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G-Force/Tronical - the Inside story.


Guest MarriottLuvr

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This is sad and disappointing for me guys. After hoping I could steer the thread towards a place where there was a bit of tolerance for the other side from both wings it's looking very like this forum is the same as every other guitar based one I have found, ruled by who shouts loudest for longest without any factual input or curiosity as to why people have a different view. You guys obviously just "know" what is right and no one who doesn't stand behind you is against you.

 

I'm an engineer and a good one. I believe in an engineered route towards better solutions. I believe in pushing the boundaries of what we try to achieve and how we achieve it even if the results are not perfect in every way. I know from many years of experience that there are different routes through any problem, all of which are equally valid, because there are different requirements to meet out there which are equally valid in their own circumstances. I try to have a tolerant view towards others who do not think as I do. I may not agree but I ALWAYS consider seriously what they have to say for reasons I posted previously. That is to my benefit as it keeps me growing. I'm sorry to say, it doesn't appear at first sight that there is too much of that here. The dogmatic approach I am seeing only leads to stagnation and ignorance.

 

As I said, sad. [thumbdn] I don't have anything to contribute to this place I fear.

 

Sorry you feel that way. I do understand why. Can I suggest you don't let a couple of barbed (probably deliberately provocative) remarks alienate you. I stuck with G-Force for over 3 years. As long as it behaved well I let it work for me. Its only let me down once, but that is once too many. If I just used that guitar as a hobby guitar I would live with it, but I want to gig with too, so it has to be %100 reliable.

 

If it worked better and held tuning longer, I would keep it. It was fun for a while.

 

Meanwhile I hope you stick around. There is a wealth of experience & knowledge here with people happy to share.

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Guest MarriottLuvr

The problem is not with criticism of the Autotune system ME, I welcome that. It's the absolute need to wipe out any opposing views with true or fake information that I can't stand. We have already seen claims made here which are absolutely wrong, but they were put forward as the absolute truth. That belligerent position and "fake news" approach is an increasing internet phenomenon that is ruling out all worthwhile discussion of anything. I don't come to places like this to show my wealth of experience and discerning intellect. I am happy to share anything like that where I can but I mainly come here to benefit from other people's points of view and what factual info they can offer that I don't already know or share. This current totally polarised 100% right/wrong intelligent/moronic view of things is sick, distasteful and destructive. I won't be brought down to that level. I've got more to offer and more to gain from not mixing in those circles.

 

I'll restrict myself to basic technical questions and leave it at that.

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OP, I believe a lot of the comments were made tongue in cheek. Personally I think your post was very informative and I don't mind the playful banter one bit. I've learned something from your post and I hope you continue posting valuable content even if some will disagree with it.

 

Back to the tuner itself, I have a little anecdote if you're interested. A friend of mine works at a guitar store and they had a 2015 SG with its original G-Force. My friend started criticizing the G-Force tuners and showed me how on the 2015 SG how long it took to re-tune the guitar. A few weeks later I got a 2017 LP Standard HP fully expecting to change the tuners based on my friends demonstration, however, I my 2017 G-Force tuned my guitar much faster than I was expecting. So I took my guitar in when my friend was at work for us to A/B the 2015 SG against my 2017 LP. Indeed we found that the 2017 G-force tuned my guitar significantly faster than on the 2015. It's anecdotal and therefore not a true scientific experiment, but enough evidence for me to give the G-Force a go. I'm happy with it so far so I won't be changing it unless time proves that the system is unreliable. I've gigged with mine since I got the guitar in 2017. It has been my main guitar mostly due to being light enough that I can play for hours without shoulder fatigue so it's been my workhorse. I ran out of juice once during a practice session and ended up tuning the LP by hand. After that I got a spare battery and it hasn't let me down yet. I have some other guitars in my rotation, including some core PRSi, a Fender and other Gibsons (including an R0). My 2017 LP HP plays as well as any other guitar I have and it is absolutely flawless. If I could change anything, it'd be the fretboard width, as I marginally prefer the fretboard width on the traditional non-HP models. As I write this I'm happy with G-Force and will only change it if it ever lets me down.

