blindboygrunt Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Last couple of gigs for me have been with a blues rock band , bring the j15 Guitar has been 100% for my solo gigs in the past with no issues although they're a much more gentle affair Both gugs the low E bridge pin kept popping up , guitar kept going out of tune I've been playing for over 30 years and I know how to string up , but after first gig I doubted myself and loosened strings and peeked inside to make sure ball end was seated , which it was I put it down to the pixies as blues king calls them , but last nights gig same thing happened Anyone ever experienced this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 I get this occasionally when I string up, which became a nuisance when I bumped up to 13's. Even though the ball end looks properly seated it embeds just enough into the edge of the plate and pops my low E pin up, sometimes barely noticeable, but other times it jumps almost right out. I turned the pin 180 to the unslotted side and never had the problem again. Might not apply to you because there's plenty of age wear on my old timers down in those guts so I have to jiggle, tweak, fudge, and adapt once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 I used to have this situation occasionally happen, but not for quite a long number of years now. I determined it is from a combination of high tension/vibration from the 6th string (or sometimes the 4th or 5 string) plus a minor ill fitting pin. For starters, I made sure that I use durable tight fitting pins (in my case of ebony or boxwood material) that will 1) closely mirror the humidity and climatic expansion and contractions of the guitar’s wooden top, and, 2) will individually contour and grow accustomed to each string hole’s unique shape. (I keep away from plastic, bone, tusq, or metal pins because they potentially would seem to expand/contract from humidity and the climate generally differently than the guitar’s wooden top. So I only use wooden pins for my wood top guitar. Keeping in mind I play in a lot of different indoor and outdoor climatic environments). Then, when I change strings, I always make sure that whatever bridge pin was used on each of the 6 strings, always remains the same bridge pin used in the same pin hole. That ensures that once a bridge pin is properly shaped and always holding for say the 6th string, isn’t randomly next being used say for the first string’s bridge hole, which may have a minor nuance to its shape and end up being ill fitting out of the blue. I’ve managed to keep well fitting individual bridge pins aligned to the string hole they are best fitted and adapted to for now for probably a couple of decades and the described problem has never resurfaced. Just my experience. Works for me. QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 It sounds like the ball end may be starting to pull into the pin hole, even though it appears seated on the plate. The vertical load of the string then wedges the ball end into the pin slot and pops the pin out. This is an inherent potential problem with slotted pins, particularly when you start to get some wear in the bridgeplate at the pin holes. The guy working on my 1950 J-45 is doing bridgeplate repairs, including filling and re-drilling the pin holes for a better fit. He has also convinced me to go to unslotted pins, putting the string slot into the bridge, top, and bridgeplate rather than using slotted pins. He said as a short-run solution, just rotate the pins 180 degrees, as jedzep says, so that they function as un-slotted pins. It's worth a try, and it costs nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 30, 2019 Author Share Posted March 30, 2019 Thanks lads I'm a little perplexed at turning the pin around with the slot away from the string? I know this can be done if the bridge has a notch cut for the string , but are you guys suggesting that I can do it now ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Thanks lads I'm a little perplexed at turning the pin around with the slot away from the string? I know this can be done if the bridge has a notch cut for the string , but are you guys suggesting that I can do it now ?? Isn't there a little notch? There should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 30, 2019 Author Share Posted March 30, 2019 Isn't there a little notch? There should be. Why do the pins have notches then ? Every day is a day at school isn't it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 It sounds like the ball end may be starting to pull into the pin hole, even though it appears seated on the plate. The vertical load of the string then wedges the ball end into the pin slot and pops the pin out. This is an inherent potential problem with slotted pins, particularly when you start to get some wear in the bridgeplate at the pin holes. I never thought much about the physics of what's going on at the bridgeplate, but apparently the person working on your 1950 has. Being able to have a chat with the guitar doc with guitar on the bench is a fine way to get to know more about guitars, and with guitars that have turned a mile or two, those chats are almost bound to happen. Something that was always a concern with using short-lived strings, like