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Need help determining the model of my (1967?) Gibson 12 string acoustic


RJBAudio

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Hi all, I'm new to this forum but I've been playing guitar for about 20 years. I picked up a used Gibson 12 string acoustic guitar back around 1990 (for $150) but never really did much research about exactly which model it is. I've had it for almost 20 years now and still love playing it. One of the main reasons why I bought it initially was because despite its age, the neck was perfect and the action was great (and still is). The thing that sets it apart from most modern 12 string guitars is that it has a pretty small body with a neck that hits the body at the 12th fret and these factors give it a unique, crisp sound.

 

From my research on the web I was able to determine that it was probably made in 1967 (based on the serial number - 887606) but I can't seem to find the exact model. There are some that are similar (the B25) but still don't match (the 12/18 fretboard and the natural wood head color... not painted black). I made a web page which describes the guitar in more detail and includes a few pics as well as a sample recording of me playing mine (somewhat poorly). Scroll down the page past my classical guitar recordings to see my Gibson 12 string.

 

http://www.rjbaudio.com/guitar.html

 

Any insight into what model my guitar might be or even how much money it might be worth (but I don't plan on selling it) would be greatly appreciated. It would be nice to be able to give a solid answer the next time somebody asks me about it other than "I don't know but it is a Gibson, probably made in 1967." Thanks in advance.

 

P1010075.JPG

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Gibson made a 12/18 small bodied 12 string from 1969 to 1973. it was called the LG-12. This is not one though. The LG-12 was all natural with no back binding. Yours looks very much like a standard B25-12 about 1970, based on the shade of sunburst and the bridge. The bridge on yours was originally a "pin" bridge and may have twisted or tore up the top and the current bridge put on over the existing 'footprint' and a tailpiece added.

 

I'm really at a loss to explain yours. The serial number does suggest 1967 but the oversized belly-down bridge, the 12/18 neck, and the lack of headstock overlay place it closer to 1970. If I were to name it, I would call it a 1970 B25-12 oddball. Given that some attributes date it around the time the LG-12 was introduced (1969-70), they may have toyed with the idea of making the B25s similar but didn't follow through with it.

 

No idea as to value.

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...and as you can see in the photo' date=' it's also missing a bat-wing pickguard.

 

[/quote']

 

Actually, I have the original pickguard (bat-wing as described) but removed it when I first got the guitar because it was lifting at the edges. I'll probably put it back on someday but will have to make sure I find the best type of glue for that application. This information is in the link that I provided which also includes more pics and a recording.

 

Regarding the post by "ksdaddy", I wouldn't doubt that the bridge has been replaced. I came to similar conclusions as you, basically not being able to find a common model that matched all of the characteristics of my guitar (although I made sure not to use the bridge and tailpiece as a reference when searching for a match). It would be nice to know for sure (and see) what the original bridge config was. Thanks for the info anyway.

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Here's an LG-12 and will give you an idea of what your bridge originally looked like:

 

Gibson LG-12

 

I'm curious if there are any remnants inside of yours; the original bridge plate with pin holes perhaps? Unless of course that was replaced too.

 

I used a mirror inside the soundhole to see what was inside. Your assessment was correct because there is evidence of the 12 pin holes as well as two others spaced further apart and closer to the soundhole. I suspect that the new bridge is a homemade fabrication made to match the footprint of the original bridge.

 

Thanks for the link. The neck and fretboard of the LG-12 look identical to mine except for the bell shaped head piece that says LG-12. Like you said, the body of my guitar seems more similar to a B25 model due to the coloration and binding. I would guess that my guitar is some kind of a factory hybrid. It is still a bit puzzling how the neck (and bridge shape) so closely resembles a guitar made in 1970 but indicates an earlier fabrication date. I did notice, based on some info on the net, that the LG-12 model was made between 1967 and 1973 but there is no indication of what changes to the design might have occurred over those years.

