New Amplified Rig: J45 Vintage > Shure Beta 57a > Bose S1

[thegreatgumbino]

I had been leaning heavily towards mic'ing my J45 Vintage (no p/u) instead of drilling it to add a SBT, and BBG's thread about using a p/u and a mic on acoustic for gigging  and Murph's insight in said thread  pushed me to purchase my first mic amplified setup last night.   I went to GC and played the LBM, S1, and L1C.  I went in thinking I would want the L1C (and still wonder if I should get it over the S1), but the demo unit in the store was wonky.  I think the guitar input jack was bad as the cable worked on multiple amps.  Additionally, I have seen a couple used L1C's for the same price as the new S1.  The portability of the S1 and the Bluetooth capability is pretty handy for sure.

In the end, I brought home a Bose S1 Pro, Shure Beta 57a for the guitar, and a Sennheiser e935 for vocals.  First time singing and playing amplified, which was pretty intimidating at first, but fun once I let loose.  Amplification is quite the rabbit hole!

I want to pickup a Digitech Trio + to play with, but the Ditto x2 looks to be a better looper.  I'm still toying with the idea of getting a T1 ToneMatch so 1) my buddies can plug in and 2) I believe I need to convert the mic XLR to a TRS to run to most pedals.  Am I thinking correctly that I can run the 57A > T1 > Pedal(s) > S1?  It seems like I have to run the  volume pretty hot on the S1 to hear the guitar.  I realize this is partly a function of how close the mic is, but will adding a preamp (T1) with Gain help this?  I realize there are cheaper mixers, but it seem seems the T1 is a perfect match for the S1/L1C.  Additionally, I would like to be able to monitor with headphones.  I know the Digitech has a headphone jack.  Is there another option to gain this functionality?

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by thegreatgumbino

[Murph]

I'm a huge fan of the little S1-Pro. With the 2 mic inputs and Bluetooth, it's very versatile and sounds incredible for it's size. I use mine all the time.

My L1-Compact gives a breath of large, airy quality and spread to the line out of the S1-Pro.

I also have a Yamaha mg10xu mixer that I've used a few times with the L1-Compact with a duo that worked quite well. It has some delays if you're into that.

I'm becoming a "Naturalist" and really don't care for any effects and digital coloring of a great sounding guitar. Some acoustic players will have larger pedalboards than electric rock guitarist nowadays, but I just don't care for it. 

Best of luck in your quest.

[uncle fester]

10 hours ago, thegreatgumbino said:

It seems like I have to run the  volume pretty hot on the S1 to hear the guitar.  

 

Found the same with a similar set up, you did have to run the SM57 mic pretty close to the guitar but you can do it.   I recommend recording yourself with the recording device somewhere in the proximity where you feel the audience will be.  In smaller places anyways, they hear what's coming out of the amp and your guitar, and the balance between the two was not what I expected.

[thegreatgumbino]

3 hours ago, billroy said:

Found the same with a similar set up, you did have to run the SM57 mic pretty close to the guitar but you can do it.   I recommend recording yourself with the recording device somewhere in the proximity where you feel the audience will be.  In smaller places anyways, they hear what's coming out of the amp and your guitar, and the balance between the two was not what I expected.

 

Did you stick with this setup or did you move to something different after experimentation?

[Buc McMaster]

What is your intended use of this setup?  Busking?  Open mics?  House parties?  While an open microphone on an acoustic guitar arguably provides the best acoustic tone, unless used under very controlled circumstances they are sadly lacking in efficiency.  As noted, it's difficult to get consistent volume from the guitar, it being a moving target, and dialing up the gain to compensate generally results in feedback problems.   A mic'ed guitar is very nice for quiet home sessions with a few friends, where there's not a lot of volume required to compete with a noisy room, or in a concert hall where the acoustics are right and there's a system dedicated to delivering top-notch sound.  Outside of those situations an open mic on an acoustic guitar is usually a nightmare.  Completely impractical for hitting open mic stages as the setup/sound check stuff takes too long and would be frowned upon by other players and the host.  Don't mean to rain on your parade but you'll find you're much better off with an on-board pickup of some kind and leave the microphone for the vocals.  Been there, done that......too many times.

