jimmiJAMM Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I mean looooooowwww. So low there's barely any distance between the fret board and the strings. Should I raise the tailpiece or is my nut riding too low? It's a '78 so maybe it just feels wicked extra low compared to my '07. Bar chords sound awesome but lead riffs are a tad difficult. The strings don't seem to bend with much gusto. Not only are the strings riding low but the frets are pretty worn down too. I understand that It's a vintage instrument but I'm not sure if this is normal after 30 years of play. Any suggestions? Thx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Several things influence string bending, such as action height, string gauge, fret height and technique. If your frets are too low, your fingertips contact the fretboard making it difficult for the skin to wrap around the string and grip it effectively. You can measure your fret height by placing the edge of a credit card across the top of the frets, then measure the gap between the fretboard and card with feeler gauges. Use the short edge of the card rather than the long edge. Measure your action like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sok66 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 First thing to do is check the relief. Either capo the first fret & hold down the third string at the last fret & see what the gap is, or, use an 18" straightedge. Easier to do the former than the latter. I like relief on Gibsons between .008" to .010". If it's in order, then check your string height. On Gibsons I like about 5/64" on the bass side, 4/64" on the treble side, measured from the top of the 12th fret to the underside of the 6th & 1st strings respectively. If it feels like it's changed recently, it can be from a variety of factors, but most likely temp & humidity changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmiJAMM Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Man, you guys really know your stuff. Thanks a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 First thing to do is check the relief. Either capo the first fret & hold down the third string at the last fret & see what the gap is' date=' or, use an 18" straightedge. Easier to do the former than the latter. I like relief on Gibsons between .008" to .010". [/quote'] By all means check the relief, but don't use this method. I wouldn't recommend using a straight edge across the full length of the fretboard. If you do measure relief with this method, you will find that your actual relief is much smaller. This is not the most accurate way of checking your relief ! There is no relief after the 12th fret. If there is no relief beyond the 12th fret, there is no point in looking for it. Measure relief between the first fret and the 12th with your strings at normal tension, and your guitar in the normal playing position. The truss rod has been designed to give relief in this area. The mid-point of the nut - 12th fret distance is the 5th fret. This is where you will find the deepest relief, but since we use a capo at the first fret, the actual mid point is moved up slightly to the 6th fret. With capo at first fret, and pressing each string in turn at the 12th, measure the relief at the 5th and 6th frets. A well set up guitar will show good consistency at these frets. Measure the clearance at the 4th and 7th frets. You will notice that the clearance is starting to become smaller, which confirms that the 5th/6th fret area is the deepest part of the curvature. We can test the accuracy of the 'straight edge across all frets' method. Place a capo at the first fret. Now press a string at the last fret. Look at the clearance you have along this string. Now, press the string at the 12th fret and check the relief at the 5th/6th frets - the real relief is much smaller ! Relief on a Gibson can vary between zero (some players prefer a straight neck) to around 12 thousands of an inch for the higher actions. http://mysite.verizon.net/jazz.guitar/guitarsetup.htm Quote : In general, this measurement is taken by measuring the distance between the bottom of the string and the top of the 6th fret while holding the string down at the 12th fret and the first fret. This is where the capo comes in handy - put it on the first fret so your hand is free to take the measurement. Using a feeler gauge of the desired height, in this example, 0.010, hold the low E string down at the 12th fret (with the capo on the first fret), and measure the distance between the top of the 6th fret and the bottom of the low E string. If the distance is greater than the desired relief, then you need to turn the truss rod clockwise (towards your right) as you're looking down the headstock towards the body of the guitar. If the distance is less than the desired amount, then you need to turn the truss rod counter-clockwise (towards your left) as you're looking down the headstock towards the body of the guitar. The basic rule is: Clockwise to tighten for less relief Counter-clockwise to loosen for more relief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explorer Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I was going to add some stuff but looks like you guys got it covered for the most part. Just keep in mind action is a player's preference, the action can be as low as you want it to be. I generally prefer slightly higher action to avoid fret buzz on the upper strings as I bend a lot. If its an older piece you just bought