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Henry blames guitar stores for financial woes...


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Not really. I was raised to campaign for your leaders, vote, and if the outcome is not what you wanted you shake hands and support the winner. Today’s society is full of sore losers that will whine if

It's not my fault my company has financial problems. Let me see, who can I point a finger at?   Oh, okay, how about all those successful music dealers I pushed away with unrealistic stocking demand

He is right. His point about selling to women as well...   He needs places like Russo's, Gruhn, Rudy’s, etc to sell Gibson. NOT Guitar Center and Sam Ash. He should protect them and stop the big box

Just because people aren't buying Gibson acoustics in your county's brick &mortar store, doesn't mean folks aren't buying them online.

 

There are two issues with online purchasing when it comes to Gibson. Gibson didn't allow their dealers to put the guitars on their website, look at Fuller's or Russo no new Gibson's on their site.

The other thing is you have to play them before purchasing, the Gibson acoustics vary too much in sound and feel even when it's the same model. I bought my Original Jumbo from Russo, but Scott was a great help over the phone. It was exactly what he told me on the phone. Try that with Gibson Online Shop ;-). Shipping back and forth is not what I want to do.

Edited by J45fan
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I have yet to understand why so many people who can't stand Henry and his Company spend so much time on his Forum.

 

It's weird.

 

I have thoughts about how the company that makes my favorite acoustics could be more successful. I'm not sure there's a more appropriate venue to have the discussion.

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I have yet to understand why so many people who can't stand Henry and his Company spend so much time on his Forum.

 

It's weird.

 

I love Gibson and I don't want them to fail. I don't give a good flying crap about Henry, him and his retail model are both replaceable, the guitars are not.

 

rct

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I love Gibson and I don't want them to fail. I don't give a good flying crap about Henry, him and his retail model are both replaceable, the guitars are not.

 

rct

 

What makes you think Henry is replaceable? If a new owner is a liquidation company or a hedge fund or an alternative investment firm (like Bain Capital) and replaces Henry’s ownership, I suspect the products they produce would clearly not be the standard of Henry’s products. Or, do you think otherwise? Please clarify...

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

Edited by QuestionMark
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What makes you think Henry is replaceable? If a new owner is a liquidation company or a hedge fund or an alternative investment firm (like Bain Capital) and replaces Henry’s ownership, I suspect the products they produced would clearly not be the standard of Henry’s products. Or, do you think otherwise? Please clarify...

 

Whatever Henry, or whomever comprises his team, whatever they are doing is apparently not working, right? Why is anyone discussing organizing the bond holders or swapping debt for equity if they are so good at...making guitars?

 

Something has to give. You can't make great guitars and not run the business. Running the business doesn't have to mean not making great guitars.

 

I'm not sure why you think Henry is not replaceable. Please clarify that, and maybe I'll learn something about how he does things that I don't know.

 

rct

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Henry seems to keep the business side of the business separate from the craftsmanship/lutherie aspect of the business. He has done this from the beginning of his ownership. Not doing this is what did Norlin’s ownership of Gibson in. Norlin mixed the business side in with the craftsmanship/lutherie side of making guitars by imposing cost savings decree on the lutheries who made the guitars. Ie. Why not just have one square shouldered shape for most guitars. Just have a J45 use the same shape as the SJD, the J40. Make them all have long scales. No player will know the difference and it will all save costs.. Add double X bracing and a volume to cut expensive warrantee returns. No one will care. Outsource all Epiphones to overseas and just put the stoic Epiphone name on generic Japanese made guitars to save costs.. No one will notice they are crap. (It took Epiphone 35 years to work out of that one.). Etc etc.

 

The first things Henry did was hire great luthiers because most were gone from Gibson when Henry purchased its remains. And, then he kept out of their way in the shops that made the actual guitars. And, he set out to rebuild the reputation of Gibson guitars by doing this. And, he set out to rebuild Epiphone again into a legitimate brand by having them be authorized copies of Gibson’s and then to regain their original standalone Epiphone lineage heritage, still by outsourcing but by having a manager stationed at every overseas outsourced so any outsourced factory became an Epiphone factory to instill high quality control of every instrument.