[blindboygrunt]

2 hours ago, Buc McMaster said:

What is your intended use of this setup?  Busking?  Open mics?  House parties?  While an open microphone on an acoustic guitar arguably provides the best acoustic tone, unless used under very controlled circumstances they are sadly lacking in efficiency.  As noted, it's difficult to get consistent volume from the guitar, it being a moving target, and dialing up the gain to compensate generally results in feedback problems.   A mic'ed guitar is very nice for quiet home sessions with a few friends, where there's not a lot of volume required to compete with a noisy room, or in a concert hall where the acoustics are right and there's a system dedicated to delivering top-notch sound.  Outside of those situations an open mic on an acoustic guitar is usually a nightmare.  Completely impractical for hitting open mic stages as the setup/sound check stuff takes too long and would be frowned upon by other players and the host.  Don't mean to rain on your parade but you'll find you're much better off with an on-board pickup of some kind and leave the microphone for the vocals.  Been there, done that......too many times.

This train of thought is what made me ask about adding/ mixing a microphone into the setup 

if i was the type of performer who's audience sat and listened to every breath then of course I'd just mic up and nothin else,  but theres a hell of a lot of positives from a pickup when paying live , and not playing live,  makes the strings come alive , nuances that you couldnt do before ....

Blah blah blah 

[thegreatgumbino]

2 hours ago, Buc McMaster said:

What is your intended use of this setup?  Busking?  Open mics?  House parties?  While an open microphone on an acoustic guitar arguably provides the best acoustic tone, unless used under very controlled circumstances they are sadly lacking in efficiency.  As noted, it's difficult to get consistent volume from the guitar, it being a moving target, and dialing up the gain to compensate generally results in feedback problems.   A mic'ed guitar is very nice for quiet home sessions with a few friends, where there's not a lot of volume required to compete with a noisy room, or in a concert hall where the acoustics are right and there's a system dedicated to delivering top-notch sound.  Outside of those situations an open mic on an acoustic guitar is usually a nightmare.  Completely impractical for hitting open mic stages as the setup/sound check stuff takes too long and would be frowned upon by other players and the host.  Don't mean to rain on your parade but you'll find you're much better off with an on-board pickup of some kind and leave the microphone for the vocals.  Been there, done that......too many times.

 

Practicing/playing around he house with the occasional jam with buddies.  Maybe the occasional house party.  Really, it's an exercise in pushing myself to get used to being amplified so I'm not fearful of it if the opportunity arises where I get to do an open mic or something.  This first setup is really about learning.  It was time to s**t or get off the pot.  I can read about this stuff all day, but until I jump in and experience it, it's just words on a page.  

I recognize there are feedback issues at play and see the value in a p/u.  My limited playing with the setup so far has definitely made this evident.  Ultimately, it's about drilling the hole in the guitar.  For whatever reason, I keep going back and forth on this.  Part of my apprehension with drilling the guitar is not really trusting anyone in Houston to do it, granted I haven't ever used Yano for any work.  I've been disappointed in some form or fashion with most of the techs/luthiers I've tried in the area.  I am relatively handy, but don't want to do this for the first time on such an expensive guitar.

Additionally, by the time I pay for someone to drill the hole and buy a p/u and a preamp, you're looking at a decent chunk of change as well.  If you add a Tonedexter to try and refine the sound, then you're really spending some cash.  Gas is a fickle beast, and I have history with high end playback gear and live recording gear, which was always a search for the best tone/sound.  I can see amplification being the same rabbit hole.

[Jim Wilson]

I have to agree with some of the others...I think you are over-thinking the whole thing.  Those who successfully mic their guitars (Gillian Welch for one) spend quite a bit of time at sound check getting things just right...like an hour or better.  You will be far more successful with an onboard pickup of some kind ( I like the K&K Pure Mini), a good preamp,  and a good acoustic guitar amp.  Most of the time, when we play out, we plug into whatever house system is available.  This is especially true at Open Mic events.  I have the Fishman Loudbox Professional acoustic amp, but use it only about 1/3 of the time on the road.  The rest of the time I am plugged into a house system.  However, I get a lot of use out of the Fishman amp at home...rehearsing.

[Buc McMaster]

32 minutes ago, thegreatgumbino said:

.....not really trusting anyone in Houston to do it......

