Does filing down Nashville saddles reduce sustain?

[Jimbo]

I'm curious to know what people here think.

Does filing down the saddle slots to a point where the groove on one or more strings is more than half the depth of the string compromise tone/sustain?

 

The reason I ask is that the saddles on my 2006 SG standard always seemed to have been cut too deep on the G and D (but more particularly the G string) compared to the other strings, making chords dull sounding.Raising the action in the standard way makes the action too high on the other strings so that isn't really the answer.

 

Is it worth carefully taking a "V" shaped file to deepen the slots in the other strings, then raise the action to compensate at the top and bottom E hence achieving a higher action in the G and D? I have seen one or two people on the internet putting forward the theory that to maximise tone and sustain you should minimise the amount of contact between the string and the saddle, and that filing a saddle down with a "V" shaped file increases the overall amount of contact,and therefore is a bad thing for intonation,tone and sustain.

 

I'd like to know if people have an opinion on whether this theory is true or not.

[L5Larry]

I'm sure someone else with chime in on the theory behind your question, but let me address the mechanics of filing your saddle slots.

 

First, a triangular file will not be thin enough to deepen any but maybe the low E and A slots. You'll need a different tool for the smaller string slots. But lets say you've got your slots all cut tot he depth you want them to be, I would think all you need to do to get back to your proper depth is take a flat file and file the top off the saddles down to where you want to be on you depth/radious ratio.

 

Just an idea.

[Jimbo]

I'm sure someone else with chime in on the theory behind your question' date=' but let me address the mechanics of filing your saddle slots.

 

First, a triangular file will not be thin enough to deepen any but maybe the low E and A slots. You'll need a different tool for the smaller string slots. But lets say you've got your slots all cut tot he depth you want them to be, I would think all you need to do to get back to your proper depth is take a flat file and file the top off the saddles down to where you want to be on you depth/radious ratio.

 

Just an idea.[/quote']

 

That sounds logical enough to me,I am getting some replacement saddles anyway, there's no loss I suppose if I experiment with the ones that I'm not happy with.I have got a replacement set if I mess it up.Wondering whether Graph tec, are any good, I hear they brighten the tone to some ears, and deaden it to others.

[80LPC]

I'm curious to know what people here think.

Does filing down the saddle slots to a point where the groove on one or more strings is more than half the depth of the string compromise tone/sustain?

 

In my opinion' date=' I don't think it creates a problem with tone or sustain. Anything that would interfere with the vibration of the string would affect tone and sustain, but the string doesn't vibrate on the saddle. If the break angle is sufficient, the groove cut at the right angle and the saddle has a clean edge, the string will vibrate from that clean edge. I would add that it does not look professional to have deep slots, and it would affect right hand damping on the bridge.

 

 

Is it worth carefully taking a "V" shaped file to deepen the slots in the other strings, then raise the action to compensate at the top and bottom E hence achieving a higher action in the G and D? I have seen one or two people on the internet putting forward the theory that to maximise tone and sustain you should minimise the amount of contact between the string and the saddle, and that filing a saddle down with a "V" shaped file increases the overall amount of contact,and therefore is a bad thing for intonation,tone and sustain.

 

Knife edge, or triangular needle files might appear to be suitable, but just as you wouldn't use such a file on the nut, the same applies to the bridge saddles. You can buy handy sets of needle files at low cost, and the selection of profiles might appear to cover the different sizes, but to be safe, don't use them. Due to the way they are made, the knife and V profiles don't actually meet at a sharp edge. Get a scrap of wood, and cut grooves on a corner. Now get a strong magnifying glass (some of the best lenses can be salvaged from throwaway / old cameras). Hold the wood up to the light and examine the grooves. You will see that you have created a 'double notch'. Cutting slots/grooves for strings correctly takes some skill. I would let a repair guy do this work. To bring groove depth back to standard, he could reprofile the tops of the saddles, but then your plating has gone. An alternative would be to fit a set of new saddles - they are available in different finishes.

[Jimbo]

 

Knife edge' date=' or triangular needle files might appear to be suitable, but just as you wouldn't use such a file on the nut, the same applies to the bridge saddles. You can buy handy sets of needle files at low cost, and the selection of profiles might appear to cover the different sizes, but to be safe, don't use them. Due to the way they are made, the knife and V profiles don't actually meet at a sharp edge. Get a scrap of wood, and cut grooves on a corner. Now get a strong magnifying glass (some of the best lenses can be salvaged from throwaway / old cameras). Hold the wood up to the light and examine the grooves. You will see that you have created a 'double notch'. Cutting slots/grooves for strings correctly takes some skill. I would let a repair guy do this work. To bring groove depth back to standard, he could reprofile the tops of the saddles, but then your plating has gone. An alternative would be to fit a set of new saddles - they are available in different finishes.

[/quote']

 

 

Thanks:

I think I will recognise the limits of my capabilities and go down the route of finally resolving the issue with a new set of saddles.I tend to break the Top E more often than I think I should for 11 guage strings, even though I have checked for burr in the saddle,made sure that the string is not breaking over the back of the bridge and also applied some pencil graphite to the slots. With that in mind- are graph tech string saver a good option for a gibson? (aside from the cosmetic difference in colour).