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Hey man, you posted great info. They are pretty "opinionated" around here. Even me on the Richlite, with all the pros AND cons, i'm pretty stubborn about it, lol

 

I really enjoyed your take on the GForce tuners. Ignore the BS and stick around or at least stop in when you have free time. msp_cool.gif

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Yeah OP nothing personal here. Just because I think those tuners are POS and you can’t change my mind doesn’t mean I disrespect you personally or need to have my intelligence insulted. I don’t care if you like them or not really so thanks for the post those that find it useful will thank you and those that already made up their mind about them are free to say what they want about some stupid tuners Gibson decided to put on their guitars. I’ve gotten earfuls about things I posted too and I’m still here. We are all different and entitled to make our opinions on the facts be it what they may. All I can say to this is you won’t catch any one of my guitars with the robo-tuner crap that’s out there currently. Not a thoughtful essay on it will change my mind and when I give my opinion on it as I have, I don’t need an essay in return about it why I am some sort of a$$ because that’s what it seemed like being that this is one of your first things you contribute to this forum. You went in in the deep end right away with this topic...

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Guest MarriottLuvr

Nighthawk,

 

We are all different and entitled to make our opinions on the facts be it what they may.
So long as they are facts! Most of what you posted as the basis for your poor view of this was not factual, it was plain wrong. The video you posted was full of incorrect info. I pointed that out from my own findings. Doesn't that make you at least re-appraise your opinion on something? Or is it normal with you to make your mind up on what you want to believe is true and then never change it no matter what new facts or corrections are pointed out to you? If that's the case then there is no point in talking with you as we won't be having a meaningful discussion about anything, we are just butting heads with nothing to achieve. It's been great meeting you.

 

FZ,

 

...and your point with that is? You're right, those topics are perennials and will crop up over and over. That doesn't mean they shouldn't continue to be critiqued and new info concerning them put out there. It is entirely possible that someone may realise they have made a wrong assumption about them and change their mind given correct factual info. Not everyone is as narrow minded as this. You talk as though, once again, once you have made your mind up based on the first bit of guru gossip you hear then it displays weakness to alter that opinion and it must be held onto and defended to the death for ever after. I'm afraid I don't live in that narrow constricted world.

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...and your point with that is? You're right, those topics are perennials and will crop up over and over. That doesn't mean they shouldn't continue to be critiqued and new info concerning them put out there. It is entirely possible that someone may realise they have made a wrong assumption about them and change their mind given correct factual info. Not everyone is as narrow minded as this.

 

Nobody on the internet has ever changed the mind of someone else on the internet. Put your facts up and be done with it. If everyone stopped posting on the internet because other people didn't agree with them, factual or not, there'd be no internet.

 

rct

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I found the OP very interesting and even looked into buying a G-Force. I decided not to, because it appears to be too much maintenance in the long run.

 

I agree with RCT, I do not think there is a forum on the internet nor an actual think tank without it having the narrow minded guy, an asswhole, and the rude prick as members. I do wish god would stop making these people though.

Edited by Big Bill
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I agree with RCT, I do not think there is a forum on the internet nor an actual think tank with out the having the narrow minded guy, an asswhole, and the rude prick as members. I do wish god would stop making these people though.

 

I disagree and quite frankly, I find your posturing about the internet without any data disturbing.

 

rct

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Nobody on the internet has ever changed the mind of someone else on the internet...

I was going to disagree with you completely but then, having though about it a bit more, I realised that you are right.

Pip.

 

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I was going to disagree with you completely but then, having though about it a bit more, I realised that you are right.

Pip.

 

I'm sorry my friend, but I am wrong, and in your agreement with me you too are wrong. I know I am right about this.

 

rct

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I'd argue that there is a subjective side to these sort of things, which I believe are valid. Some people will not like the general idea or concept of a self tuning guitar and that's fine. It is their preference and their prerogative. Personally I find it kind of cool and rather useful. I don't think the quality of the components themselves influences those who are inherently against the notion of using a self tuning guitar and that's perfectly fine. That's not to say I'm in favor of spreading false information. I found it informative when you, OP, debunked the video. It's nice that we got to read what you as an engineer had to say about it. If it weren't for that video being posted some of us wouldn't have the background to scrutinize it in the same way you did. I find that despite the banter and playfulness there wasn't a serious dismissal to your content like I've seen in other places. For instance, in some other unnamed internet location someone wanted help choosing among a list of guitars, one of them a Gibson LP Studio or Faded or Tribute, I can't remember the exact model. I told the person posting the thread that he/she should play the guitars for himself/herself, but if I were the one making the decision I would have gone with the Gibson. Then comes this person to talk about how Gibson is trash and the QC is horrible and repeating all that internet hive mind opinions. Turned out that the person played PRS almost exclusively and had no experience playing the more recent Gibson guitars, say from 2016 on. This happened twice in the same unnamed internet location, just instead of PRS the other person was a fan of ESP/LTD. I don't think the same is happening here. I see people, when being completely serious, saying that they don't like the general idea or concept of a self tuning guitar. Also, just because you are stating something doesn't make it true, so I believe it valid to question and have you address certain aspects. Even if the video posted was as you put it, rubbish, it was important for you to address it. The guy in the video was indeed saying something different from what you were saying so it makes sense the video was posted. Perhaps it's my academic background where whenever you try to publish something that contradicts another paper it is almost inevitable that the other paper will be brought up by a referee or a peer in case you don't cite it. Maybe I'm interpreting things wrong, but that's how I'm reading into the comments.

