Flight959 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Unfortunately you can't close the stable door once the horse has bolted. I think if the American government made a move to further regulate firearms or even ban them then this will only make the situation worse.. If someone is bad, then they are bad...Door locks will only keep the honest people out... Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NHTom Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 yup, it gets deep.............. The problem is, it comes down to intent. A car running over people, fertilizer made into an explosive, box cutters and a jet.........all are horrible/evil items when the intent it to hurt people. By the same token, one of my shotguns is specifically built as a skeet shooting gun. I have shot competitively in the past all over New England. The INTENT of that gun is to shoot targets.........it's not built for killing......much like a car isn't. YES, it can kill if that is the intent.....much like a car can, but mine has had thousands of rounds through it and has never been used in a crime. The real issue in my mind is that we can't control intent. Since we have no crystal ball to tell if someone has bad intentions towards other people, then the natural reaction is to remove anything that can be used in that intent. Of course if we do that, then people like me who enjoy shooting sports are unfairly punished because of a very small handfull of pshchos...........and round and round and deeper and deeper it goes. I don't have any answer.......... All I know is that I wish we had that magic crystal ball so that the psycho's could be stopped before innocent people are hurt regardless of their choice of weapon. NHTom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 We regulate alcohol and driving pretty stiffly last time I checked. Licenses are required, cars have to meet certain requirements to be deemed road worthy, etc. Yes, and people still abuse them. and so are firearms regulated as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 and so are firearms regulated as well. Which is not the same as well-regulated (see what I did there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I don't expect to "win" a gun control debate on a guitar forum. I'm not going to convince you, and you sure are not going to convince me. I get it. But I do like to stick with facts. If you want to claim that gun control will prevent this type of thing there are only two you need to know. 1) firearms are not necessary for these mass killings. 2) firearms regulation does not prevent access to them by criminals. Those are facts. Gun control will not fix this. You can choose to believe otherwise if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I don't expect to "win" a gun control debate on a guitar forum. I'm not going to convince you, and you sure are not going to convince me. I get it. But I do like to stick with facts. If you want to claim that gun control will prevent this type of thing there are only two you need to know. 1) firearms are not necessary for these mass killings. 2) firearms regulation does not prevent access to them by criminals. Those are facts. Gun control will not fix this. You can choose to believe otherwise if you like. So it's a fact then that every other country in the world has it wrong, and only we have it right? I guess so, come to think of it, all those french guys with the boot of government on their necks. Same in England and Norway. So yeah, never mind. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 And this is where the discussion gets interesting.... not political mind you, but emotional. Americans have an emotional attachment to guns that doesn't respond to logic or data. Many people simply feel safer with them (even though the data doesn't seem to support it). Unfortunately this emotional reaction makes logic and data about as useless to the conversation as a knife in a gun fight. Funny you bring up knives in gun fights: This just happened in the county I live in. This is typical for the majority of self defense uses of firearms by civilians. most often a shot is never fired: http://www.gazettetimes.com/news/local/gun-beats-knife-in-lebanon-altercation/article_4278d7ee-079e-554e-8f82-91f5d066bd07.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Funny you bring up knives in gun fights: This just happened in the county I live in. This is typical for the majority of self defense uses of firearms by civilians. most often a shot is never fired: http://www.gazettetimes.com/news/local/gun-beats-knife-in-lebanon-altercation/article_4278d7ee-079e-554e-8f82-91f5d066bd07.html Yeah that kind of anecdotal evidence feeds the emotions and encourages people to believe in the idea of a gun providing protection. It's a very tempting thing to believe, and it does happen, but rarely. Have you looked at the statistics on this? I ask you this because I have tried to find data that supports the idea that guns make us safer and have yet to see it. Guns kept in the home are more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, criminal assault or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense. There is roughly one justifiable killing for every 40 murders, suicides or accidental deaths. I'd be happy to view any data that shows otherwise, but I have yet to find it. Article citations below if you are interested.... http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-guns-self-defense-charleston-20150619-story.html https://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/?_r=0 http://smartgunlaws.org/dangers-of-gun-use-for-self-defense-statistics/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 "but to kill people you don't even know, that have done nothing to you or your loved ones, to mow them down without remorse or care who you've killed" It happens all the time....it's called "War". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 They are like formal dining rooms loaded with table and a dozen chairs, china cabinet with full place settings for 18, spare chairs along the wall. Nobody really needs one, but having one makes them feel good, rich, wealthy, like they've made it. The one day a year you actually have to use it because all of your loser relatives come over and sponge a meal off of you is a bad day. You can show the person figures on the taxable size of their home, hvac and electricity costs, maintaining the room and it's contents, and they won't even entertain the notion that they don't need this thing. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