 

I wonder now how much the sound might have changed after the bridge modification. I know that there are some drawbacks to the tailpiece/bridge design as compared to the original design using bridge pins. The other question is how much does the modified bridge swap hurt the value of the guitar if I ever went to sell it? I can only guess as to when the swap was made but I suspect that it may have been quite some time before I bought it in 1990 because evidence of the dip in the body and matching contour of the bridge plate was there when I got it which would indicate that the strings have been pressing onto the soundboard rather than pulling up on it for quite some time.

 

Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom and helping me try to determine the roots of my guitar. I'm still open to any additional comments from you or others if anything else comes up.

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After doing a bit more web research on the LG-12 I came across an interesting post describing a 1967 Gibson L-12 that may have similarities to mine but it is difficult to tell by the words used in the description. The link is here and it is the 3rd review (at the bottom of the page)...

 

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Gibson/LG-12/10/1

 

I'm still trying to fill in the blanks but it is a good learning process as well.

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When dealing with Gibson serial numbers from the 60s to about 1975, it will get you a year range at best and confusion at worst. They are sometimes contradictory and I've decided to let physical features trump serial number charts 100% of the time. I did read the review at Harmony Central and my guess is he has a guitar that was stamped with a serial number that would later date it to 1967 but I doubt he has an LG-12 made in 1967, prototype or not. Gibson didn't go to the big oversized belly down bridge on the B45-12 until 1970 so the LG-12 actually pre-dated that if indeed the model came out in 1969; I've read conflicting info and another source says the model didn't come out until 1970.

 

As to the repairs, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to how it may have changed the tone by switching the bridge. I would guess the pin bridge arrangement would sound better but that may just be the mass hypnosis talking (the same mass hypnosis that says non adjustable saddles sound better than adjustable, bone pins will turn a bad guitar in to a good guitar, and that rosewood from Brazil automatically makes a good guitar, regardless if the soundboard is made of T-111 siding). One thing to keep in mind with repairs is that we have evolved in the past 30-40 years. Years ago there was little regard for originality and there were some awful repairs done (Gibson was just as guilty as anyone back then too!). Guitars were repaired with little or no regard for original parts or at the very least replicas of them; bridges, pickguards, necks were replaced with what was available regardless of whether it was period-correct or not. Chances are the string tension had pulled your bridge forward and warped the top, which was a common occurence with pinned Gibson 12 strings and probably THE reason they went to a trapeze tailpiece in 1966. If that guitar showed up on a good repair bench nowadays there would be more of a tendency to replace the bridge plate in an effort to flatten the top some, and retain the pin bridge. There are aftermarket fixes out there like the Bridge Doctor, which I wouldn't put in any guitar if you held a gun to my head.

 

Most anything that changes the originality of a guitar will drop the value but you could spend a pail of money trying to put that one back to original with not much chance of recouping it.

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I'm also new to the forum, with a "similar" mission and maybe some added info. I have a "similar" guitar to the LG-12 in your link, but without the LG-12 imprint on the "bell". I bought it new in 1968 (Queens,NY).

It's gone through cycles of played constantly for about 20 years, played a little for about 10 years, resting for about 5 years and now played regularly again.

I emailed Gibson a while back and they "confirmed" serial# 893397 (no MADE IN USA stamped near the number as on "newer" models) as a 1967. They suggested sending detailed pictures in and they'd "TRY" to indetify it.

As for the repairs done.... A friend had bought a similar one about 6 months before I purchased mine. His bridge "peeled" almost as soon as he got it. He and the dealer sent it back to Gibson. When it was returned to him the repair looked much like RJB's except the bridge was located closer (about 5" which is where mine is located as well) to the "hole", If I remember correctly. I do remember his quote when I was buying mine... "SEND IN THE #$#&$#% Warrenty registration"..

I had to replace the old cardboard case about a year ago so I took the guitar to a local Guitar Center for case sizing and to see if their "experts" had any idea what type of guitar it is. I got a case but no info.

So, for the near future the guitar's gone back to being a very fine sounding, easy to play and fine looking instrument.

