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Mr.Woody

Which Banner would you buy?

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FWIW, I’ve done quite a bit of business with CME, and they will always negotiate.  

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Not me .   Theres more out there in better shape. You might have to pay abit more. But a cleaner example will hold value way better. If not increase in time. 

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No. The re-finish is unappealing and theres way too many creacks. Get the Legend if you dig the tone. Theres a reason why banners go for at least $8k

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This photo shows the guitar a little better: ofRB4IW.png?1

 

And that's what an over sprayed top looks like. An outdoor photo might've shown it in a better light. Not one for me, but that photo did give me the "I wonder what that one sounds like" thought. Many here have good things to say about CME, and they've been straight up on the description on this one.

Keep looking, or enjoy your new Legend. 

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I can see the appeal of the old banner, but it is overpriced, given the re-finish. It actually looks like a fairly decent re-finish, but it still compromises the value. It looks to have had numerous fairly sloppy repairs, such as re-glued top braces.  There is a lot of excess glue on the inside, which often indicates non-professional "repairs."The fretboard is pretty rutted, and may need a bit of work if the guitar is re-fretted at some point.

A properly-done neck re-set has no negative impact on value, and is considered normal maintenance.

It looks like  a one-piece back, which you see a fair amount in that period.

That cardboard case is inadequate protection, and is probably not original. The wear on the case is not consistent with the wear on the guitar. Add at least $150 for a half-decent standard modern J-45 case, or up to twice that for a better one.

Unless you have experience with vintage guitars, it can be difficult to evaluate both condition and playability. Things like fret and board wear, neck angle, neck twist, bridge and bridgeplate condition, etc,  have to be considered.

Without a re-finish, but in its apparent condition, the guitar might be worth a bit less than that asking price. The re-finish probably knocks at least 30% off the value, just because there are more original versions available, in better condition.

Play them both, and make the call. The Legend is likely to be a really good guitar that will only get better with time. The banner has emotional appeal, but is compromised in collector value and may not be as good as a musical instrument.

You're the only one who can weigh all these things.

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20 minutes ago, j45nick said:

Things like fret and board wear, neck angle, neck twist, bridge and bridgeplate condition, etc,  have to be considered.

 

For my education - Is neck twist something that can be repaired, or is it something to look out for and avoid?

Thanks and Rgds - b.

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29 minutes ago, billroy said:

For my education - Is neck twist something that can be repaired, or is it something to look out for and avoid?

Thanks and Rgds - b.

Neck twist can in some cases be mitigated by a talented luthier, but I would simply avoid a guitar with an obvious twist or other distortion in the neck. Small humps can often be planed out. Twists are more complicated.

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If you are unwashed when it comes to old guitars it is best to buy from somebody you can trust or bring somebody along who can identify any sort of existing or potential condition issues.    I have only played a couple of J45 Legends and was impressed.  You might also consider hunting down one of the 2013 runs of Banners which were copied from guitars JT rounded up for Gibson.  

The thing about Banners is the only thing consistent about them is their inconsistency.   Different hands, possibly using different tools,  putting the things together at a time when a part  considered finished when it looked "close enough."   I do own a 1942 J50.  What sets this guitar apart is its low end which the guy who repaired it for me (who is a second generation luthier) described as being deep  enough to send a pre-War Martin D28 running for cover.   Not very Gibson-esque but it works well for me and I have yet to play any other Gibson J45/50/SJ that has that sound.  That does not mean, however, it would work as well for you.

To me though the thing about a Banner Gibsons which sets them apart from all  others is that no other guitar out there speaks as eloquently to a specific place and time then they do.  

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IMHO, I'd skip on the vintage J45.  A ton of cracks plus more repairs, plus more work vs a replica, that's brand new with zero issues...

The new J45 will original to YOU, and you'll be able to grow old with it and it'll tell your own story as you start your journey with her!

Keep us posted friend!

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I think this thread is a very interesting read for anyone trying to price a vintage guitar. I found the posts by John Arnold (builder and restoration expert) to be particularly informative, although I realize there are no fixed numbers when it comes to these types of things.

https://umgf.com/what-percentage-do-certain-repairs-drop-a-vintage--t195363.html

Lars

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Well, just to follow up on this, i ended up buying the Legend and am very happy with it. Check it out in my NGD post.

As far as the Banner.......man......that thing is awesome. .....i almost bought it. In the end my rational kicked in and the reasons i had for not buying it still existed. No (real) case, it'll need new frets soon, overpriced, what other issues lurk in there?, etc.

But if someone is looking fro that sound....geez, it's there in spades and sounds/plays great!!!!!

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