Neil Sargent is very good but quite the cantankerous old soul.......and he's usually stacked up and it takes a bit to get the work done.  Dave at Rockin' Robin is a very agreeable fellow and quite good........he works in the shop in the front of the store alone, there are some other techs in another shop toward the back.......I'd go to him.  In any case, fear not the drilling of a hole in your precious.  It's done everyday and is one of those always successful jobs..........it's really no big deal.  I did mine myself in my J-45 V, leaving the stock strap button and placing the pickup jack behind it.......I hate having to open up the hole on a strap to make it fit those big honkin' strap jacks.  It's a tool and if you want to make good use of it in a new way (playing amplified) you got to make some adjustments to your tool.

[BluesKing777]

 

You (mainly) Yankees keep going around in circles with this stuff.

If I was playing at a bar tonight, not, I would, like most Australian acoustic guitarists including Tommy Emmanuel, take my Maton with the world’s best pickup system which includes an internal mic. This system with pickup and mic is so realistic that once you play it, the rest is forgotten. Most people plug it straight to a PA. It is that good.

I appreciate it more because I use to play solo with a mic only and it was hopeless. Blah, blah as BBG says. Feedback, no volume. No monitor volume. People making noises louder than your guitar. People talking. The only, only way you can get the needed volume is to have NO monitors and use headphones or in-ear monitors. But it mucks up your hair.😑

So the next thing everyone here says, again, is that: “But BK, I want to play my Gibson J45 I just bought, not a Maton.” And off we go again to the world of mics in front of it or using the pickup that came with it or getting a pickup installed and buying an amp, PA, truck, van, BMW? Good luck, it is a mine field.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

[Buc McMaster]

Seems we Yanks have done quite well over the years with the gear we’ve had.   Glad you’re happy with yours, but we’re happy with ours too.  

[thegreatgumbino]

4 hours ago, Buc McMaster said:

Neil Sargent is very good but quite the cantankerous old soul.......and he's usually stacked up and it takes a bit to get the work done.  Dave at Rockin' Robin is a very agreeable fellow and quite good........he works in the shop in the front of the store alone, there are some other techs in another shop toward the back.......I'd go to him.  In any case, fear not the drilling of a hole in your precious.  It's done everyday and is one of those always successful jobs..........it's really no big deal.  I did mine myself in my J-45 V, leaving the stock strap button and placing the pickup jack behind it.......I hate having to open up the hole on a strap to make it fit those big honkin' strap jacks.  It's a tool and if you want to make good use of it in a new way (playing amplified) you got to make some adjustments to your tool.

 

Neil was my go to guy for several guitars, but the last guitar I took to him  I wasn't satisfied with the work he did.  I tried out Mike Nedd for a couple guitars after that and was extremely disappointed in the work, price and the turnaround.  I can't recommend him at all.  Great Southern did some work for me after that and did decent setups, but they did a poor re-install of the Trance sbt pickups on my problematic SCSJ.  Maybe I just have too high of expectations.

 I may try out Dave and have him drill the J45V.  The more I play with the mic'd guitar, I can see the value of a pickup or a p/u and mic combo.  Just another rabbit hole to venture.  Too many decisions...first world problems. 

 

[uncle fester]

18 hours ago, thegreatgumbino said:

 

Did you stick with this setup or did you move to something different after experimentation?

I ultimately put a K&K pick up in, but you do have to drill the end pin jack.  Before  I did that, to see if I liked using a pickup - I got a dean markely soundhole pick up.  A bit quacky, but you can address that with the tone / bass controls on the S1.  If you dont want to drill the end pin, there's quite a few good soundhole pick ups, but I didn't like leaving it in all the time.

[kidblast]

16 hours ago, blindboygrunt said:

and This train of thought is what made me ask about adding/ mixing a microphone into the setup 

if i was the type of performer who's audience sat and listened to every breath then of course I'd just mic up and nothin else,  but theres a hell of a lot of positives from a pickup when paying live , and not playing live,  makes the strings come alive , nuances that you couldnt do before ....

Blah blah blah 

I have an S1, they are excellent..  you can do a lot of different things with it.  Today I have a gig at an Elks club, outside, I am using two EV powered speaker,  the S1 will be behind me, used as a monitor

and yep, as Grunt says, --  Crowd Noise, something you're always going to have unless you're playing in a church.. (seriously...)  In fact, while on vacation about a year ago, the guitar player at a catholic church (with a VERY good sound system) miked his guitar,  despite it was during Mass, you still could not hear the guitar well.

