12 String Intonation

[drathbun]

I made the adjustments I could to the new Humminbird 12 string. I installed a strap button (position #5 of course), gave the truss rod a 1/4 to add a little more relief (I strum hard) and widened one of the B string nut slots and filled it with graphite as it was pinging quite a bit.

 

However, even with all those adjustments, I'm still not satisfied with it because of some fairly noticeable intonation problems. Since the saddle isn't compensated even for the B strings, I'm not surprised it has issues. But I was very surprised that the B strings were even out of tune with each other. If I tuned them the same and then played the second or third fret, the strings were both sharp but even out of tune with each other. All of the strings were out when fretted at the 12th fret.

 

So I sent it back to my guitar tech Jim and asked him to see what he could do about compensating the saddle.

 

I'm wondering if any other Gibson 12 stringers here has similar issues. Did you have the saddle compensated? Did it come with a compensated saddle? My Taylor 12 had a compensated saddle (bone from Bob Colosi) and the intonation wasn't perfect but perfectly tolerable, unlike this Gibson.

 

Jinder? What say you?

[j45nick]

"Tuning" is the most common song anyone plays on a 12, and perhaps the hardest to learn. I suspect part of the intonation/tuning problems you are seeing is a function of the inevitable slight differential string bending of paired strings in the same octave (as well as those an octave apart) when you fret them.

 

I've always just tuned each string as closely to pitch as possible in the open position, and lived with the issues up the neck. It just sort of increases the chorus effect.

 

Otherwise, it will drive you nuts.

 

12-strings aren't necessarily a good fit for really pitch-sensitive people.

[zombywoof]

"Tuning" is the most common song anyone plays on a 12, and perhaps the hardest to learn. I suspect part of the intonation/tuning problems you are seeing is a function of the inevitable slight differential string bending of paired strings in the same octave (as well as those an octave apart) when you fret them.

 

I've always just tuned each string as closely to pitch as possible in the open position, and lived with the issues up the neck. It just sort of increases the chorus effect.

 

Otherwise, it will drive you nuts.

 

12-strings aren't necessarily a good fit for really pitch-sensitive people.

 

 

12 string players spend half their time tuning and other half playing out of tune.

[BigKahune]

.

Yes, I've had some problems like you describe on both 12 strings and 6 strings.

 

There's been times when I got a good deal on a 12 because the owner was frustrated with tuning and/or intonation. These guitars typically turn out to be in need of nut slot work. It's easier to nail down on a 6; 12 complicates things. Your two B strings not being in tune with each other fretted on 2 or 3 is a clue - slightly different slot heights, and the higher one is stretching more making it sharper than the other. This can occur on any of the slots and cause the fretted strings to be out of tune in some chord forms. With 12 strings it can take a while to figure out which slots need adjusting.

 

I got a used 1995 J-100 Xtra 12string 3 years ago - tuning problems, frustrated owner, good deal. It had a straight saddle so I ordered a B-compensated saddle from Colosi, installed it, but still had problems much like your 12'bird Doug. I took out my nut files and started looking at the slot heights. After a coupla of hours or so adjusting (not too much at a time, and watch the angle) and testing I got it settled in. No more problems. Once you've worked a couple of these problems out it becomes pretty routine.

 

Once I have a 12 dialed in it takes no more re-tunes the any of my 6 strings.

 

BTW, I've got a coupla Taylor 12s that came from Taylor with fully compensated saddles - each string compensated for length and height.

 

I hope your tech gets it figured out for you.

 

.

[drathbun]

.

Yes, I've had some problems like you describe on both 12 strings and 6 strings.

 

There's been times when I got a good deal on a 12 because the owner was frustrated with tuning and/or intonation. These guitars typically turn out to be in need of nut slot work. It's easier to nail down on a 6; 12 complicates things. Your two B strings not being in tune with each other fretted on 2 or 3 is a clue - slightly different slot heights, and the higher one is stretching more making it sharper than the other. This can occur on any of the slots and cause the fretted strings to be out of tune in some chord forms. With 12 strings it can take a while to figure out which slots need adjusting.

 

I got a used 1995 J-100 Xtra 12string 3 years ago - tuning problems, frustrated owner, good deal. It had a straight saddle so I ordered a B-compensated saddle from Colosi, installed it, but still had problems much like your 12'bird Doug. I took out my nut files and started looking at the slot heights. After a coupla of hours or so adjusting (not too much at a time, and watch the angle) and testing I got it settled in. No more problems. Once you've worked a couple of these problems out it becomes pretty routine.

