kidblast Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 Any one using a ToneDexter? Doug Young did a pretty good quick run down, the a/b from the pickup to the "trained" setting is quite a difference. 400 clams... not cheap.. but seems to be a fantastic preamp. Now here's the rub. Almost all of my acoustics have the same fishmam infinity matrix, my 12 string has a sonitone, (it works ok, but honestly my least favorite of the two)... I run a modest pedal chain where I have a small amount of compression, a 7 band Graphic, and a Holy Grail reverb which are always engaged, (a delay, boost and a looper when needed.) From the board, I run into an 8ch mixer, and then out to either headphones if just me, or powered monitors if I'm doing a solo gig. I get what I feel is a decent sound out of this with my acoustics. I know the ToneDexter will improve it, I don't see how it can't, the tutorials I have watched are impressive. So asking any owners out there, now that you're using one, do you consider it a major game changer to your amplified tone?
uncle fester Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 I say get it, GAS'ng for one myself! Two things I've heard is (1) Need a good mic for the initial set up and (2) beware the pickups you have, I believe it's meant to work with piezo (i.e. K&K) not sure what the fishman is, but it's my understanding it wont work with a coil pickup. Get it though, you really should :)
jedzep Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 What, you haven't been reading BK's threads?
kidblast Posted February 22, 2019 Author Posted February 22, 2019 I say get it, GAS'ng for one myself! Two things I've heard is (1) Need a good mic for the initial set up and (2) beware the pickups you have, I believe it's meant to work with piezo (i.e. K&K) not sure what the fishman is, but it's my understanding it wont work with a coil pickup. Get it though, you really should :) fishmans are under saddle traducer pickups (aka: piezo) It's no doubt "on the list" same as you, when the cash becomes available, I'll be taking a bit more seriously. reaching out here, see what the general consensus is What, you haven't been reading BK's threads? ha! I have looked over some of them. I think he's back posting, so maybe he'll comment here too
BluesKing777 Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 Worth every gold rock! You probably need to fiddle around with it for a few weeks before gigging it. It works best with simple piezos, passive even better, no dual source, mic added, mags, or body sensor stuff that will confuse it. You may need to keep you eq pedal. BK’s simplified theory of acoustic guitar tone is that a simple and narrow sound like a Baggs soundhole with preamp can be easier to set up live. The Tonedexter will give you ALL the missing bits to sound like you are playing into a microphone instead of the quacker. But like a micophone, it needs to be carved up a bit with EQ or you won’t have EQ space for singing, for example. Too much of a good thing? Tomorrow, (it is 1AM here), I will do a demo for you with Fishman passive undersaddle....(horrible PLUS) with a little comparison to the same thing through Tonedexter (miraculous!). Mics.....I have my wonderful Neumann KM184 and that does the Tonedexter ‘training’ superbly, but I have done TD files using a plain old Shure SM57 and that is a huge improvement on a piezo sound. But they do say to use a small condensor mic, probably to avoid too much bass. If you have used a SM57 live before, you will ‘get it’. But generally it is the old SISO policy......(shite in, shite out). BluesKing777.
kidblast Posted February 22, 2019 Author Posted February 22, 2019 Worth every gold rock! You probably need to fiddle around with it for a few weeks before gigging it. It works best with simple piezos, passive even better, no dual source, mic added, mags, or body sensor stuff that will confuse it. You may need to keep you eq pedal. BK’s simplified theory of acoustic guitar tone is that a simple and narrow sound like a Baggs soundhole with preamp can be easier to set up live. The Tonedexter will give you ALL the missing bits to sound like you are playing into a microphone instead of the quacker. But like a micophone, it needs to be carved up a bit with EQ or you won’t have EQ space for singing, for example. Too much of a good thing? Tomorrow, (it is 1AM here), I will do a demo for you with Fishman passive undersaddle....(horrible PLUS) with a little comparison to the same thing through Tonedexter (miraculous!). Mics.....I have my wonderful Neumann KM184 and that does the Tonedexter ‘training’ superbly, but I have done TD files using a plain old Shure SM57 and that is a huge improvement on a piezo sound. But they do say to use a small condensor mic, probably to avoid too much bass. If you have used a SM57 live before, you will ‘get it’. But generally it is the old SISO policy......(shite in, shite out). BluesKing777. Thx BK! I do have a 57, and a few other mics to try. the plan would be for all acoustics, 3 6str steel, a 12 string, and a nylon. I'd try the 57 since don't have a neumann,.. but my son may even have some mics I can borrow, he's quite a few. may take a few weeks or more to scrap up the coin, but it's getting itself on the short list.