the Martin SP's- every time that ball end seats under tension . . . They might be a good sounding string set, but long lasting strings or just enjoying the Nick Drake dead string sound might make for less wear under there. The plate, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard McCoy Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Perhaps the bridge pin sits too loosely, i.e. the bridge pin is either too narrow to sit tight or the bridge pin hole is reamed out too much (through use or otherwise) to make it a tight fit when strung up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Thanks lads I'm a little perplexed at turning the pin around with the slot away from the string? I know this can be done if the bridge has a notch cut for the string , but are you guys suggesting that I can do it now ?? Try it an see if the turned-around pin will go all the way down with the string in place after you remove and re-set it to make sure the ball end is completely exposed inside. Sometimes there's enough wear in the pin hole for this to work, sometimes not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Isn't there a little notch? There should be. Sometimes that's just a string ramp at the top, rather than a slot for the string all the way through the bridge and bridgeplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 30, 2019 Author Share Posted March 30, 2019 Sometimes that's just a string ramp at the top, rather than a slot for the string all the way through the bridge and bridgeplate. That's what I have And kinda all I've ever seen Good I didn't take the advice and ram it in eh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 That's what I have And kinda all I've ever seen Good I didn't take the advice and ram it in eh ? It really depends on how well the pins fit in the holes as to whether a turned-around pin will work in an unslotted bridgeplate. The low E is probably least likely to work just because of the string diameter, unless there is a lot of wear. Bridge pin fit is a bit of a nightmare. Just go on Bob Colosi's website and look at all the size options just for different generations of Gibsons and Martins. Even then, you don't know what has actually been used in your guitar, especially if it is an older one without the original pins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 As Nick kind of mentioned, a little wear at the bottom of the pin hole/bridge plate can make for frustrating reoccurrences. Take a look with the pin & string out, and another look with just the pin in. You might observe enough space for string/ball vibrations to work against the pin causing the pop up. If so easy fix is to just ream that pin hole for the next size pin. Expensive fix - new plate. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 30, 2019 Author Share Posted March 30, 2019 Cheers bigkahuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Of course, jammin' it in is something we erudite git people wouldn't do, but this thread shows that the smallest things can matter big. I'm pretty anal about proper ball end seating, sometimes laying it down in and 'jigging' it into place like I'm fishing for our famous local Otsego Lake bass, now disappearing because of zebra mussel contamination from outside area boaters. That's another kettle of fish. (youch) When my Martin continuously dropped it's bass tone after a short time with fresh strings, I started to feel discouraged like I wasn't going to ever bond with that guitar. I finally dropped a mirror after noticing the appearance of the string wrapping peaking over the saddle on 6th and 5th, and even a little on the 4th, so I saw they were gradually burrowing past the plate and becoming more and more muted. That's when I spun the pins and those ball ends stayed flat on the plate. It was almost like a NGD. That was a couple weeks ago and it's gotten back up high in the playing rotation, but then again, mine are all hard to put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Sometimes that's just a string ramp at the top, rather than a slot for the string all the way through the bridge and bridgeplate. Oh, that's right. 'Was watching the luth ramp the slots on the bridge with a tiny saw, carefully keeping an angle while sawing to avoid sawing into the bridgeplate. Luckily, bridgeplate repairs don't always require a new plate. Nick had mentioned some repair getting done to that area on his 1950 J-45; did the luthier mention if he was going to do the sawdust and cyanoacrylate (Super Glue)? When the old SJ was in for a similar repair, I had a chance to ask if the luthier had seen the StewMac Bridge Saver. . . he said he had, but liked the results with sawdust & superglue better. Minimally invasive, and the ball ends go up against a harder surface than maple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Oh, that's right. 