'. They are using notes whose intervals vary from those of other keys.

 

And my Taylor 528-e is most certainly absolutely perfect on every single fret.

When tuned precisely - every single fret will return an accurate note on the register.

 

Are you playing the Taylor in every key? Or just a couple of familiar ones?

Its impossible for a guitar to be built on Pythagorean principles.

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Are you playing the Taylor in every key? Or just a couple of familiar ones?

Its impossible for a guitar to be built on Pythagorean principles.

 

 

I could demonstrate it for you with the Taylor.

And it maters not the key.

 

You can simply tune it...

Take a tuner...

Play every single fret 1 at a time...

and every single note will register its true value on the tuner on each and every fret...

 

Not making it up...

 

Funny...

No mater what you post on the internet - no mater where on the internet ...

someone will always come along and simply can't deal with what you have to say.

 

"Its impossible"

 

OK ... like I said...

 

I have already thanked those who politely gave their opinion, advice and suggestions here.

 

And I will thank them once again...

Thank you.

 

For those who wish to dictate their view of the possible or impossible...

 

Good luck with that 0_o

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I could demonstrate it for you with the Taylor.

And it maters not the key.

 

You can simply tune it...

Take a tuner...

Play every single fret 1 at a time...

and every single note will register its true value on the tuner on each and every fret...

 

Not making it up...

 

Funny...

No mater what you post on the internet - no mater where on the internet ...

someone will always come along and simply can't deal with what you have to say.

 

"Its impossible"

 

OK ... like I said...

 

I have already thanked those who politely gave their opinion, advice and suggestions here.

 

And I will thank them once again...

Thank you.

 

For those who wish to dictate their view of the possible or impossible...

 

Good luck with that 0_o

 

Its not my view. [biggrin] I'm not that clever, and I dont need to be. Its all been done centuries ago and its borne out by physics. Like Pippy said,' the internet is your friend'. Did you look at the link he provided? I presume you did because you are seeking answers.

 

Try this one for good measure http://timberens.com/essays/tuning.htm

 

There are no personal facts. There are only facts. I have pointed to them and only tried to help, because you asked for help.

 

If you no longer want help and still dont have your answers, then that begs a further question...

[biggrin]

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There are no personal facts. There are only facts. I have pointed to them and only tried to help, because you asked for help.

[biggrin]

 

 

Yup... Figures...

You just can't let it go hey?...

 

I suggest you have a conversation with your psychiatrist - on your next session - as to why you feel that you must impose your opinion on others. On complete strangers as well.

And why you can't simply allow others and complete strangers to have their own opinion.

 

 

When an "opinion" is declared buy a deluded and disturbed person... this does not make it a "fact".... just because you say so.

And the reality - that offers the contrary view of what is stated as "fact", by the disturbed people of the world - sort of defeats anything you have to say about its actuality.

 

You guys should know this pretty well these days - as your highly disturbed president makes statement as "facts" all day long - when they are really just lies or opinions.

 

The reality of the tuning and results of the Taylor - washes away your deluded statements ... instantly.

Not much you can do about reality I'm afraid... But go ahead an keep trying if it makes you feel better O_o

 

-------

 

I'm really not interested in debating this any further with you - and will not respond to any more of your .... delusions.

I am looking for the block button as soon as I am done typing here.

 

I would book that next appointment early if I were you O_o

 

Thanks again to those normal people who responded normally.

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Yup... Figures...

You just can't let it go hey?...

 

I suggest you have a conversation with your psychiatrist - on your next session - as to why you feel that you must impose your opinion on others. On complete strangers as well.

And why you can't simply allow others and complete strangers to have their own opinion.

 

 

When an "opinion" is declared buy a deluded and disturbed person... this does not make it a "fact".... just because you say so.

And the reality - that offers the contrary view of what is stated as "fact", by the disturbed people of the world - sort of defeats anything you have to say about its actuality.

 

You guys should know this pretty well these days - as your highly disturbed president makes statement as "facts" all day long - when they are really just lies or opinions.

 

The reality of the tuning and results of the Taylor - washes away your deluded statements ... instantly.

Not much you can do about reality I'm afraid... But go ahead an keep trying if it makes you feel better O_o

 

-------

 

I'm really not interested in debating this any further with you - and will not respond to any more of your .... delusions.

I am looking for the block button as soon as I am done typing here.

 

I would book that next appointment early if I were you O_o

 

Thanks again to those normal people who responded normally.

 

Does anyone know how to block people here?

Thanks.

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