 

Once I have a 12 dialed in it takes no more re-tunes the any of my 6 strings.

 

BTW, I've got a coupla Taylor 12s that came from Taylor with fully compensated saddles - each string compensated for length and height.

 

I hope your tech gets it figured out for you.

 

.

 

Thanks, BK! I was already suspecting one of the B string nut slots due to it pinching. My guitar tech is top notch, so if anyone can get it right, Jim can. I'll know in about a week.

 

I was thinking I might get a compensated bone saddle from Bob first and then send it for fine-tuning to Jim, but those saddles are now out of reach as Bob's shipping is now $25 US for a $28 US item. That makes it $67.90 CDN before import duties. Ouch. Plus, the saddle on the guitar is already bone, so I think I'll see what Jim comes up with.

[OldCowboy]

"Tuning" is the most common song anyone plays on a 12, and perhaps the hardest to learn. I suspect part of the intonation/tuning problems you are seeing is a function of the inevitable slight differential string bending of paired strings in the same octave (as well as those an octave apart) when you fret them.

 

I've always just tuned each string as closely to pitch as possible in the open position, and lived with the issues up the neck. It just sort of increases the chorus effect.

 

Otherwise, it will drive you nuts.

 

12-strings aren't necessarily a good fit for really pitch-sensitive people.

When I was a young'n and playing 12-string for the first time, my luthier explained the issue's resolution by telling me "...with the amount of sound coming out of that box, anyone listening won't notice."

[zombywoof]

You might check with LMI on a saddle.

[zombywoof]

When I was a young'n and playing 12-string for the first time, my luthier explained the issue's resolution by telling me "...with the amount of sound coming out of that box, anyone listening won't notice."

 

Leo Kottke once remarked that. although he knew most would think him crazy, he preferred 12 strings with the suspended ADJ saddle. In his opinion they increased sustain and the amount of attack you heard. He likened the ADJ bridge to the effect of an arched top on a guitar. I tell you where he was right was in his preference for wood saddles. I switched the saddle on my B45-12 to bone but am thinking of going back to the original. I kind of liked the sound better. Go figure.

[Jinder]

My Bird 12 intonates well, but had some issues with a binding nut which caused havoc initially. Jim will nail it for you I’m sure, but perhaps a compensated bridge will help screw it all down perfectly.

 

Mine does need retuning when capoed, but then again it’s a 12er so it’s to be expected!

[PrairieSchooner]

The short answer: 12's by their nature are a b!tch. I have to tinker with my Guild every time I play it and after every capo change; I've just learned to accept it.

 

Intonation on my HD-28 was off when I got it. I contacted Martin and asked if widening the saddle slot and adding a compensated saddle would void the warranty. They replied that if I was "offended by normal intonation" it was OK for me to have this done. Steve Tripplet did it; wonder whatever happened to him?

 

My J-200 came with a compensated saddle but the intonation on it is very touchy anyway. To use a cliché, it is what it is.

[Jinder]

I contacted Martin and asked if widening the saddle slot and adding a compensated saddle would void the warranty. They replied that if I was "offended by normal intonation" it was OK for me to have this done.

 

Wow...that’s kind of a d*ck comment from Martin. If I bought a high end guitar that needed extensive modification to intonate properly I’d be expecting an apology and an offer to fix it under warranty, not a catty remark like that!!

[drathbun]

My Bird 12 intonates well, but had some issues with a binding nut which caused havoc initially. Jim will nail it for you I’m sure, but perhaps a compensated bridge will help screw it all down perfectly.

 

Mine does need retuning when capoed, but then again it’s a 12er so it’s to be expected!

 

Have you tried a G7th Heritage capo with the 12 string ART pad? I've found it is the only capo that works perfectly on a 12 string.

 

[OldCowboy]

Leo Kottke once remarked that. although he knew most would think him crazy, he preferred 12 strings with the suspended ADJ saddle. In his opinion they increased sustain and the amount of attack you heard. He likened the ADJ bridge to the effect of an arched top on a guitar. I tell you where he was right was in his preference for wood saddles. I switched the saddle on my B45-12 to bone but am thinking of going back to the original. I kind of liked the sound better. Go figure.

Seems reasonable, depending on your sound preference. I prefer ceramic on a small-body Gibson 12 for the sake of enlivening the thing, but a B-45 is usually VERY powerful.

[Jinder]

Have you tried a G7th Heritage capo with the 12 string ART pad? I've found it is the only capo that works perfectly on a 12 string.