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I'm also new to the forum' date=' with a "similar" mission and maybe some added info. I have a "similar" guitar to the LG-12 in your link, but without the LG-12 imprint on the "bell". I bought it new in 1968 (Queens,NY).

It's gone through cycles of played constantly for about 20 years, played a little for about 10 years, resting for about 5 years and now played regularly again.

I emailed Gibson a while back and they "confirmed" serial# 893397 (no MADE IN USA stamped near the number as on "newer" models) as a 1967. They suggested sending detailed pictures in and they'd "TRY" to indetify it.

As for the repairs done.... A friend had bought a similar one about 6 months before I purchased mine. His bridge "peeled" almost as soon as he got it. He and the dealer sent it back to Gibson. When it was returned to him the repair looked much like RJB's except the bridge was located closer (about 5" which is where mine is located as well) to the "hole", If I remember correctly. I do remember his quote when I was buying mine... "SEND IN THE #$#&$#% Warrenty registration"..

I had to replace the old cardboard case about a year ago so I took the guitar to a local Guitar Center for case sizing and to see if their "experts" had any idea what type of guitar it is. I got a case but no info.

So, for the near future the guitar's gone back to being a very fine sounding, easy to play and fine looking instrument.

 

 

[/quote']

 

When you talk about the different bridge location I'm led to believe that perhaps your guitar has a different neck (a 14/20 neck which has the 14th fret at the body and 20 total frets) because there are several similar model guitars with longer necks than mine that have the bridge moved up further. I've read that there is a slight advantage to the shorter neck placing the bridge more optimally on the soundboard for the same body size but who knows how much of an actual difference it might make (for the same matter who knows how much the modified bridge/tailpiece on mine hurts the sound). Anyway, can you provide more info on your guitar including the type of finish, a description of the binding and if the bridge has the same exact shape and size as mine (just the outer dimensions). If there are other differences between yours and mine (especially the neck length) then it might be more likely that yours is a B25-12 model and not an LG-12 (from what I've read most LG-12 Gibsons had the shorter 12/18 fretboard configuration). But I think the B25-12 had several different bridge types over the years.

 

Thanks for contributing, it is interesting learning about different models and the history of these guitars. It makes me wonder if the bridge mod done to my guitar was done by Gibson or not.

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Sorry.. I forgot to put the fret config in. It's a 12/18 as on the lg-12. All finish items are as on the LG-12 that ksdad "linked" in. Body shape is same as lg-12, size is 19" long, 11 1/8" at the upper (below the frets) "bulge" & 14 5/16" measured just under the bridge.

Bat wing (black) pick guard. Adjustable bridge, white pegs. Kluson Delux tuners.

Basically, when you look at ksdad's link, that's my guitar aside from 2 details, 1- without the LG-12 on the "bell" and 2- I have a single black circle around the soundhole instead of the white on the lg-12 in the picture.

Gibson also suggested looking inside the guitar for telltale markings. When I changed strings a while ago I took them all off and poked around inside (penlight and mirror), couldn't find any identifiers.

Also, I measured the location of the bridge on mine and was trying "sight/proportion" measure for yours and the lg-12 in the link, as for my friends repaired one that was a long time ago, so.... I do remember that his guitar's bridge had so badly pulled up that there were cracks in the body below the bridge, the "face" of the guitar may have to have been repaired/replaced as well. I only saw his guitar once or twice after the repair.

Going through "older" forums there were mentions of a "student" version of a small body 12 string and a "studio" version, not many details for either one of those, and Jubilee 12 string (1969) you can see on EBAY. It's similar to the LG-12 but has Jubilee on the "bell" and a white "surround" on the back of the body.

Garysguitars (www.garysguitars.net) has some interesting pictures if you want to look over there. Someday I'll get around to sending the pictures to Gibson and see if they have any more info.

Thanks.

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There is the possibility that this is a Frankenstein.

 

Is it possible the neck and body did not leave the factory on the same guit tar?