 

One can only imagine what a cost conscious hedgefund manager or a liquidation manager or a Bain Capital Company would do to cut costs of a Gibson or the Epiphone brand guitars. It could be Norlin all over again. Or worse. Hedgefund managers, Liquidation managers, Bain Capital type alt investment companies generally operate by stripping a company of every operating cost it can at the expense of their products and services, and then selling off the name of the brand to someone who thinks they are buying a company’s greatness. When it and it’s pruducts//services and labor are generally a shell of what they once were. Henry has been a smart owner and CEO in many ways, a major one being he has kept out of the Gibson workshops to let the. Utgiwra there build high quality guitars and he put a presence in Epiphone’s outsourced workshops, but only in a brand building quality control way.

 

You asked. I provided you the answers. Hope it helps your understanding.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

Edited by QuestionMark
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That stuff is all good. But making great Epiphones and terrific acoustics in Montana is one thing, running a healthy company is another.

 

Gibson does not have a problem with great guitars, in my long life with guitars they have always been great guitars and I wouldn't live in a house without at least a couple. I'd have a couple acoustics if I found one with a neck I like, but that's my problem.

 

If making great guitars kept a company afloat Gibson would be awash in cash. But it isn't enough. The guy running the business is not doing the business a service if he steps back and let's the technical aspects take care of themselves by having qualified people do that superbly while he does...what? It is then his job to run the company, which it would appear to be not what he is doing.

 

The 80's pumped out an MBA every ten minutes, there are more than enough people qualified to run a company that are successfully doing just that. It is possible to do both, run a business and make outstanding Widgets, and if one half isn't holding up their end they need to change something.

 

A consequence of not managing the money it takes to manage a company is having to get that money from somewhere, and eventually the cost of getting that money will include somebody that owns that money taking an interest in the company for themselves. There is only one reasonable conclusion as to why that would be, and it isn't a good one no matter how it is spun.

 

rct

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... If a new owner is a liquidation company or a hedge fund or an alternative investment firm (like Bain Capital) and replaces Henry’s ownership, I suspect the products they produce would clearly not be the standard of Henry’s products. Or, do you think otherwise? Please clarify...

 

 

RCT-you still haven’t responded to this. Yet, I answered your requested question. I understand you are very downsnd doomsday on Henry’s business handlings while I trust his entrprenurial skills, track record, and accomplishments that it will work out okay..and on that we disagree. But, you still haven’t answered my above question. So again, I ask, please clarify.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

Edited by QuestionMark
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If a new owner is a liquidation company or a hedge fund or an alternative investment firm (like Bain Capital) and replaces Henry’s ownership, I suspect the products they produce would clearly not be the standard of Henry’s products. Or, do you think otherwise?

 

If the current business model is not sustainable then I suspect that yes, the products they produce would change, probably for the worse/cheaper.

 

It's also quite possible that vulture capitalists could continue with the same great guitars while cutting the rest of the stuff that has gotten them where they are today, assuming those are the roots of their financial problems.

 

What good is not having a liquidation company or a hedge fund or an alternative investment firm run Gibson up into some form of good health if the alternative is no Gibson?

 

And I don't assume any sort of Bain type ownership would be good. It could be good, just like it could be good as it is now, but apparently isn't.

 

rct

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I can’t imagine another owner would be as quality conscious as Henry has been, unless Chris Martin took over Gibson and Epiphone, which is not likely. I fear Bob Taylor, if he were to take over both Gibson and Epiphone would implement cost saving things like bolt on necks that run contrary to Gibson/Epiphone heritages and then would keep prices no different. But, neither is a likely successor...and, Henry seems to have a plan in place to keep Gibson and Epiphone going and transform the entire company while retaining ownership control as he has been able to in the past , so let’s hope his plans work out!

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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I have yet to understand why so many people who can't stand Henry and his Company spend so much time on his Forum.

It's weird.

Seems like it's fairly simple.

 

You can easily love the instruments and enjoy sharing information & learning more about them on this forum.

 

At the same time, you can be not-in-love with some of the decisions Henry & Co. has made over the years. When a topic like "Henry blames guitar stores for financial woes" comes up, it opens a number of past wounds.