 

Edit: Also the fact that some people don't even want to give the G-force a go is a win win. People who like it get to buy is cheap in the used market to install it on their other guitars. Conversely, people who don't like it receive something that help finance their replacement tuners. Everybody's happy. Finally I have no problem whatsoever drilling a tiny hole on the headstock of my guitar to install a new tuner. I don't see how that is a problem. It'd be pretty silly if Gibson pre-drilled the tuner holes assuming that everyone was going to hate G-Force to begin with.

Edited by pauloqs
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I'm sorry my friend, but I am wrong, and in your agreement with me you too are wrong. I know I am right about this.

I was just about to say 'I agree with you' but, having recently reconsidered my musings from earlier in the day, I've changed my mind again and realised that I DID disagree with you after all. It follows, therefore, that you were right all along and that, damnably, I was wrong which means that you are wrong about this. About this I am 100% lost.

Pip.

 

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MarriottLuvr user_popup.png

I'm sorry your thread got trampled all over. Unfortunately, that's what happens with online forums. Of just about all types of forums, unfortunately. They quickly become little more than social clubs, with little resemblance to a true forum. It is much more like walking into a bar where the conversation is directed by anyone who talks the loudest. It is more about getting ones ego stoked than any genuine desire to partake in the topic. And they want so bad for you to be as impressed with their idea of how clever and witty they think they are.

If you really want continue to cover your topic, the best advice it to totally ignore them. They are just desperate to engage you to bring you down to their level. Just ignore them and continue."Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

 

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MarriottLuvr user_popup.png

I'm sorry your thread got trampled all over. Unfortunately, that's what happens with online forums. Of just about all types of forums, unfortunately. They quickly become little more than social clubs, with little resemblance to a true forum. It is much more like walking into a bar where the conversation is directed by anyone who talks the loudest. It is more about getting ones ego stoked than any genuine desire to partake in the topic. And they want so bad for you to be as impressed with their idea of how clever and witty they think they are.

If you really want continue to cover your topic, the best advice it to totally ignore them. They are just desperate to engage you to bring you down to their level. Just ignore them and continue."Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

 

 

I partook in the topic just fine to start and even offered a video on how to replace them with standard tuners. You called me out for spreading negative bias, and I've had the video I watched called out as not factual - when in fact I physically saw the internals of the tuner in the video clearly and saw that gear's teeth littered throughout the housing of the tuning machine. I never claimed that the video was 100% engineer approved, but it isn't "rubbish". If someone is going to call me out on some crap and act like they are some intellectual elitist or have more moral fiber, they can GTFOH with that crap - I am not going to take anyone's s###. How's that for some witty response? Enjoy your tuners pal.

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Guest MarriottLuvr

At last, the true colours come out. Now we have factual info to work with.

 

You called me out for spreading negative bias, and I've had the video I watched called out as not factual - when in fact I physically saw the internals of the tuner in the video clearly and saw that gear's teeth littered throughout the housing of the tuning machine.

 

Chris, I never personally "called you out" in any way. If you class someone who points out that what you said is wrong as "calling you out" then you have nothing of worth to offer to anything like a civilised discussion. Every interaction is doomed to descend to sniping and confrontation. I posted facts in a polite and open manner giving you the opportunity to reply with any logical or factual responses of your own. You seem to have none except to be pi&&ed because someone had the mere temerity to show you made a mistake. No one anywhere in any forum can expect to post something and not have it criticised for accuracy, myself included. (I would actually say myself especially as I welcome any new facts opposing what I already know, that's why I bother posting in the first place.) I pointed out you were spreading untruths, and I still do, you were. You rubbished the unit citing incorrect information as the basis of your criticism.

