Refinished guitars

[ksdaddy]

Archtop hunt 2018. All via internet. Yay. You know how it goes.

 

One is a gorgeous professionally restored (refinished) 1933 L-7. It looks like a time capsule. TOO good. I did some research and tracked down both the former owner and the guy who restored it. The former owner raved about it. Weight, feel, tone, liveliness. He had actually posted on the AGF a few years back lamenting that he never should have sold it. And it is priced low ($2450). I am having a bit of a hard time with the fact it is refinished though. Just me. I like patina. I did learn that it was a basket case that someone had slathered varnish all over, so I should be happy it was restored to the degree it was done. Seriously, it is scary good.

 

Another is a '47 Epiphone Deluxe with some nasty repaired cracks for around $1900. Not so quick about pulling the trigger on that one although it does have a serious old vibe.

 

2003 L-7, made in Montana. $2495. I'm sure it will be of the best quality but it's got no old smell/vibe/funk.

 

1960 L-5C with a repaired headstock. Can't see the repair in the photos at all. Auction, opening bid $5000.

 

There's also a 1947 L-5 ($6500) that keeps showing up on Guitar Center's website and then disappearing. Are they selling it and it keeps getting returned?

 

I don't WANT to spend $6000+ but an L-5 has been on top of the bucket list since I was old enough to know what one was.

[uncle fester]

My vote #1 is the L5, with the opportunity to tick something off the bucket list, it calls heavily. Next up would be the 1933 L7 even though it's been restored, it's something I believe I'd be happy. Good conundrum.

[j45nick]

I sold my 1947 L-7 for about $2300 last year. It had a new pickguard and new high-quality case, and was just a little bit worn cosmetically, and in perfect condition structurally, with no fretboard wear. All original finish. You can still see it on the True Vintage Guitars website to get an idea of the condition.

 

Almost exactly the same as the L-5, without the nice bling. Still nicely adorned.

 

I would never buy a "collectible" guitar like a vintage L-5 that had been "restored", if it involve re-finishing. If a collectible vintage guitar has been re-finished, you probably need to discount it by at least 30%.

 

Having said that, the right guitar at the right price, even if it has been re-finished, is hard to pass up.

 

If you are looking at a 1930's L-7, make sure it has the "advanced" 17" body. It's the same body in plan view as the J-200, with 17" lower bout. If you really pound on it with a flat p[ick, it is loud.

 

Cutaway models bring about a 50% premium over a non-cutaway, whether L-5 or L-7.

[OldCowboy]

I usually buy guitars with the intention of playing, not investing. With that in mind, the notion of a refinished - always presuming a top notch job - vintage item is always likely to call my name as opposed to paying top dollar for a new guitar or vintage piece w/o refinish. That's just my take, though, and many feel differently.

[zombywoof]

Having not played the specific guitars you are looking at I could not say. But I am going to be the odd man out and would say think hard about going with the Epiphone. Years ago I got a burr under my saddle and decided it was time to try and make peace with a F-hole archtop. As I had to bide my time waiting for guitars to show up so I could get my hands on them it took me a couple of years. I tried out a Gibson L-5, a knock dead gorgeous L-12, a few L-50s, and an Epi Deluxe, Blackstone and Triumph. This, of course, was only a taste of what is out there but I ended up with a cosmetically challenged 1950s blonde (fairly rare) Epiphone Triumph Regent. While blanket statements are dangerous, as a rule I found the Epis, while giving up a bit of the midrange punch of the L-5 and L-12 had an overall fatter sound more like a good flattop. The Epi is the only guitar I own that has a name - "Bloody Mary", bestowed because the steaks left by the off gassing pickguard look all the world like dried blood.

 

[jvi]

l5 was good enough for Maybell...historic model if there ever was one.

[zombywoof]

I only own one refinished guitar. That would be my Banner J-50 which while built as a natural top acquired a burst when somebody down the line found that one of the book matched top pieces had been flip flopped and decided to shoot a burst on it to cover up the screw up. Over the years the guitar lost the burst. It was then restored by my repair guy who copied the finish from that on a 1944 J-45 he also had in the shop. Remains the best guitar I have ever owned or played.

 

But I am a notorious cheapskate and tend to look for guitars that are something less than in original condition. If a seller at a guitar show I went to a few months ago was set up to accept anything other than cash, I would have walked out with a maple body Banner LG-2 with a refinished top and some replaced parts. As somebody here noted, I am not a collector or do not buy guitars with the intention of flipping them. I buy them to play the heck out of them.

[Hogeye]

Archtop hunt 2018. All via internet. Yay. You know how it goes.

 

One is a gorgeous professionally restored (refinished) 1933 L-7. It looks like a time capsule. TOO good. I did some research and tracked down both the former owner and the guy who restored it. The former owner raved about it. Weight, feel, tone, liveliness. He had actually posted on the AGF a few years back lamenting that he never should have sold it. And it is priced low ($2450). I am having a bit of a hard time with the fact it is refinished though. Just me. I like patina. I did learn that it was a basket case that someone had slathered varnish all over, so I should be happy it was restored to the degree it was done. Seriously, it is scary good.