livemusic Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 Probably a dumb question... you're creating some kind of 'image' of the mic'd sound? If you do an image of the best sounding guitar in the world, why couldn't you just use that out of any guitar and have it sound great? I don't know how this thing works, thus, the dumb question lol.
kidblast Posted February 22, 2019 Author Posted February 22, 2019 Probably a dumb question... you're creating some kind of 'image' of the mic'd sound? If you do an image of the best sounding guitar in the world, why couldn't you just use that out of any guitar and have it sound great? I don't know how this thing works, thus, the dumb question lol. The ToneDexter doensn't MODEL an acoustic which I think is what you're getting at. When you set it up to use for a particular guitar, you have to go in to a "Training session" You plug in your pickup and you also use a condensor mic to the pre-amp, As you play it listens during the training session, captures the guitars on board pickup as well what it hears from what ever mic you're using to capture the 100% acoustic sound as if you were micing it to record it. I'm sure the mic, and mic placement makes a huge difference, so I think some trial and error may come in to play when you are first dialing it in. but once done, from there it creates an optimized preset for THAT guitar. A SJ200 will sound different than a D28, and if you're using a nylon string, even a mandolin or a uke -- any string instrument with a pickup If done correctly, the ToneDexter will give you the most natural sound you can get form any of your guitars, with the convenience of a xlr connection from the ToneDExer to your mixer or, even acoustic guitar amp (like a Fishman Loudbox). You would repeat this training session for each guitar you plan to use it with, and then THAT preset you created for each guitar is what you would use as you interchange guitars. if you have three acoustics, you'd repeat this three times. if you have a great guitar and a really good pickup system, it seems that implementing this only improves the amplified sound you can achieve. if you watch a few demos, like this one by Doug Young you'll get a better idea of what it does. It's impressive. I'm sold! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYBgVt2RvLg
livemusic Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 It's definitely excitingly impressive for those of us that don't like the sound of a pickup. Anyone know if it would work with these that have pickups... Gibson J45 standard (2010) Collings OM3 with K&K pure mini Gibson Jackson Browne with Trance Amulet
BluesKing777 Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 Here is a short comparison track I just recorded. So first up is an undersaddle Fishman piezo on my Martin 000-17 (Black Smoke), played direct to my mixer/record. Second is the same guitar plugged in to my Tonedexter with a file I made for the 000-17 running at a blend of about 75% of image to pickup. Next I ran another of the same file, but used a 100% blend. And last to compare, I then plugged in my black Maton with AP5-Pro pickup system direct to the mixer/record. I would just take this guitar out, plug direct to a PA.... just so 'sorted' and easy... https://soundcloud.com/bk7-3/piezotest7c BluesKing777.
livemusic Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 Here is a short comparison track I just recorded. So first up is an undersaddle Fishman piezo on my Martin 000-17 (Black Smoke), played direct to my mixer/record. Second is the same guitar plugged in to my Tonedexter with a file I made for the 000-17 running at a blend of about 75% of image to pickup. Next I ran another of the same file, but used a 100% blend. And last to compare, I then plugged in my black Maton with AP5-Pro pickup system direct to the mixer/record. I would just take this guitar out, plug direct to a PA.... just so 'sorted' and easy... https://soundcloud.com/bk7-3/piezotest7c BluesKing777. The Mathon has been dexterized or what's up? They sound great.
BluesKing777 Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 I thought I was fairly clear about what I did on my recording above, I guess not. So... I plugged my Martin with undersaddle passive piezo direct to my mixer and recorded the tune....full piezo quack. Then I plugged the same guitar to my Tonedexter preamp and played the same tune, first time with 75% image and the next time with 100% image. Then I turned all that off. I grabbed my black Maton EBG808 deep body 00 with Maton AP5- Pro pickup system onboard and plugged the lead straight to my mixer and recorded it. I probably could have turned it up more... BluesKing777.
Murph Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 It models a sound and you adjust it till you like it. It's a modeler.
kidblast Posted February 24, 2019 Author Posted February 24, 2019 thx for the comparisons BK, appreciate that you took the time to do those. The difference is rather stark on the first sample to the third. the fourth, given it's straight in is pretty good too.
Murph Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 thx for the comparisons BK, appreciate that you took the time to do those. The difference is rather stark on the first sample to the third. the fourth, given it's straight in is pretty good too. He's been tweaking with that thing a while. He's getting pretty good at it !
kidblast Posted February 26, 2019 Author Posted February 26, 2019 He's been tweaking with that thing a while. He's getting pretty good at it ! Yea, it does seem that you need take the time to figure out how to get it right, the mic used, the distance from the guitar to the mic, the size of the room, all could make a difference. Makes your head kinda spin... But I do plan on picking one up this year.
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