 

You claimed there were plastic gears inside. (I think I remember the video making the same point but I could be wrong on that and, frankly, I can't be bothered to go back and check at this stage.) That is a complete fabrication. It is also a myth I have read many times in other places on the internet so it needs to be challenged when it crops up. It's fake news! It adds nothing to the debate and smears the product unfairly. If you have any integrity in matters like this you will in future point out yourself that this is not true when you come across it. (Disappointingly I'm beginning to suspect you won't.) As you can actually see with your own eyes from the pictures I posted, the only piece of plastic in the whole chain is the motor drive cog and that is deliberate and of benefit to the system, not for cheapness. The only teeth which were broken were from the tuning shaft drive cog which is brass, and they show how the tuner has suffered abuse in use not how cheap it is. It is the end point of the chain and, as such, experiences the maximum stress, hence it is brass. Have you read the manual and found the part where Tronical recommend the maximum loads on the tuners in terms that all guitarists can understand without any engineering knowledge? Has anyone who hates this unit? I missed them myself for a long while simply because it never occurred to me that it would be there and relevant. Of course it is! Once I thought to look and I found it my own problem made sense. (And if I can admit that how many others will also?)

 

One more major factually incorrect point is the criticism of the crown wheel assembly. It is obvious to any engineer, indeed any logical person, that the crown gear on the shaft of the tuner handle cannot engage reliably with the gear at right angles to it when the case lid is not firmly screwed in place. The shaft on which the gear cluster mounts only has to flex in its lower mounting the tiniest bit, fractions of a mm, for the teeth to lose their firm grip on each other and slip. That is a factor of the size of the unit not a bad flaw. The lid acts as the top mounting which locks the shaft in place with the crown gear properly engaged. Without that in place any test of the manual tuning system is totally meaningless. His demonstration of how that system is badly designed is rubbish.

 

The whole video is the work of an untalented amateur who knows nothing about the work he is criticising. He is incompetent at what he is attempting to do and describe. It does not surprise me that his system has failed, he is a mechanical numpty! To give any credence to the words of such an uninformed guy making claims about things he cannot understand is showing how this whole argument is not about what is true, it's about seeing what you want to be true being established as right. Personally, if this system was badly flawed and could be shown to be I would be firmly in your camp. I have looked for the evidence to show that to be the case and I can't find any. The system has limitations and these are clearly described by the makers. These limitations are perfectly reasonable. In my own case I suspect I went over those limitations without thinking, ('12s tuned to open E), which describes why my own unit eventually failed. My bad not theirs but my ego is not so large that I'm afraid to admit it. It has a lifespan. Someone else earlier pointed out that they were comfortable to view the tuners as replacement items, much like the brake pads in your car, and that is one of the most relevant points here. But I forgot, no manual tuner of any sort has ever worn out or failed through use or abuse, has it? They all go on for ever never needing changing. That is just how some Tronical tuners will behave, they will outlive other parts of the guitar. Some will fail, by their complexity a much higher percentage than in the simple manual case. That's the decision we balance up and the choice we make when we take on this unit. That is clearly documented.

 

By all means hate the unit. Hate it because it has a higher possibility of a failure in a tuner, hate it because it spoils the look of your guitar, or it is the wrong colour, or it has too many flashing lights, or you don't like the logo, or because your fingers are too pudgy to access the buttons, or... a million other reasons which are all personal. Just don't spout factual untruths about it. You did. It was pointed out politely with full description of where you were wrong. Now as you guys are so fond of saying, suck it up, and as we are fond of saying, stop crying into your milk. [flapper] (It just occurred to me that, in tune with the rest of the discussion, I had better point out that that is intended to be a friendly razz not an in your face insulting one. It offers you the option of accepting what I have just said in good humour and getting us past this stupidity.)

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I think most folks here made up their minds after much debate about these tuners years ago. For the most part, folks were going along with the thread until the OP and another member took offense to other's points of view that didn't agree with their's. Too bad so sad, that's how the world turns.

Edited by Big Bill
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Eh... G-force, Shmee-force. If you dig 'em, use 'em. If not, mock those who do, No, no, no, I was just kidding. Really, just kidding.

 

I don't really care how people tune their guitars.

 

I've never listened to anyone play and wondered if they used auto tuners.

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The OP was very interesting even for someone - like myself - who isn't in the market for the item in question.The follow-up post (#17) was even more interesting. Then things went a bit all funny-peculiar. C'est la vie.

Just get the damn Bono pic up!...
That Bono picture is too scary and some of our more fragile members or those of a nervous disposition might have nightmares having espied it so I propose we have a NEW Bono! Specifically this chap;

Look! He's even doffing his chapeau in an act which might, perhaps, be taken as bidding us "Adieu!" at the end of a difficult, hard day?

edward-debono-lo-res.jpg

msp_smile.gif

Now; isn't that nice and friendly!

"The name's Bono. Eddie de Bono."

 

Pip.

 

EDIT : I really like the Bono Gretsch BTW & FWIW. Always have done.

Edited by pippy
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Not so fast with this Gretsch stuff.