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RCT-you still haven’t responded to this. Yet, I answered your requested question. I understand you are very downsnd doomsday on Henry’s business handlings while I trust his entrprenurial skills, track record, and accomplishments that it will work out okay..and on that we disagree.

 

He said Trump would never be President too.

 

His future reading skills are lacking.....

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Seems like it's fairly simple.

 

You can easily love the instruments and enjoy sharing information & learning more about them on this forum.

 

At the same time, you can be not-in-love with some of the decisions Henry & Co. has made over the years. When a topic like "Henry blames guitar stores for financial woes" comes up, it opens a number of past wounds.

 

It just seems to be in bad taste to do it on HIS Forum.

 

And, you guys should take note he's allowing you to do it.

 

So far.

 

Just saying.

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Ha! Surely you can't think Mr J pays any attention whatsoever to this forum! I do believe he has bigger fish to fry.

 

Not HIM...

 

His people.

 

You won't badmouth other Companies on THEIR Forums.

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One thing remains unclear to me - at what point does sharing experiences, giving opinions, or offering ideas become badmouthing? I assume, as I read, that there's a line to cross somewhere, but is there any reasonable consensus as to where it actually lies?

Edited by OldCowboy
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An important part of running a multi-national, distributed corporation is knowing what is going on in your market. (Even the bashers would have to agree with that.) Does Henry read this forum? Probably not. He probably has someone do it for him. Someone here suggested Henry work a shift at a music store. In this century there are things called "mystery shoppers". Last century, you'd have someone you trusted buy a beer for a salesman at one of your stores and pick his mind. These, and other devices are small parts of data gathering to compile periodic reports generally called "Business Intelligence". One important piece is what your direct competitors are doing. Another is, obviously, end consumers as well as your distributors. A third is government regulation and tax developments. Suppliers are another chapter your purchasing people help write. You can be sure Henry doesn't get his insights into what Martin is doing by reading silly articles in Trade Journals. And he didn't find out that young people starting out with the guitar had a high drop out rate last week by reading it here. He knew it before he bought the company. Some of us buy $150 capos almost like we use to buy toys, to see if they improve our playing. Some companies try out Roto-tuners to see if there are any segments of the market (Japan, 16 year olds, electrics) that would buy them. Are they viable, or just toys to be discarded by the R&D department? Do you go a step further and buy a small company that makes a unique product, like Roto-tuners, to see if you can use your corporation's market presence to grow it? Some here bash Gibson because they think they can run the company better. Some because they think it was Gibson that put their Mother and Father's music store out of business. Some resent the high prices. Some the necks. Some the availability of neon pink J45s. Some the lack of diversity in the acoustic or electric guitar product lines. Some feel there is too much. Some rail about the plastic end pins. Some the lack of a strap button in their favorite location on the heel. Some get upset over "sustainable" woods. It seems we have enough business acumen gathered here to start up our own guitar company. Henry, if you're reading this - you brought this on yourself.

 

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Gibson can blame who ever they want.. I didnt put them in this posistion.. and Im certainly not going out of my way to buy more Gibsons just because there in a pickle with creditors. there are plenty of Used Gibsons in the market place to be had at alot cheaper prices than new ones.. more than theres been in a long time.. . why are they in so much debt? ... ..

 

I guess the question is... what are we as customers suppose to do? what would Gibson like us to do?

Edited by slimt
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Discussion Forum.

 

My apologies.

 

I'm pretty well known for not dabbling in the politics here, I'm all about the Fenders. Martins. Gibsons. If I want to do politics I troll Fox News comments sections, where I never talk about Gibsons.

 

I accept your apology.

 

I also offer my own apology for offending you in any way. It is a discussion forum, we are discussing stuff. That stuff seems to be construed as bashing and hating when it really is, to me, people that love Gibson and are just as distressed as you at their current condition as it is reported.

 

This current condition could be all bee ess too, they're a private company and don't have to tell us anything.

 

If they or the mods told me to stop talking about it I certainly would, and I'd apologize to them in public about it.

 

rct

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