Health Care; a Right or Privileged?

[Homz]

Health Care; a Right or Privileged?

 

Preamble

“ We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ”

[Rosewoody]

You would think that every civilized person would recognize that all people should have access to health care, at some level. The trouble is, what level and how much access? There is a limited amount of health care services available. The question is how to distribute that amount. It wasn't such a problem when health care (treatments) were simpler and less costly. A doctor visit was expensive, but not crushing. Even a stay in the hospital was not devastating unless prolonged. Now, with vast overheads of expensive equipment and bureaucratic salaries, and with the enormous costs of pharmaceuticals, health care is very expensive, as the costs are spread over the population.

 

The most conservative notion is ration by dollars--if you have the money, you can get the best care in the world. The extreme alternative is to let government serve as third party allocator. Actually, I guess the extreme is to allow sick people to go untreated.

 

The solution should probably lie somewhere in the middle: insure everyone while allowing the Donalds of the world to get hair transplants on their own nickel.

 

As usual in these things, the devil is in the details.

[Homz]

So as it relates to the Preamble? Or the Constitution?

[Rosewoody]

The Constitution is so general and vague, on purpose, that "promote the common welfare" means whatever we want it to mean. And the eternal question returns, "How to promote the general welfare?"

 

I think what gets most lost is the notion of "general welfare." Too many people are me-my-mine. It's the Reagan years, Part Deaux.

[Homz]

Of coarse it isn't the only important document.

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

From the Declaration of Independence, it has no legal standing, but yet carries much weight in the minds of legal scholars. It too could be interrupted to have a heath care component.

[Californiaman]

Oh sure, it can be interpreted like that.

It can also mean that pursuant to the "pursuit of happiness" the government owes me a job, transportation to get there, health care, and a brand new Les Paul of my choice because I'm entitled to it.

[kmartem]

Californiaman, I like the Les Paul idea alot.The amp of your choice too??

[Californiaman]

Oh of course a Marshall Silver Jubilee would be fine thank you.

[MikeRom]

It all sounds great, until the government gets involved. Thats when things start going very, very wrong. So as much as I like the idea of affodable health care for all, I hate the idea of it beign administered by the goverenment.

[Hoyt]

It all sounds great' date=' until the government gets involved. Thats when things start going very, very wrong. So as much as I like the idea of affodable health care for all, I hate the idea of it beign administered by the goverenment.

[/quote']

 

Better than being administered by greedy execs out to "earn" their bonuses and please stockholders through denying benefits, squeezing providers, etc. I'd rather elected officials be responsible, so we can vote them out if necessary and hold them accountable. I think capitalism works for some things, but not others.

[Californiaman]

Once you create a bureaucracy for health care there's no turning back. Quality of and timeliness for treatment will suffer.

Just look at Canada.

[RudyH]

I've got too much gray hair to be in favor of a system that discriminates against seniors. What we have is flawed, but at least I don't have to worry about being denied service. That's just the way it works.

[Homz]

I've got another tru-life story.

 

My coworker's granddaughter had life saving surgery three months ago to remove a brain tumor. Even though the family had an insurance plan the total bills have gone over $1,000,000 (million). They are now in collections and are being forced into bankruptcy.

 

My coworker's is a crotchety ole right winger with a bad disposition. He hates all things that might make the liberals happy. However, since this situation and the fact that he is giving his granddaughter's family $1000/month just to keep their heads above water he now is a proponent for Universal Free Health care.

 

Just relaying the story.

[Californiaman]

Yes, if we don't do something about the skyrocketing cost of health care, our country's prosperity is indeed at stake.

[MikeRom]

 

Better than being administered by greedy execs out to "earn" their bonuses and please stockholders through denying benefits' date=' squeezing providers, etc. I'd rather elected officials be responsible, so we can vote them out if necessary and hold them accountable. I think capitalism works for some things, but not others.[/quote']

 

 

Better? Unlikely. It will be run by un-elected bueracrats. Hardly a step up. Not that I spport the greedy exceutive types. But I don't want it to be made worse, which is my biggest fear when considering handing it over to the gov'ment. They can maybe make it great for today but tomorrow, it can all change at their political whime. I give you the income tax as exhibit A.