 

That was my initial assumption (hybrid design) and I'll summarize the details.

 

The neck and fretboard definitely resemble the LG-12 almost exactly (except for the bell on the headstock because mine doesn't say LG-12 and is a two-layer piece which gives it a white outline). However' date=' the body is almost identical to that of a B25-12... same shape, same materials, same color, same binding including white/black stripe pattern, same rosette design... with the only difference being the saddle. I found a picture of a 1967 B25-12 and if you compare the body to my guitar you'll see that they are nearly identical.

 

Now there is some confusion about the large bridge plate that my guitar uses which matches that of the LG-12 design and could possibly date my guitar to 1970 but "stevef" claims that his 1968 LG-12 has the same bridge style (and btw Steve, most LG-12 models had the same black circle design as yours from what I've seen on the net, including one dated as a 1968 model).

 

So in summary it appears that my guitar seems to have a B25-12 body with an LG-12 neck and bridge (prior to the replacement mod). I'm confident that the only aftermarket mod is the bridge/tailpiece change. I have yet to see another Gibson with all of the attributes of mine after extensive searching.

 

[img']http://www.timbercreekguitars.com/consignment/Gibson%20B2512/Gibson%20B2512%20front%20[1024x768].jpg[/img]

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RJB. Not sure if your still checking this but... I noticed in my post the other day that I made a large mistake, my comment in the description, on my guitar, should have said NOT a bat wing pick guard.

Also if you're interested I found a good link for a description and pictures of b25-12s.

http://www.usedprice.com/dropdown.php?catname=vintage&mfrid=7618&typeid=464&increment=mfr....

Put in the b25-12 and take a look at the 1967 (or any other) model. It sure looks like the original picture you posted,

aside from the "trapeze" and the color?? The description on the sight calls the finish "sunburst" but.... I tried putting in the image..... I can't seem to get that function done.

I got my son to take a couple of pictures of mine and also "reopened" my request to Gibson to help identify it..

I also can't seem to get them to upload.

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I found another pretty interesting site, http://www.gruhn.com/catalog/ag.htm...

They, as of just before, have both the old lg-12 and a b25-12 in stock, with pretty nice pictures.

The b-25 looks alot like RJB's except for the trapeze bridge, finish even looks close.. It does not have the same thin bridge that's shown in the timbercreek guitar picture below (bridge looks like the lg-12).

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Steve, there's no doubt that yours is an LG-12 because I've seen many that look almost identical (only differences being that your saddle looks a bit darker and the lack of "LG-12" text on the head plate). I still stand by what I said above about mine having a combination of characteristics between an LG-12 (neck & bridge, prior to replacement with tailpiece) and a B25-12 (body). When those two parts are combined my guitar matches perfectly.

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Please don't believe them if they try to tel you it's a 1967 based on the serial number. If a President Obama coin was accidentally stamped 1966 you'd know it was a mistake. This is the same thing. I can't tell you what model (or NON-model) it is, but it was not made before 1969 and was more likely made in 1970 or so.

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KSdad. Thanks for the advice. I did buy the guitar new. I've hunted all over the house for the original bill of sale (It's in a shoe box somewhere). I'm pretty sure (I had to wait for quite a while to get the guitar, NOTE: I am still waiting for the hardcase I was supposed to get with it...) that I ordered it Christmas 1968. I was busy with school, draftboard, job, etc and had access to a hagstrom and a gretch silver anniversary, so I had something to learn on and play.

Just curious how you can determine it's 1969-1970 from the pictures?

 

Thanks again..

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Most of the info I found on this guitar was from the book "Gibson's Fabulous Flat Top Guitars". It goes into pretty good detail on dating some guitars (not all). One key thing that happened in 1969 (or close) was the omission of the wood (later fiber) headstock overlay. it was a trend that continued on many Gibsons through the 70s. Another is the radical change they made to the B45-12 in 1970, changing it to a 12 fret model and also adding that huge bridge like yours. It's doubtful any other models would use that bridge much sooner than that.