Isn't ICONIC a Gibson word?

Where do they get off pulling such a stunt?

 

Bono and Gretsch recently collaborated on this updated version of the iconic green Gretsch guitar known as the Irish Falcon.

P.S.

Nice to see the G-Force doohickeys aren't total pieces of garbage inside the housing.

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well and so...

 

I've seen plenty of this debate over on another forum known as ETSG

which of course represents Everything SG...

 

I am old enough to remember sweaty nights in dicey venues, when the

guitars were cranky and would not stay in tune... Humidity, stuffy heat, bitter cold,

grease in the air from the kitchens, Tobacco smoke and girl perfume...

whatever factors were at work would sometimes sabotage even the most meticulous

of professionals. (I was NEVER that).

 

In those primitive days, we were using tuning forks, harmonicas, even

dodgy honky-tonk pianos to tune our guitars. No electronic tuners (except

the fancy strobes used in recording studios), no internet, no stomp tuners,

no clip-ons... no cell phones with the Gibson app... just the human ear.

 

The human ear has good days and bad days. Mine do anyway.

So I remember raising my voice in frustration, and swearing that who so ever

would invent a servo to mount behind the headstock of any guitar and keep said

guitar in tune would become very rich.

 

Now we all know it ain't that simple...

Many thanks to the OP for a great write-up, and for all that meticulous dis-assembly

and analysis. That, sir was well done, and maybe should be made into a sticky on this

site, since this topic is sure to be revived again and again.

 

In spite of my frustration in the '70s, I don't own a robot tuner mechanism. I am happy

with the stomp tuners I have on my boards, and with the clip-ons I use any other time.

So I have watched the whole debate with detachment of one who is truly uninvolved.

I too can tune my own guitar. And I can go from one tuning to another... although my guitars

often become cranky when asked to submit to this.

 

My solution as a practical musician is to bring two guitars to any gig (as well as my bass

since I'm a switch hitter). I will tune one to something I intend to use in a particular set,

and then change it and let it sulk for a bit before asking it to perform in a different mode.

I use good quality standard tuners... coupled with stomp tuners and clip-ons. And this works.

 

So I don't need the Tronical invention any more. In spite of how cool it seems... to be able to

save DADGAD as a preset, along with DADF#AD and its sister DADF#CD and their cousin

EBEAbBE... those features are VERY attractive to someone like me, who actually can use three

of those tunings in one set.

 

My problem with techno marvels, as a working musician... is DEPENDABILITY...

I have learned the hard way never to trust techno marvels when a performance, and maybe my

career are on the line. Keep it simple. Keep it analog. You can buy guitars with push-pull

knobs enabling the guitarist to emulate several different instruments (badly), and you can

buy amps that enable the guitarist to emulate many different rigs (approximately) by "modeling"

but I have learned (the hard way) that the best tone is the simplest.

 

Not everyone will agree of course. Anyway, I found all of this thread interesting, and I still maintain

an open mind on this topic, even though I don't own any of the technology and have refrained from

investing in it. For me it's easier and more effective to buy another guitar. This actually works!

 

But I can still see how useful this technology might be to the overworked and underpaid guitarist

who needs to be able to play multiple styles in one night, and who needs logistics to be as

simple as possible... instead of what I was saying. If you go to the gig on the subway, with a guitar

in one hand and a very cool amp in the other, then versatility is the key, and the tronical technology

might help you a lot. ...as long as it works. Multiple guitars not an option? Use this tronical robot

Les Paul, and bring home the bacon.

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I want to say that I have no ill will against anyone that participated in this thread. I gave my opinion on something based on what I saw on the interwebs and I think it is great that someone - i.e. the OP - decided to provide some information on these wacky tuners msp_biggrin.gif contrary to the video. I really don't care what anyone does with their guitar. It was getting boring around here, so I decided to stir up the place a bit, haha! No, I honestly I am indifferent what anyone does or has going on with their stuff and I don't come here to flame anyone. Basically, if I had said something that was false, then so be it... I'm not here to try to deny the objectionable. And that scary Bono picture struck the sense into me - been haunting my dreams of that guy singing endless Bloody Sunday with the guitar FZ Fan gave a link to... Whatever with this, so here's my thing... If you want these tuners on your guitar and they last for a long time, I can only hope that someone enjoys this thing and gets their worth out of them. Most likely designed a bit better than what I was previously thinking, so I'll stop there on commenting about things I don't know for sure. I have claimed that people shouldn't start putting up crap here and should try to contribute positively, so I should eat my own words and just say thanks for posting info on this. No argument here from the peanut gallery. Best regards!

 

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