I would take it to a qualified luthier just to get a check up and check the relief and see whether it needs a fret dress or what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmiJAMM Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 Damn! Been reading up on this subject and I think my '78 is a "fretless wonder!" Is this possible? http://www.timeelect.com/lp-fretless.htm Were there SGs made this way as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sok66 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Enjoyed the article. After refretting, that LP Custom would become suddenly playable after all these years. The author is correct about some luthiers wanting to remove the binding on Gibsons. Not a good plan, as the neck then must be sprayed and it will inevitably look like crap and possibly feel even worse. Best way to refret a Gibson is to do it exactly as the article shows. Yes, SG Customs were done with fretless wonder frets into the 70s. I've never seen a Std done with them, but I'm sure it must have been done on a few. We in retail used to call them the "fretless blunder", as no one who bent string wanted to deal with them. But, no matter how much we begged Gibson would only do normal frets on a custom order basis. It became easier to farm them out to a local luthier for refretting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Thanks for the link - very interesting. No, your SG wouldn't have been fitted with these frets, but many Gibsons left the factory with fairly low frets due to 'enthusiastic levelling'. My 1979 SG's frets were quite low from new. Due to high nickel content, this wire is pretty hard wearing, but of course, years of playing takes it's toll, and frets have to be filed/stoned and re-profiled. This is why I asked if you could measure the fret height. The Les Paul Custom's frets had been clearly filed before - they were extremely low, and the binding 'nibs' had been also been filed. There were no divots on the fret surfaces. That refret left a lot to be desired. The fretboard should have been levelled - with the nibs removed, there was no excuse. Because the fretboard had not been levelled, the frets were uneven and had to be filed. The way the fret ends were finished was appalling. Now, when it comes to refretting a bound Gibson guitar, many people want the nibs to be preserved. This is what separates a Gibson from an ordinairy bound neck. The binding is unique. Frets can be fitted inside the binding, but it is time consuming. Some players prefer the frets to overlap the binding as it allows a wider vibrato, but it would affect the value of a vintage instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sok66 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Using a precision ground straightedge across the entire fingerboard is the only ACCURATE way to adjust relief. The craftsmen who designed & built the guitar in the first place did not ignore the region beyond the 12th fret and neither would any competent tech or serious player concerned with an instruments playability. The occasional presence of high frets in the upper register have to be taken account of and dealt with, or any adjustments made to the instrument will be a load of bollocks (B.S. in N. American) and lead to more problems. You can use the strings as a pseudo straightedge, but accurately measuring relief is then a fairly dubious proposition, as any means of measurement, such as a feeler gauge will deflect the string. A competent luthier would only use a string as a "quick reference" to ascertain the relative degree of relief in the neck, never to actually set it. See Dan Erlwine's learned writings on the use of straightedges in the Guitar Player Repair Guide for more on this subject. Removing nibs as part of a Gibson refret would have little or no impact on vintage value, particularly vs the practice of removing the binding and respraying the neck afterwards. If you decide to get your SG refretted, be certain the luthier knows how you want it done and be sure he doesn't plan on doing the binding removal / respray process. If that's the only way they'll do it, take it elsewhere, particularly a vintage instrument. It is possible to preserve nibs to a degree (some will inevitably be damaged in the process), but it's an extremely time intensive process. Unless the luthier is extremely precise, uneven gaps will be present between the frets and the nibs which can feel annoying under your fingers and is sloppy looking. Further, it's likely to be much more costly. We have seen one article where a lutihier removed the nibs, then glued on new ones using a cement that blended the material to a degree the joining lines couldn't be seen. Not worth the trouble IMHO. BTW, if you're having trouble visualising what we're referring to, compare the fretwork on a new Gibson vs a new Martin with a bound neck, where the fret ends extend over the binding. Would just conclude that for the modern player, using finger vibrato & bending strings the extra fret area afforded by nib removal is a boon and, particulalrly on new instruments, more comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmiJAMM Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 Thanks again, guys. Your informative responses have been a huge help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I think I might have mentioned this before, but there is no relief beyond the 12th fret...If you understood the physics of a vibrating string, you