 

In the absence of a definitive serial number, one has to be a freakin' detective with Gibsons and always keep in mind that just because something is cataloged a certain way there can be huge changes on the production line... and catalogs sure ain't gonna get recalled!

 

And Gibson has a history of piecing together short runs of guitars made from leftover parts. I'm not describing frankensteins here, I mean little things like bridges or truss rod covers. And finishes can get weird too. Someone could have special ordered a green J45 in 1966 and then never picked it up; I believe Gibson would have just let that go through the sales/distribution system instead of stripping and refinishing it.... which would make for some interesting posts 40 years later! My late father bought a new J100 in 1985 and the catalog, literature, etc all specified a belly-up bridge. It came through with a J200 moustache bridge! Even Bozeman's history states there was some odd stuff happening in the late 80s; maybe an incorrect bridge or binding where it wasn't called for (or vice versa). It was all part of them getting their sea legs and makes for interesting conversation later on.

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Thanks,

I'll see what I can do about looking up the Gibson "book". I sent Gibson's (a guy named Roger Ball, if he's still there) Customer Service pictures, measurements, descriptions and etc. Let's see if they come up with anything. I know, remember the description of the fix my "friend's" old 12 string, that Gibson did "odd" stuff to their guitars, so...

I've read about another change that supposedly happened to their guitars around then (1969?), that was the use of Gibson Delux tuners instead of the Kluson Delux tuners (looks like the same thing with a different name on it).

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You're correct about the tuners, supposedly the change was from ones marked Kluson Deluxe to ones marked Gibson Deluxe, and I think that change went though in 1968. However my '69 12 string still says Kluson and that's likely because they made fewer 12 strings and may have had more existing stock.... so the 12 strings wouldn't have been changed until the old tuners were used up. Of course someone could have put a set of new style tuners on in October 1968 thereby making a liar out of me!

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KSdad... I got an email back from one of Gibson's Customer Service reps yesterday. His “assessment” “best guess” “guess" "whatever" is that the old guitar is a 1967 LG-12 (his quote was "it APPEARS to be a 1967 LG-12", that could mean it's really a 1968 Dodge Dart that just looks like a guitar).

He found the serial# entry in the old ledger book for the year 1967. The ledger book has a spot for "comments" next to the serial number. Good Old 893397 didn't have a comment, guess that means it was a "commercial grade" guitar, not a "custom". He had no other information on the guitar, I asked about it's "birthday", the high serial number should indicate a "late in the season creation", haven't heard back on that.

If you don't mind.. A little history from my side...

I remember that the store had the guitar on "the wall" when I was looking to buy. I wasn't very talented (I could barely play, I had been playing keyboards) so testing the guitar was an adventure (comparing to the hagstrom with "medium" strings and the gretsch with "light" and a couple of 3 chord tunes was basically all I could do).

He also had a couple of other 12s, a guild and a "bigger" Gibson (he had a few 6 strings including a Hummingbird).

I was buying the guitar with a musician's union card (price came down to a couple of bucks over wholesale) so the owner was not very happy, especially since the young lady who facilitated the deal had already hit this guy for the other 12 string (the one that had the bridge peek off and had to be rebuilt) not 6 months before (basically he was quite pissed, which explains the wait for the guitar and the "I'll get you a hard case for it in a week". As I said I'm still waiting for the hardcase).. He also limited what I could buy, "FORGET THE HUMMINGBIRD, FORGET THE OTHER 12 STRING", so the choice was the guild or the little Gibson. I didn't like the guild. So 893397 was my choice. He "jerked me" around for weeks, about picking up the guitar, even though I paid up front. It took an ANGRY call from the young lady's father (the musicians' union card owner) for me to even get the guitar out of the store. He offered me a shopping bag to take the guitar home in (and a get the "%&*" out of here and don't come back), I got him to give me a generic "cardboard" case that fit the guitar....

Thanks for listening, it brought back some fine memories (even though I wanted to take a baseball bat to that store clown's head)..

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