 

Another is a '47 Epiphone Deluxe with some nasty repaired cracks for around $1900. Not so quick about pulling the trigger on that one although it does have a serious old vibe.

 

2003 L-7, made in Montana. $2495. I'm sure it will be of the best quality but it's got no old smell/vibe/funk.

 

1960 L-5C with a repaired headstock. Can't see the repair in the photos at all. Auction, opening bid $5000.

 

There's also a 1947 L-5 ($6500) that keeps showing up on Guitar Center's website and then disappearing. Are they selling it and it keeps getting returned?

 

I don't WANT to spend $6000+ but an L-5 has been on top of the bucket list since I was old enough to know what one was.

 

 

Get the Montana L-7. It may not have the old guitar stank but it will have a whiff of Ren Ferguson. These are the most under appreciated guitars on the planet. They have an amazing build quality. They are the real deal and I have played most of them. They will be discovered down the line and when that happens they will sell for what they are really worth. Lots of big $$$$$$.

[zombywoof]

Get the Montana L-7. It may not have the old guitar stank but it will have a whiff of Ren Ferguson. These are the most under appreciated guitars on the planet. They have an amazing build quality. They are the real deal and I have played most of them. They will be discovered down the line and when that happens they will sell for what they are really worth. Lots of big $$$$$$.

 

If it was a pre-1992 Custom Shop archtop I would be all over it. Jim Triggs oversaw and built Gibson's CS archtops from the beginning of the Bozeman shop up to '92 when he struck out on his own. The guy was and is a master archtop instrument builder.

[j45nick]

If it was a pre-1992 Custom Shop archtop I would be all over it. Jim Triggs oversaw and built Gibson's CS archtops from the beginning of the Bozeman shop up to '92 when he struck out on his own. The guy was and is a master archtop instrument builder.

 

 

Would those have the paddle neck joint and Fullerplast finish?

[ksdaddy]

I don't think any Gibson archtops had the paddle joint. And was Fullerplast exclusive to Bozeman or did they use it in Nashville too? I think the Triggs archtops would have been Nashville. To my limited knowledge, the L-7 (reissue, for lack of a better word) was the only archtop made in Bozeman. Hogeye can verify or refute that easily.

[ksdaddy]

Here is the 1933 L-7:

 

 

[Hogeye]

If it was a pre-1992 Custom Shop archtop I would be all over it. Jim Triggs oversaw and built Gibson's CS archtops from the beginning of the Bozeman shop up to '92 when he struck out on his own. The guy was and is a master archtop instrument builder.

 

 

I know we have talked about this before but I will chime in again. Jim Triggs never worked in the Bozeman plant. He was employed in Nashville but never came to Bozeman. All of the early Gibson's were flat-tops none were archtops. Gibson started in Montana in '89. The very early protos were hand made by Ren Ferguson. None were arch-tops. All of the arch-top production was done in Nashville.

 

IN 1993 Montana bought a L-5 to study for a possible build but that idea was met with a lot of serious opposition from Nashville who was in charge of all arch-top production. There was a meeting in Montana about the project and "Hutch", Mike McGuire and a couple of others from Nashville got very animated. The G.M at Montana was sure he could take over the project and Nashville was there to protect their turf. Long story short was that Triggs was not at that meeting and he was not at Montana. By the way the L-5 that Montana bought just sort of disappeared. I tried to buy it as it was a great guitar but it just sort of disappeared never to be seen again.

 

Montana's G.M was going to build the arch-top and he went ahead with the project. The L-5 turned into the L-7 project and Mike Stanger lent Ren his old but nice L-7 to copy. When the guitar was put into production Ren decided to buff out Mike's guitar and send it back to him. The guitar was doing fine until one of the F holes caught on the buffing wheel sending the guitar into the wall. They saved the pieces and put it back together but it was never the same. Ren gave the repaired guitar back along with a new copy and Mike was not happy but took the deal.

 

Nashville was furious and they sent all of the Chet guitars to Montana and told the G.M that if he wanted to steal their guitars they could just have the Chet's. This was their payback and Henry approved the deal. If that wasn't enough, and it should have been, Nashville "Custom Shop" division started making flat-tops. They made a very nice line of inexpensive guitars and marketed them in the face of the Montana G.M. Gibson had several of these turf wars but this was the most contentious. The Nashville flat-tops died on the vine under pressure from Dave Berryman as he felt they were a threat to his Epiphone division.

[J-1854Me]

I know we have talked about this before but I will chime in again. Jim Triggs never worked in the Bozeman plant. He was employed in Nashville but never came to Bozeman. All of the early Gibson's were flat-tops none were archtops. Gibson started in Montana in '89. The very early protos were hand made by Ren Ferguson. None were arch-tops. All of the arch-top production was done in Nashville.