would know why this is the case. Yes, you can place a straight edge across the entire fretboard, and very convenient is is too, but it is not THE most accurate way of showing the relief. When Gibson state a particular amount of relief, it is not being measured with reference to a straight edge across all the frets ! Now if you have a Fender or PRS, they do recommend checking relief by using a straight edge across the entire fretboard. But this is not a Fender or PRS forum... Interesting video on Youtube showing a PRS set- up guru checking relief using the strings - not a machined straight edge in sight ! Yes, believe it or not, he's using the strings as a reference to 'actually set it' ! Yes, removing nibs affects value and makes the guitar look 'run of the mill' Just like all those thousands of far eastern guitars. We discussed this previously on the forum, and the consensus was that it makes a Gibson look like a cheap Chinese knock off. I keep an open mind myself. I weigh up playability vs originality. By the way, thanks very much but you don't need to lecture me about straight edges. I have been using one for 25 years on guitar set-ups and for years before that on engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sok66 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Since you'd doubtless agree strings vibrate the same on Fender, PRS & Gibson, and since Gibson (conveniently) refuses to publish relief or nut clearance specs, it would therefore not take a genius to surmise the other quality manufacturers' setup processes would do in a pinch, strightedges and all. (Game, set & match.... :( ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 http://www.everythingsg.com/images/gibson_truss_rod_2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sok66 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 That's a CMI Gibson brochure from the 60s IIRC. The address in Lincolnshire was Gibson's Sales & Marketing offices. For a retail manager, attending a meeting there was something like a visit to the IRS, dentist, proctologist, etc. Today's Gibson wouldn't be so bold as to actually publish an adjustment spec & procedure, if they did they'd have to meet it. :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 http://www.everythingsg.com/images/gibson_truss_rod_2.jpg Nice link Kurt. Maybe I could call it a slam dunk.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sok66 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 We have, or should have, learned something over the last 41 years. Some, however, continue to cling to old habits, folklore, misinformation, etc. The Flat Earth Society is still recruiting members. :D/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 You are right - some of us do continue to cling to the golden age of guitar manufacture. Try adjusting the neck of any modern guitar. Yamaha, Fender , PRS, Ibanez, Peavey and of course Gibson. You find that as you adjust the truss rod, the neck relef alters between - you've guessed it, the nut and the 12th fret. Some things do change with time, but some things stay just the same... So why do some recommend a straight edge (ideally the string) across the entire fretboard ? It's because it makes it easier to measure. But it exaggerates the amount of relief you have which is why I said that it's not the most accurate way. I always wanted to find out, and measure 'exactly' what was happening. I recommend everyone who can to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgTime Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 You are right - some of us do continue to cling to the golden age of guitar manufacture. Quite a few of us actually... Yeah.... a few.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Yeah.... a few.... So you have no interest in classic 1960's SGs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Sorry guys! I didn´t send the link to proof that A or B is right. I sent it because I considered it being the only thing Gibson ever said about it. Personally I think that all your descriptions will lead to a well adjusted guitar. And so will the link. And whoever wants to know should pick the way that suits him or her best. There are more ways to get from A to B. And I for example joined this forums to read different opinions. And that´s what I like about it. Greetings Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Very diplomatic Kurt - as always. Intentional or not, it vindicated my opinion that relief should be measured from the 12th fret. The truss rod was a Gibson invention, and I think they knew how it worked ! :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 To return to fret height, this is a useful way to do it. Cut narrow strips from old cards and mark their size. Try to build up a varied collection. Press a card firmly on the tops of the frets and feel for consistent, light drag with your 'feeler gauges'. This Strat has 1.25mm high frets which makes string bends very easy. These are new frets, and needed no filing to level them. Unlike some you might see, they don't look like a dog's been chewing on the fret ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sok66 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Nice lookin' work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Thanks. I think these will last a while longer than the original 50's style narrow frets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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