'Was watching the luth ramp the slots on the bridge with a tiny saw, carefully keeping an angle while sawing to avoid sawing into the bridgeplate. Luckily, bridgeplate repairs don't always require a new plate. Nick had mentioned some repair getting done to that area on his 1950 J-45; did the luthier mention if he was going to do the sawdust and cyanoacrylate (Super Glue)? When the old SJ was in for a similar repair, I had a chance to ask if the luthier had seen the StewMac Bridge Saver. . . he said he had, but liked the results with sawdust & superglue better. Minimally invasive, and the ball ends go up against a harder surface than maple. He has his own methods, sometimes using filled resin, depending on how bad the damage is. Whatever he uses, I trust him. The bridgeplate isn't that bad. There is tearout between three of the holes, and just a bit of wear around couple of the holes. I just shipped him a set of Antique Acoustics un-slotted black pins in size 2A, which seems right for the period, and is the same size I have in there now. Those pins are the black plastic ones I took out of my L-OO to put in Colosi bone pins. The Antique Acoustics pins will be placeholders until I can get Bob Colosi to make me a set of dark-dyed bone pins in the same size. My guy is really keen on tight coupling between the pins and the top. It makes sense, but it can also be a bit of work to get it right. I've been pretty casual over time about pin fit, but he's got me paying attention to details. Like most guys who build guitars as well as repairing them, he has his own ideas, and marches to his own strummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Yep, that 'pressure point' is a big deal. Funny when you explain this stuff to friends who casually ask about our guitars and how they 'work'. You can watch their eyes glaze over. We, however, get all charged up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Last couple of gigs for me have been with a blues rock band , bring the j15 Guitar has been 100% for my solo gigs in the past with no issues although they're a much more gentle affair Both gugs the low E bridge pin kept popping up , guitar kept going out of tune I've been playing for over 30 years and I know how to string up , but after first gig I doubted myself and loosened strings and peeked inside to make sure ball end was seated , which it was I put it down to the pixies as blues king calls them , but last nights gig same thing happened Anyone ever experienced this ? While it could be a Pixie problem, or a Guitar Fairy problem, unfortunately in Ireland you also have Banshees and as suspected for your case, Lowden Fairies. :blink: :blink: :blink: Now there are a few types of Lowden Fairies......the honest types that point out to you that if you had a nice Lowden, you get Pinless Bridges and no possibility of bridge pins falling off or out or sticking or breaking or ruining the bridge plate, or even ruining the value of your guitfiddle! Then there are the sneaky types of Lowden Fairies known for swapping bridge pins from guitars while you are not looking.... the sneaky types also like to line up your tuning pegs nicely in a row, also while you are not looking.... or after you break a string, you discover the bridge pins have been put in and secured with .....a hammer, and are there for possibly forever! And then we have the full evil Lowden Fairies, known for breaking strings on your first song of the set, knowing well you have no spare, or worse....make the whole bridge fly off or the neck fall apart! But their most famous trick is to move your guitar from the stand and lay it on your chair...... (Just put down my beautiful Lowden O22 after playing it in DADGAD with a capo on the 5th fret - there are places near there with lots of good Lowden Fairies! ) BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (Just put down my beautiful Lowden O22 after playing it in DADGAD with a capo on the 5th fret - there are places near there with lots of good Lowden Fairies! ) BluesKing777. That's a big, beautiful guitar. I'd like to play one of those someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 That's a big, beautiful guitar. I'd like to play one of those someday. Made by Lowden angels! Absolute stunning workmanship. A friend spend ages just gazing at the top and back after he thought they were one piece.... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 31, 2019 Author Share Posted March 31, 2019 Dadgad and open tunings is where lowdens really excell They're none too bad anytime really I had one and moved it on , gorgeous guitars but not for me Almost closer to works of art than instruments Grand pianos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holiday Hoser Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 I noticed if I rough up the pin a little with some sandpaper it grips better. Old guitar and pin tend to have a little shine there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Dadgad and open tunings is where lowdens really excell They're none too bad anytime really I had one and moved it on , gorgeous guitars but not for me Almost closer to works of art than instruments Grand pianos Not to hijack your slippery bridge pin thread too much, so I know some people say the pinless bridges like the Lowdens use can fly off. I have not had any problems at all, so I wonder what is the reason just about all acoustic guitar makers give us this Martin/Gibson style bridge and pins and bridgeplates and saddles and endless dramas....instead of the pinless? Must be a reason there....? BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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