[grampa]

It's inconcievable to me that a country such as ours cannot provide for the health of its citizens. I can understand the concerns of having the "govrnment" being involved in health care but as it is now, we have insurance companies making health care decisions which often are made with financial considerations and not health considerations. It may be expensive but we cannot afford to to neglect the health of Americans

[Hoyt]

I've got another tru-life story.

 

My coworker's granddaughter had life saving surgery three months ago to remove a brain tumor. Even though the family had an insurance plan the total bills have gone over $1' date='000,000 (million). They are now in collections and are being forced into bankruptcy.

 

My coworker's is a crotchety ole right winger with a bad disposition. He hates all things that might make the liberals happy. However, since this situation and the fact that he is giving his granddaughter's family $1000/month just to keep their heads above water he now is a proponent for Universal Free Health care.

 

Just relaying the story.

[/quote']

 

 

Many years ago, I worked for a state Medicaid agency. The right wingers whined the loudest when their -- or a family member's -- illness forced them to the brink of bankruptcy before qualifying for Medicaid and other assistance. You could spot them walking in the door. They acted like they were better than anyone else there and their case was different. I felt sorry for them and did what I could, but the fact is their ideology got them in that position.

 

We are a society, we depend upon each other -- time we started acting like it.

 

As to those who say the Canadian system is flawed -- I don't see many giving up their coverage.

[NeoConMan]

I've got another tru-life story.

Oh boy' date=' here we go....

That's code for "look at all the poor, innocent little victims" and "I want you to use YOUR money to help them!"

 

 

 

My coworker's granddaughter had life saving surgery three months ago to remove a brain tumor. Even though the family had an insurance plan the total bills have gone over $1' date='000,000 (million). They are now in collections and are being forced into bankruptcy. [/quote']

Unfortunate reality.

 

 

 

My coworker's is a crotchety ole right winger with a bad disposition.

How could you say such a thing? Boy' date=' aren't you just one giant f-ing ray of sunshine?

:-)

 

 

 

He hates all things that might make the liberals happy.

Because Liberals aren't happy until everybody is equally miserable. I'm with him on this one.

 

 

 

However' date=' since this situation and the fact that he is giving his granddaughter's family $1000/month just to keep their heads above water he now is a proponent for Universal Free Health care. [/quote']

In other words, he's another pudding-brained chowder-head who never had any core convictions.

Idealogically promiscuous, whatever's going on right now drives his beliefs.

Maybe Right-Winger, hardly conservative.

 

 

 

Just relaying the story.

And what a heart-warming example of how people can't see the wood for the trees.

He's facing financial difficulties for some reason beyond his control, now he wants my life destroyed too.

How can I fully express my sentiment toward EVERYBODY with that mindset without profanity....?

 

Oh, and pissing all over the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence and the flag will get people like me up your *** and in your face at the drop of a hat - of course you knew that when you hatched your little thread...

[MikeRom]

Boy I just dont see how that's going to change. Instead of insurance Co's making the decisions we'll have un-thinking un-caring gov'ment workers running the show. And probably run it just like they do the VA. Just ask our Canadian brothers how great the government supplied health care is. Most working Canadians pay extra for supplimental health insurance.

[Hoyt]

 

 

Better? Unlikely. It will be run by un-elected bueracrats. Hardly a step up. Not that I spport the greedy exceutive types. But I don't want it to be made worse' date=' which is my biggest fear when considering handing it over to the gov'ment. They can maybe make it great for today but tomorrow, it can all change at their political whime. I give you the income tax as exhibit A.

[/quote']

 

Don't know about you, but I'm satisfied with the US Postal Service, the fire department, the police department, the water system, etc. Are there problems -- sure. But those work pretty well, as does the Medicare system.

 

As to the income taxes, we've had some of the lowest rates in the world in recent years. Arguably, those low rates are one reason we are where we are right now.

[Homz]

Neo, is it that your not used to people questioning your beliefs or are you really a moron? Just wondering.

 

Personally I think your just full of crap, but I hardly need to prove that. Your posts do it without me saying a thing.

[NeoConMan]

Many years ago' date=' I worked for a state Medicaid agency.[/quote']

Government job, eh?

Yeah, I can spot THEM as soon as I walk in the door.

 

 

 

The right wingers whined the loudest when their -- or a family member's -- illness forced them to the brink of bankruptcy before qualifying for Medicaid and other assistance.

Because they worked for and earned what they had.