If the aim is to work at restaurants, lounges, patios, pubs,   open mics,,  people are going to make as much noise as we are, if not more.  

Getting the best sounding,  or at least, a GOOD sounding on board pickup you can find, is really the only way to survive every situation especially if your working solo and there's no one running a sound board for you.    There are pre-amps that can take the on board pickup sound, and make it sound much better, (Tonedexter is one.  there's been several discussions of these right here.  These just work..)  like many here that been at a lot of rodeos,  40+ years for me, IMHO, I don't see any other hassle free, 100% solution, you can probably get by with mic'ing some times, maybe,  I wouldn't even bother to try. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by kidblast

[Murph]

Sigh......

 

[Murph]

Like I said, this 1933 Gibson mandolin has no pickup.

Live, loud and feedback free. It ain't rocket science and people do it ALL THE TIME.

Just sayin'...

[BluesKing777]

 

It is the middle of winter here....

I saw at least 2 people get in their cars that are covered in ice and drive off. (one through a stop sign!) I moved mine out to get another out of the nice warm garage and I was driving the first one blind down the drive).

Just saying that because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.

But the OP will have to make up his own mind, because everyone here has different advice!

 

BluesKing777.

 

[uncle fester]

woulda shoulda coulda...    I thought this through and wanting to help out, have provided a go forward roadmap for the OP.

1. *soundhole pickup...  it will last 1 mo, I recommend skipping this step, but doubt you will, (dean markely will get the job done, sunrise would be really nice.)
2. *K&K... requires end pin jack, but so be it, it is where you will end up....  get a fire eye red eye pre amp as well
3. *Tone dexter + Edwina mic... down the road just a little bit, but once your happy with the K&K, but then you realize you can get even closer to amplified acoustic nirvana (and it would give you the edwina mic for those times you do / can go acoustic only).  (BK - I'm planning the edwina to be used with the K&K to build the wavemap, any reason this is wrong?)

'welcome.

Edited June 24, 2019 by billroy

[BluesKing777]

32 minutes ago, billroy said:

woulda shoulda coulda...    I thought this through and wanting to help out, have provided a go forward roadmap for the OP.

1. *soundhole pickup...  it will last 1 mo, I recommend skipping this step, but doubt you will, (dean markely will get the job done, sunrise would be really nice.)
2. *K&K... requires end pin jack, but so be it, it is where you will end up....  get a fire eye red eye pre amp as well
3. *Tone dexter + Edwina mic... down the road just a little bit, but once your happy with the K&K, but then you realize you can get even closer to amplified acoustic nirvana (and it would give you the edwina mic for those times you do / can go acoustic only).  (BK - I'm planning the edwina to be used with the K&K to build the wavemap, any reason this is wrong?)

'welcome.

 

I have never used an Edwina, though a lot of people like them.

That said, if you read the Tonedexter instructions, they recommend a number of mics that they have tried - mainly small body condensers. I use my Neumann KM184 and wholly recommend it, but it is quite expensive (I already owned it for recording acoustic guitar) and a lot of people have success with a Shure SM81. I think, could be wrong, the Edwina type mic are more for 'vocal' plus guitar? But of course in the way of things, a friend from AGF uses only an Edwina with success !

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

[thegreatgumbino]

17 hours ago, billroy said:

woulda shoulda coulda...    I thought this through and wanting to help out, have provided a go forward roadmap for the OP.

1. *soundhole pickup...  it will last 1 mo, I recommend skipping this step, but doubt you will, (dean markely will get the job done, sunrise would be really nice.)
2. *K&K... requires end pin jack, but so be it, it is where you will end up....  get a fire eye red eye pre amp as well
3. *Tone dexter + Edwina mic... down the road just a little bit, but once your happy with the K&K, but then you realize you can get even closer to amplified acoustic nirvana (and it would give you the edwina mic for those times you do / can go acoustic only).  (BK - I'm planning the edwina to be used with the K&K to build the wavemap, any reason this is wrong?)

'welcome.

 

1) I originally investigated the Sunrise pickup, but decided against this route.

2) I have ruled out a K&K for a couple reasons.  