 

IN 1993 Montana bought a L-5 to study for a possible build but that idea was met with a lot of serious opposition from Nashville who was in charge of all arch-top production. There was a meeting in Montana about the project and "Hutch", Mike McGuire and a couple of others from Nashville got very animated. The G.M at Montana was sure he could take over the project and Nashville was there to protect their turf. Long story short was that Triggs was not at that meeting and he was not at Montana. By the way the L-5 that Montana bought just sort of disappeared. I tried to buy it as it was a great guitar but it just sort of disappeared never to be seen again.

 

Montana's G.M was going to build the arch-top and he went ahead with the project. The L-5 turned into the L-7 project and Mike Stanger lent Ren his old but nice L-7 to copy. When the guitar was put into production Ren decided to buff out Mike's guitar and send it back to him. The guitar was doing fine until one of the F holes caught on the buffing wheel sending the guitar into the wall. They saved the pieces and put it back together but it was never the same. Ren gave the repaired guitar back along with a new copy and Mike was not happy but took the deal.

 

Nashville was furious and they sent all of the Chet guitars to Montana and told the G.M that if he wanted to steal their guitars they could just have the Chet's. This was their payback and Henry approved the deal. If that wasn't enough, and it should have been, Nashville "Custom Shop" division started making flat-tops. They made a very nice line of inexpensive guitars and marketed them in the face of the Montana G.M. Gibson had several of these turf wars but this was the most contentious. The Nashville flat-tops died on the vine under pressure from Dave Berryman as he felt they were a threat to his Epiphone division.

 

Interesting! I've never heard about 'Nashville flattops', but I have seen some of the Ren archtops from Bozeman.

 

Back to Scott's "dilemma" -- I'd go with the newer L-7 or the refin L-7. Myself, I do not like refins on vintage instruments, if they can be avoided, and that '33 -- like you say -- is just too clean-looking.

 

Fred

[Dave F]

Here is the 1933 L-7:

 

 

Looks nice. Did you get it?

[ksdaddy]

Nope. Somebody did though. Hey, if it meant that much to me, I would have jumped I guess.

 

I also have a 1960 L-5C in mind. Supposedly it has had a headstock repair but it can't be seen. The seller shared with me who did the work and claims you can't see it, he was just pointing it out for disclosure.

 

Same seller has a 1978 Johnny Smith. For less money.

 

Hogeye, were those Montana L-7s X braced? I believe they were but wanted to check.

 

My wife and I were chatting and I said I didn't know if I would ever find an archtop that fits. It's out there, I'm just not settling. I'll do catch and release until it happens. And it's not a money thing. I got rid of a Heritage Super Eagle (basically a Super 400) because it was thin and unresponsive. Yet 10 years ago or so I owned two "junk" guitars, a Hobner made in India and a Hoyer from Germany, both bought under $100, that had that runka-chunk I was looking for. Too stupid to hang onto them because they weren't snobby enough I guess. (That has NEVER served me very well by the way)

[j45nick]

 

Hogeye, were those Montana L-7s X braced? I believe they were but wanted to check.

 

 

Don't know about the Montana-built L-7's, but my 1947 L-7 had the traditional parallel (almost) top bracing that is one of the sources of that classic arch-top punch. An X-braced one would probably have a bit more balance but less punch, according to Bob Benedetto's discussions on archtop top bracing.

[ksdaddy]

My biggest reason for being leery of x-bracing is that I once owned a 1935 (advanced 17”) L-7 with x bracing and the top had collapsed. I’ve seen many like this. I also owned a 1992 Golden Eagle with the same affliction. Not saying all x braces ones will do that (obviously they don’t) but I’ve never had a problem with parallel bracing.

[bobouz]

Per listed specs, the Montana L-7c has X-bracing.

 

That definitely attracts me to it, as my favorite in-hand acoustic archtop was a '30s Gibson-made Wards, with a carved top & X-bracing. Probably paid no more than $25 for it at a flea market in the '70s. What didn't work for me was the rather fat V-profiled neck, but the addictive tone was safely tucked away in my mind.

 

About a year before selling Guild to Cordoba in 2014, Fender released the Newark St. line of electrics, built in Korea. One model was the Guild A-150 (initially made in '59), with a pressed solid-spruce top & X-bracing. I bought a natural-finish one, made before the sale to Cordoba, and it now fills my acoustic archtop needs nicely. Cordoba continues to produce this model, most likely with the same construction. Edit: Forgot to mention the fine single-coil floating DeArmond pickup, which is why it was included in the electric line-up.

 

I probably won't ever sell the Guild, because if I did, I'm sure I'd immediately begin the hunt for another acoustic archtop - and it's clearly not a simple task!

[ksdaddy]

I got cold feet on the L-5C and the Johnny Smith so they're gone.

 

It'll happen. I'm a firm believer in cold feet.

[OldCowboy]

I got cold feet on the L-5C and the Johnny Smith so they're gone.

 

It'll happen. I'm a firm believer in cold feet.

My system, when one calls my name in a music store, is to go somewhere - have a cup of coffee - and return to the store. If the guitar's still there, I buy. If not, it wasn't meant to happen.