[80LPC]

Jimbo, is your high E breaking at the saddle ? It's possible that the groove in the saddle has been cut at a steep angle. This would mean that your string bears on a small knife edge. I would clean the saddle with a toothbrush, and inspect it closely. Do your strings have any corrosion ? A wipe down with a slightly damp micro-fibre cloth before putting the guitar in it's case will prolong string life.

 

It seems there is a change in tone with the Graph-tech saddles. The company admits a loss in the 2Khz region. But the graphite / composite material will certainly be kinder to the strings. If your string breakage problems continue, it would seem a good investment.

 

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=3

[Jimbo]

Jimbo' date=' is your high E breaking at the saddle ? It's possible that the groove in the saddle has been cut at a steep angle. This would mean that your string bears on a small knife edge. I would clean the saddle with a toothbrush, and inspect it closely. Do your strings have any corrosion ? A wipe down with a slightly damp micro-fibre cloth before putting the guitar in it's case will prolong string life.

 

It seems there is a change in tone with the Graph-tech saddles. The company admits a loss in the 2Khz region. But the graphite / composite material will certainly be kinder to the strings. If your string breakage problems continue, it would seem a good investment.

 

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=3[/quote']

 

"A loss in the 2Khz region"- Sorry, I'm not at all technical- does that mean a loss in volume, treble, mid, bass or sustain?-or something else altogether? Thats' interesting anyway,and an admission from the company that I missed in all the publicity bumf and reviews I looked at, (although I suspected that there might be some effect).

I have cleaned and inspected the saddle for burr,corrosion and I cant detect any-as long as the Graph tech's dont radically change the charater of how my SG sounds I think I will give them a go.

[80LPC]

2Khz is in the treble region - some Graph-tech customers have reported noticing this. A loss means these frequencies are reduced in volume. The company says words to the effect of 'with time you will notice an improvement in other frequencies'. This sounds slightly apologetic to me.

However, the advantage is less string breakages - and you could use the bright switch on the Laney to compensate if there is any treble loss !

[lpdeluxe]

I'll bet that the difference will be less than what you will hear from changing strings. It's the overall construction of the SG that mostly affects the tone (including, of course, the electronics) and the infinitesimal difference in mass of saddles would likely have next to no effect. After all, the saddles are under considerable tension, which couples them to the overall mass of the guitar.

 

You might try changing guitar straps and see how much difference that makes.

[Jimbo]

2Khz is in the treble region - some Graph-tech customers have reported noticing this. A loss means these frequencies are reduced in volume. The company says words to the effect of 'with time you will notice an improvement in other frequencies'. This sounds slightly apologetic to me.

However' date=' the advantage is less string breakages - and you could use the bright switch on the Laney to compensate if there is any treble loss ![/quote']

 

Thanks guys!-A slight loss in treble would be no big deal to me at all, as I usually have it no higher than 5.5 on the amp max,and as you rightly point out should have plently of scope to compensate at the amp if need be.This reassures me about the graphite option, and this is how I think I will go.

[80LPC]

the infinitesimal difference in mass of saddles would likely have next to no effect. After all' date=' the saddles are under considerable tension, which couples them to the overall mass of the guitar.[/quote']

 

Yes, the difference in mass will be small. But there is another important factor. Rigidity - and here is where the metal saddles will retain the high frequency content of the vibrating strings. Synthetic materials are more flexible and act as dampers - this is the reason for the 2Khz dip. Watch the 'graphite' nut on a Strat with non-locking trem. As you dive-bomb you can see the nut material flexing slightly. Try the same with a brass nut - no movement.

 

You might try changing guitar straps and see how much difference that makes.

 

Now you are just being silly.

[Jimbo]

 

Now you are just being silly.

 

Maybe he means a graphite strap?? Ha Ha

[Kurt]

You might try changing guitar straps and see how much difference that makes.

 

HEY that´s my point!

 

But I have to admit that 80LPC knows a lot about guitars, down to things I wouldn´t even think of. And of course every change will affect the sound of a guitar in some way. But the question is whether you´ll notice it. Whether it can be compensated with different amp settings. And whether maybe you´ll like it better than before. In my opinion the only way to find out is to give it a try. We´re not talking about thousands of pounds to waste, those saddles won´t cost a fortune and if you don´t like `em you can sell `em via e-bay or something like that.

 

Greetings

Kurt

[Jimbo]

 

HEY that´s my point!

 

But I have to admit that 80LPC knows a lot about guitars' date=' down to things I wouldn´t even think of. And of course every change will affect the sound of a guitar in some way. But the question is whether you´ll notice it. Whether it can be compensated with different amp settings. And whether maybe you´ll like it better than before. In my opinion the only way to find out is to give it a try. We´re not talking about thousands of pounds to waste, those saddles won´t cost a fortune and if you don´t like `em you can sell `em via e-bay or something like that.

 

Greetings

Kurt[/quote']

 

Quite right, I could quite possibly prefer the changed sound, plus, if I wanted loads of treble I should have kept my Fender 6 years ago.