3) I can foresee myself getting a ToneDexter at some point.  Don't think I'll buy an Edwina, even though they look and sound amazing.  Just not in the cards for that much cash.  Now, if I get the ToneDexter, I'd love to find someone that has one close to me who'd let me use it to create some wave maps.

 

Prior to this guitar, I had a 2015 SCSJ Supreme with the Trance Amulet M-VT, which was one of the reasons I purchased the guitar.  I'm probably going this route for the 2018 J45 Vintage.  I need to measure the bridge plate in the Vintage to make sure the transducers will fit.  On the SCSJ, the bridge plate was too small to fit them properly, which created issues.

I borrowed a Martin D Jr. with electronics to try out with the S1.  The ease of use is a plus, and the sound is much louder than the SM57a Beta mic'ing the guitar.  Granted, I could get a mixer to plug the mic in and increase the gain for more sound.  

Current thought process is J45V > Trance Amulet M-VT > Bose S1 Pro for easy portable use.  Some wishishlist items I'd like to play with include:

1) Mixer (either a used T1 or a battery powered option) to allow for a buddy to plug in guitar & mic as well.  Also want the headphone output.

2) ToneDexter

3) Digitech Trio +

4) Ditto X2 Jam Looper

5) TC Helicon Play Acoustic

Edited June 25, 2019 by thegreatgumbino

[Jinder]

On 6/24/2019 at 11:44 PM, billroy said:

woulda shoulda coulda...    I thought this through and wanting to help out, have provided a go forward roadmap for the OP.

1. *soundhole pickup...  it will last 1 mo, I recommend skipping this step, but doubt you will, (dean markely will get the job done, sunrise would be really nice.)
2. *K&K... requires end pin jack, but so be it, it is where you will end up....  get a fire eye red eye pre amp as well
3. *Tone dexter + Edwina mic... down the road just a little bit, but once your happy with the K&K, but then you realize you can get even closer to amplified acoustic nirvana (and it would give you the edwina mic for those times you do / can go acoustic only).  (BK - I'm planning the edwina to be used with the K&K to build the wavemap, any reason this is wrong?)

'welcome.

It's all a question of taste, but after 23yrs of playing out (the last 21 of those as a full-time working musician), I've tried 99% of amplification solutions and have found soundhole pickups to be the best combination of practicality and musicality, particularly the Sunrise. I now have two which serve in my Maple AJ and my D18GE prototype. I love K&K but the Pure Mini doesn't suit every guitar. My Hummingbird 12 string sounds incredible with its K&K, but my 6s need pickups that will work in ANY given situation, feedback free and powerful. The Sunrise with my AD-10 is exactly that, and just gets the job done perfectly. It's a pro bit of kit and my favourite of all the pickups I've owned-I'd happily settle with the Sunrise if someone asked me to choose one pickup for the rest of my days. Plus, slacken two screws and unhook a mini jack and it's out of there, so very simple to swap between guitars or take out if you're concerned about it adding weight to the top.

As for the Tonedexters, Edwinas and so forth, they're brilliant kit and excellent fun, but in terms of what you really NEED as a player to get the point across, I'm not sure it's them. 

With a decent guitar and a decent pickup, I've found over the years that there is FAR more to be gained from diligent, disciplined practice than there is from overthinking amplification solutions.

Incidentally, the Beta 57A is a GREAT mic, good choice...I have used one for vocals to great effect, even though it's sort of pushed as an instrument mic. I use a Sennheiser condenser for vocals now, but wouldn't hesitate to fire up the 57A again. Smooth and rich vocal tone with great sparkle and natural capsule compression.

[kidblast]

On 6/23/2019 at 3:59 PM, Murph said:

Like I said, this 1933 Gibson mandolin has no pickup.

Live, loud and feedback free. It ain't rocket science and people do it ALL THE TIME.

Just sayin'...

I knew this picture was coming back to this thread...

Sure, no brainer with a big sound system and someone running it.

Not the same thing as trying to stick a mic in front of your guitar at a pub during a solo gig Murph.