Funny how they could resent the idea of losing it under any circumstances....

 

 

 

You could spot them walking in the door.

Wonder if you would identify ME with such stereotypical ease?

 

 

 

They acted like they were better than anyone else there and their case was different.

I am. Get over it.

 

And every case is unique. If it's the first time in your life such a challenge has faced you' date=' adjustment takes time.

You old Socialist pros and advocates of Universal Misery can teach ALL ABOUT the way your Utopia would be.

 

 

 

I felt sorry for them and did what I could' date=' but the fact is their ideology got them in that position.[/quote']

Really....

Explain THAT one to me.

If you don't think you can pull it off in the open forum (like Homz) then please PM me.

 

 

 

We are a society' date=' we depend upon each other -- time we started acting like it.[/quote']

No sh!t Sherlock!

Society and Socialism are NOT the one and same.

"I am my brother's keeper" is a Biblical reference you eagerly cast off, you simply wanna be your brother's wallet keeper.

Big difference, and I will fight you to my dying breath.

 

 

 

As to those who say the Canadian system is flawed -- I don't see many giving up their coverage.

My inlaws have a ranch in Canada, and spend most of their time in Arizona because they're 70 years old and don't want to be stuck up there if they fall ill. They've been inside BOTH systems all their lives.

[MikeRom]

 

Don't know about you' date=' but I'm satisfied with the US Postal Service, the fire department, the police department, the water system, etc. Are there problems -- sure. But those work pretty well, as does the Medicare system.

 

As to the income taxes, we've had some of the lowest rates in the world in recent years. Arguably, those low rates are one reason we are where we are right now. [/quote']

 

Of all those things you'vs mentioned, USPS, fire, police & water, only one is a US government run entity. And for the sake of this discussion when I say 'government' I mean the US gov'ment, not sate and local concerns. I thought that was implied. Medicare is going broke and from what I read horribly run and conveluted. Income tax, while comparitivley low, because we're not a socialist country (yet) were we all gotta pay for everyone else, started out as a promise of a short term fix. I'm not debating tax rates, just pointing out a prime example of the gov's penchant for bait and switch.

[NeoConMan]

Neo' date=' is it that your not used to people questioning your beliefs or are you really a moron? Just wondering.

 

Personally I think your just full of crap, but I hardly need to prove that. Your posts do it without me saying a thing. [/quote']

 

I post facts, you post bullsh!t.

I post my core beliefs, you post insults.

I post the truth, you post Alice In Wonderland baloney.

I ask questions, you give Bill Clinton answers like "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is...."

You start trouble, I finish it.

 

You must have had a horrible existence in high school - never able to express you opinions without getting picked on, chosen last for every team, girls laughing at your advances and attempts at humor....

 

 

In a couple of weeks, you have not responded to me ONCE with a fact or even a defense of your views.

Smartass is all you know.

 

You're proving plenty.

Your attempts to impress are the source of great amusement for me, and many others who PM'd me upon my return.

You were a Rock Star before I ever read one of your posts.

 

"Oh, yeah....

That Homz guy is something else..."

 

You should be so proud.

:-)

[Homz]

 

I post facts' date=' you post bullsh!t.

I post my core beliefs, you post insults.

I post the truth, you post Alice In Wonderland baloney.

I ask questions, you give Bill Clinton answers like "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is...."

You start trouble, I finish it.

 

You must have had a horrible existence in high school - never able to express you opinions without getting picked on, chosen last for every team, girls laughing at your advances and attempts at humor....

 

 

In a couple of weeks, you have not responded to me ONCE with a fact or even a defense of your views.

Smartass is all you know.

 

You're proving plenty.

Your attempts to impress are the source of great amusement for me, and many others who PM'd me upon my return.

You were a Rock Star before I ever read one of your posts.

 

"Oh, yeah....

Homz, that guy is something else..."

 

You should be so proud.

:-)[/quote']

 

So which one of your many rants was there a fact in?

 

You came to this forum intent on a crusade for people who wont stand for their own opinions. You never tried to find out if what they said was true. You just started a fight. Hey dude I'm not your bitc*, boy, or any other form of toady like those that expect you to fight for them. Personally I think your a chump for falling for it. So if you want to do the bidding of your little girls then go for it. I'm here and I ain't backing down from some over grown boy scout with delusions of grandeur.