american cheez Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Just because you see everything as political doesn't mean everyone else does. Just because you can't participate in a conversation without wearing your political affiliation on your sleeve doesn't mean everybody else does. It's a problem that we can't discuss things rationally without politics. It's also a problem that weapons that are not allowed to be owned in any other civilized nation are not only allowed to be owned here, but there is no requirement to report something like the purchase of oh, 20 some over the course of a year by one guy. These problems don't know politics, they only know people. Two kinds of people died there. Young, strong, kids ready willing and able to potentially solve some of the problems my generation caused, like my kids. Older, 30+ years at their job, "...he had been getting ready to retire..." people, like me. It helps to remember that instead of what color t shirt you wear when you vote. rct you all prove my point. it's ok for anyone to discuss politics except for a few certain people, of which i am one. and what i see is people talking about gun control, and the 2nd amendment. that's politics. i can guarantee, had i expressed my opinion, regardless of what it might be, someone here, most likely you or one of your cronies, would have had this thread shut down with a quickness. so stop talking politics, or allow it. allowing it for some and not others is total b.s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 you all prove my point. it's ok for anyone to discuss politics except for a few certain people, of which i am one. and what i see is people talking about gun control, and the 2nd amendment. that's politics. i can guarantee, had i expressed my opinion, regardless of what it might be, someone here, most likely you or one of your cronies, would have had this thread shut down with a quickness. so stop talking politics, or allow it. allowing it for some and not others is total b.s. Most likely me or one of my cronies? Fukk off. Hows that for getting a thread shut down? Go tell somebody that mean old doosch guitar guy fukked you off. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I understand the fear about firearms but firearms are not the problem and gun control is not the answer. Nice, France: 87 killed with a truck Oklahoma city: 168 killed with a homemade bomb Paris: 130 killed with guns and bombs in a place where firearms are strictly regulated 9/11: 2996 killed with airplanes acquired with box cutters Those are just a few examples. The problem is there are all varieties of bad people out there and no matter what you try to restrict they always seem to find a way. knife, gun, truck, bomb, etc. FYI, since the Oklahoma City bombing, ammonium nitrate is now regulated, and anyone who purchases over 25 pounds must be registered and screened against a known terrorist list, and any thefts must be reported within 24 hours. Timothy McVeigh used over 2000 pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NighthawkChris Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I am not taking anyone's side here, but the thing that strikes me about this thread is that whether it talks about something "political" or not, I don't care. I really don't. The thing that bothers me is that we should be thinking about the victims here and stop blaming the law and all sorts of other crap WHY this happened like we have to blame something. People lost their family members, and that's the worst thing that happened during this event. I am not some high and mighty guy here, but I know how to be a civil human being and know when I am staring evil in the face. Point is, that no one knows the real deal here about this tragedy, and if you do, then best speak up to the authorities who are supposed to serve and protect our country to keep civility. It will only propagate the pain and suffering and further victimize yourself because of the occurrence at hand. I believe that you be the best person you can be, teach your children right, and lead by positive example to embrace your fellow man. Avoiding religious stuff here (oh man...) but I believe in the Golden Rule. Not necessarily karma, but we need to be better to one another, because nothing you or I could have done could have predicted or prevented this event. This is not a political view the way I see it. It is basic human decency! No point in crying over spilled milk. It is a absolute shame that these families who lost their loved ones are now part of some egregious political agenda concerning "gun control". While a lot of people here have made very good points on both sides (about our gun control issue) as we are good people here - I hope - it is not right to bicker over this and further victimize ourselves and those dealing with extreme loss. I commend those who come out to speak, but I do not think that argumentative approaches are going to make one iota of difference what happens tomorrow for the better. Again, the most genuine thing to do to make a difference is support those who need support for their loss. If we can't do that, then our words are futile. Again, not saying to discontinue - as you wish - the conversation, but what I am saying seems to make logical sense to me and it would be more heartfelt to say some nice things about how they will help those who are dealing with their toughest days right now and more to come tomorrow. I say this in the utmost respect for all members contributing to this conversation and many more wonderful topics to come in the future. Thank you for taking the time to read my "rant". I sincerely hope that I have contributed something positive to those who have taken their time to read this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bill Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 you all prove my point. it's ok for anyone to discuss politics except for a few certain people, of which i am one. and what i see is people talking about gun control, and the 2nd amendment. that's politics. i can guarantee, had i expressed my opinion, regardless of what it might be, someone here, most likely you or one of your cronies, would have had this thread shut down with a quickness. so stop talking politics, or allow it. allowing it for some and not others is total b.s. Just keeping this thread guitar oriented, I think they named a couple of guitar effects after you, the "Wah Wah" and "Cry Baby" pedals. I mean that in a nice