Surely you have been to more than enough rodeo's to at least acknowledge that is a different scenario entirely.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by kidblast

[thegreatgumbino]

3 hours ago, Jinder said:

It's all a question of taste, but after 23yrs of playing out (the last 21 of those as a full-time working musician), I've tried 99% of amplification solutions and have found soundhole pickups to be the best combination of practicality and musicality, particularly the Sunrise. I now have two which serve in my Maple AJ and my D18GE prototype. I love K&K but the Pure Mini doesn't suit every guitar. My Hummingbird 12 string sounds incredible with its K&K, but my 6s need pickups that will work in ANY given situation, feedback free and powerful. The Sunrise with my AD-10 is exactly that, and just gets the job done perfectly. It's a pro bit of kit and my favourite of all the pickups I've owned-I'd happily settle with the Sunrise if someone asked me to choose one pickup for the rest of my days. Plus, slacken two screws and unhook a mini jack and it's out of there, so very simple to swap between guitars or take out if you're concerned about it adding weight to the top.

As for the Tonedexters, Edwinas and so forth, they're brilliant kit and excellent fun, but in terms of what you really NEED as a player to get the point across, I'm not sure it's them. 

With a decent guitar and a decent pickup, I've found over the years that there is FAR more to be gained from diligent, disciplined practice than there is from overthinking amplification solutions.

Incidentally, the Beta 57A is a GREAT mic, good choice...I have used one for vocals to great effect, even though it's sort of pushed as an instrument mic. I use a Sennheiser condenser for vocals now, but wouldn't hesitate to fire up the 57A again. Smooth and rich vocal tone with great sparkle and natural capsule compression.

 

Thanks for the info, Jinder.  I actually started out thinking I was going to get a Sunrise, but I read about problems with magnetic pickups with Monel strings (can't find it now).  I am stuck on Martin Retros and this persuaded me to look elsewhere.  

I'm assuming your Sunrise installs are run internally through the endpin and not with the cable run externally?  I was drawn to them for the external option initially since I could get away with not drilling the endpin.  Seems like it could be problematic if someone stepped on the cable and pulled the guitar over or damaged the wiring.  The removability is a plus so I could use it on future guitars and be able to play the J45V acoustically without the added weight.  

Anyone have first hand experience with using the Sunrise p/u and Monel strings?

[Jinder]

2 hours ago, thegreatgumbino said:

 

Thanks for the info, Jinder.  I actually started out thinking I was going to get a Sunrise, but I read about problems with magnetic pickups with Monel strings (can't find it now).  I am stuck on Martin Retros and this persuaded me to look elsewhere.  

I'm assuming your Sunrise installs are run internally through the endpin and not with the cable run externally?  I was drawn to them for the external option initially since I could get away with not drilling the endpin.  Seems like it could be problematic if someone stepped on the cable and pulled the guitar over or damaged the wiring.  The removability is a plus so I could use it on future guitars and be able to play the J45V acoustically without the added weight.  

Anyone have first hand experience with using the Sunrise p/u and Monel strings?

 

I've not used my Sunrise with Monel strings, but it's entirely possible-you'd just have to adjust the polepieces to accommodate for the wound strings being a lot louder than a set of PB or similar strings. I run mine installed internally with a mini jack in-line (as per the Sunrise installation kit) so the pickup can be taken out easily by disconnecting the 3.5mm mini jack inside the guitar and undoing the wing clamps. 

A Sunrise does need a good preamp to get the best out of it. The proprietary Sunrise preamp boxes are reputedly fantastic, but I have only ever used mine with my Boss AD10. I scoop a touch of the mids out, add a touch of compression, 12 o'clock on the acoustic resonance and verb and that's my tone. 

[thegreatgumbino]

1 hour ago, Jinder said:

 

I've not used my Sunrise with Monel strings, but it's entirely possible-you'd just have to adjust the polepieces to accommodate for the wound strings being a lot louder than a set of PB or similar strings. I run mine installed internally with a mini jack in-line (as per the Sunrise installation kit) so the pickup can be taken out easily by disconnecting the 3.5mm mini jack inside the guitar and undoing the wing clamps. 

A Sunrise does need a good preamp to get the best out of it. The proprietary Sunrise preamp boxes are reputedly fantastic, but I have only ever used mine with my Boss AD10. I scoop a touch of the mids out, add a touch of compression, 12 o'clock on the acoustic resonance and verb and that's my tone. 

 

Reverb.  Never mind.  

Thanks for sharing a peak into your setup, Jinder.

Edited June 26, 2019 by thegreatgumbino