 

 

Thanks Doug, I’ll order one of those asap! Would LOVE to have a capo that works properly with the 12.

[drathbun]

Thanks Doug, I’ll order one of those asap! Would LOVE to have a capo that works properly with the 12.

 

Buy a wide-neck with the regular ART pad and order an extra 12 string ART pad for it (they are only $16). They a dead simple to swap out and you can use the capo with all your guitars. It works for my Martin 000-28vs 12 fret all the way up to fret 9, works on my Strat and works on my Gibson 12 string and everything in between. Even my nylon!

[PrairieSchooner]

I guess I should break down and try one of those new high falutin' 12-string capos. Frankly my Shubb 12'er works pretty well, but the best I've ever found is this: ancient flea market capo and homemade aluminum shim. It's a little cumbersome but works great even high up the neck...

 

[blindboygrunt]

Thanks Doug, I’ll order one of those asap! Would LOVE to have a capo that works properly with the 12.

 

Can you take a snapshot of your face when you see the price please ? 😂

[Jinder]

Can you take a snapshot of your face when you see the price please ? 😂

 

I was GOBSMACKED at the price!! I don’t have a pic, but imagine a tall version of the hairy bloke out of The Magic Numbers getting smacked in the gob and you’re halfway there...

 

I’ve noticed G7 do a revised 12er version of their Newporter capo with the same stepped pad as the Heritage for £24. I’d love to drop the £130 on the Heritage but I’m just not in that airspace, especially with 7 kids and Christmas coming!! I’ll go for the Newporter and see how I fare.

[drathbun]

I was GOBSMACKED at the price!! I don’t have a pic, but imagine a tall version of the hairy bloke out of The Magic Numbers getting smacked in the gob and you’re halfway there...

 

I’ve noticed G7 do a revised 12er version of their Newporter capo with the same stepped pad as the Heritage for £24. I’d love to drop the £130 on the Heritage but I’m just not in that airspace, especially with 7 kids and Christmas coming!! I’ll go for the Newporter and see how I fare.

 

LOL! Yeah, they ain't cheap!

[Versatile]

Welcome to the world of 12 string shenanigans.....

 

Expected issues with the lower octave doubles.....and not disappointed.....:blink:

 

More surprise with the 2 unison 1st and 2nd's....particularly the B's.....

 

Problems much worse with my preferred drop C# and C tunings.....

 

Do most songs in 'open' position in an attempt to minimise tuning issues....yet still have them....including 'ear vs electronic tuner' disparities....

 

Tried many capo's....Dunlop, Shubb etc

 

Now often use a Thalia....very expensive, beautifully crafted, with a special thick '12 string' rubber insert

 

Or grab a Dunlop aluminium 6 string capo which works 95% as well....

 

V

 

[drathbun]

Welcome to the world of 12 string shenanigans.....

 

Expected issues with the lower octave doubles.....and not disappointed.....:blink:

 

More surprise with the 2 unison 1st and 2nd's....particularly the B's.....

 

Problems much worse with my preferred drop C# and C tunings.....

 

Do most songs in 'open' position in an attempt to minimise tuning issues....yet still have them....including 'ear vs electronic tuner' disparities....

 

Tried many capo's....Dunlop, Shubb etc

 

Now often use a Thalia....very expensive, beautifully crafted, with a special thick '12 string' rubber insert

 

Or grab a Dunlop aluminium 6 string capo which works 95% as well....

 

V

 

 

Jim should have my guitar ready for me by the end of the week. We'll see what kind of magic he can come up with.

 

I tried the 12 string inserts on my Thalia and it still doesn't work as well as my Heritage.

[drathbun]

I received my Hummingbird 12 string back from my guitar tech Jim. He made some adjustments and asked me to play it a bit and if it isn't to my liking, he will make me a new nut (this is all free of charge, covered under my Gibson/Long & McQuade warranty). I've played it a couple of days and there is a pronounced intonation disparity between the two B strings when fretted at two and three. I'm sure it is mismatched nut slot heights (one is too low). So I'm going to take it back to him after my home "gig" next week and let him fashion a new bone nut for it.

[Versatile]

From decades of experience I now believe that many 12 string issues just have to be lived with....

 

I spend as little time as possible retuning in mid-set....occasionally playing slightly out of tune as a result....

 

A mandolin misbehaves in some similar ways

 

As does a bouzouki : they come in both 'unison' tuning of the 4 courses and 'octave' tuning of the lower 2 courses.....

 

The beauty of double string courses is to be cherished

 

Whilst living with and minimising their inherent foibles and limitations....

 

V