way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 You know, every time we have a thread like this, I get banned for the weekend. I never get out of control, I simply take a conservative or historical perspective and I end up suspended or banned. Let's lock this thing up before someone gets butthurt and ends up suspended or banned from the Gibson Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 FYI, since the Oklahoma City bombing, ammonium nitrate is now regulated, and anyone who purchases over 25 pounds must be registered and screened against a known terrorist list, and any thefts must be reported within 24 hours. Timothy McVeigh used over 2000 pounds. I'm well aware. That's actually my point. People react to these tragedies and they start banning things that don't stop the violence. We have had numerous bombings in the US and around the world since Oklahoma City that did not involve large amounts of ammonium nitrate. The bad guys always seem to get what they need. You ban one thing, they use another. It's not the stuff, it's the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 People react to these tragedies and they start banning things that don't stop the violence. Please provide an example here of something that has been banned in the US in response to a tragedy as you assert. You imply that this banning is relatively common, so examples should abound surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 The “bad guys always get what they need” idea is weak because if we currently have good guys with guns then it is clear that they are not helping with problems such as mass shootings. There was no good guy that shot the bad guy. Only a bad guy. So if the good guy isn’t doing us any good, maybe try not to help out the bad guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Please provide an example here of something that has been banned in the US in response to a tragedy as you assert. You imply that this banning is relatively common, so examples should abound surely. Over the years many things have been banned. Handguns. High capacity magazines. Certain types of rifles. All of those things have been banned in places. No doubt you will say that's because it wasn't federal ban (although some were). But in other countries, firearms mass killings still occur on places where firearms are basically banned. Criminals and terrorists have a knack for finding them. And yes you're right most of the proposed bans have never gone into effect (thankfully). The reason for that is simple, most of the country does not support banning weapons. If people did it would be the law. There is always a push to ban stuff after these incidents and then when the politicians start counting their votes, it just goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 But in other countries, firearms mass killings still occur on places where firearms are basically banned. Criminals and terrorists have a knack for finding them. Like Australia and the UK with some of the lowest gun death rates per capita in the world you mean? Yes, they still occur there, but rarely. I'm sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative. I would absolutely love to be wrong here and live in a safer gun-protected America. I just don't see where that is reality. The numbers just don't support it. I am more than willing to look at the data if someone will provide it. Look at this graphic.... If we don't have a gun problem, what do we have? Are you telling me Americans are just that much more violent than others? You believe gun availability has nothing to do with this? I don't see how that is logical or supportable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 The "bad guys always get what they need" idea is weak because if we currently have good guys with guns then it is clear that they are not helping with problems such as mass shootings. There was no good guy that shot the bad guy. Only a bad guy. So if the good guy isn't doing us any good, maybe try not to help out the bad guy. How does the fact that no civilians were able to stop this one individual have anything to do with the fact that criminals don't seem to have trouble findings tools to commit crimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 How does the fact that no civilians were able to stop this one individual have anything to do with the fact that criminals don't seem to have trouble findings tools to commit crimes? Because if you having a gun doesn’t do any good, then selling guns to bad guys doesn’t make much sense Personally I love shooting guns. It’s awesome. I was just pointing out the flaw in that logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Like Australia and the UK with some of the lowest gun death rates per capita in the world you mean? Yes, they still occur there, but rarely. I'm sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative. I would absolutely love to be wrong here and live in a safer gun-protected America. I just don't see where that is reality. The numbers just don't support it. I am more than willing to look at the data if someone will provide it. Look at this graphic.... If we don't have a gun problem, what do we have? Are you telling me Americans are just that much more violent than others? You believe gun availability has nothing to do with this? I don't see how that is logical or supportable. You still haven't refuted anything I have said. You also have not explained how more strict gun control would change violent crime in America. There are well over 300 million firearms in America. You can't confiscate them all, and the ones you could confiscate would not be the ones the possessed and used by criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 You still haven't refuted anything I have said. You also have not explained how more strict gun control would change violent crime in America. There are well over 300 million firearms in America. You can't confiscate them all, and the ones you could confiscate would not be the ones the possessed and used by criminals. By making guns illegal, people can’t walk into a store and buy them. If you can’t walk into a store and buy them, you have to do something illegal to get them. If you have to do something illegal to get them, you will be arrested if the police find out. If you are incarcerated you will not be shooting people in public. It is so obvious that it seems patronizing to explain it to you, which is probably why nobody did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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