Thundergod Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 That's a pretty long stick you're using for stirring the pot. I know... but I am a little bored (the lady is out of town... went to her parent's place for the weekend... which means lots of beer, mcdonald's and lots of pizza). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I support it - the potential gain, outway's the cost here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Sorry for the delay, I was spreading cheer in another thread...I am a salesman, I own my own High Tech Sales and Consulting business. By education and training, I am a computer scientist. Any information that you seek is available with some curiosity and basic reading skills...I already know what is being said about stem cells and the argument for embryonic stem cell research, Can you show me ANY successful research using embryonic cells? You can easily find success on adult and chord blood cells. What do you do for a living Bluemoon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Be nice. Remember. I know. KSG bothers me because he is simply foot solider for the far right. No real thoughts of his own. Just tows the company line. Smart people don't see the world as black and white. KSG does. His answers are predictable and his intolerance for other's views amaze me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Sorry for the delay' date=' I was spreading cheer in another thread...I am a salesman, I own my own High Tech Sales and Consulting business. By education and training, I am a computer scientist. Any information that you seek is available with some curiosity and basic reading skills...I already know what is being said about stem cells and the argument for embryonic stem cell research, Can you show me ANY successful research using embryonic cells? You can easily find success on adult and chord blood cells. What do you do for a living Bluemoon?[/quote'] Give me an hour and I will dig up some research for you. I am journalist. Work for a magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Allen Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I have an incurable' date=' chronic disease that might be cured by stem cell research, and I would never trade another life to improve my own.[/quote'] This is the difference between a man who has faith that his life on Earth is meant for preparing for an afterlife versus someone who feels there is no afterlife. My prayers are with you, KSG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 I know. KSG bothers me because he is simply foot solider for the far right. No real thoughts of his own. Just tows the company line. Smart people don't see the world as black and white. KSG does. His answers are predictable and his intolerance for other's views amaze me. That sounds familiar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 This is the difference between a man who has faith that his life on Earth is meant for preparing for an afterlife versus someone who feels there is no afterlife. My prayers are with you' date=' KSG. [/quote'] I'm not holding my tongue on that one. You want to know the difference. The difference is how much time you spend planning the departure. That's it. Nothing else. Nothing. I'm thinking it's getting a bit stuffy in here. No human being is better or worse then any other human being based on their religious affiliations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I know. KSG bothers me because he is simply foot solider for the far right. No real thoughts of his own. Just tows the company line. Smart people don't see the world as black and white. KSG does. His answers are predictable and his intolerance for other's views amaze me. Moonie, that saddens me...A liberal that sees everything in gray tones thinks that I lack tolerance...I've read all of your posts regarding God and Religion and it seems to me that you have far less tolerance than I do. I tolerate everyone and I beleive that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and views...I don't agree with everyone, and I'm willing to say so. I do my own research and make up my own mind about what to beleive. Unlike you, I have never worked for a politician, political campaign or party...It would seem to be that you'd have to be somewhat of an idealogue to work for a campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 From 2004 Using embryonic stem cells, Mayo Clinic researchers transformed these master cell types into fully functional cardiac cells and transplanted them into damaged regions of the myocardium, where the cells integrated into the infarct and showed rapid and robust improvements, which were stable over an extended period post-therapy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Allen Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I support it - the potential gain' date=' outway's the cost here...[/quote'] Just curious-let's say that somewhere down this slippery slope we're on in America, you have an illness, and that illness MIGHT be cured but it means taking the life of an innocent person, in this case, a child. Do the potential gains of saving your own life outway the costs of possibly taking someone elses? If so, let's extrapolate where it is conceiveable that this could go: Let's say that you have a baby, and that baby has a certain gene that MIGHT cure brain cancer. But harvesting that gene kills the baby. FOR THE GREATER GOOD (which is what all this socialism vs capitalism stuff eventually leads to) some politician and some scientific ethicist decides that the life of your baby is worth the POSSIBILITY of saving a bigger number of lives. For Conservatives, this is exactly the argument we are trying to make when it comes to embryonic stem cells. Once you say it is okay to harvest the cells from aborted babies, say, then where can the lines be REdrawn? It is conceivable that a governmental power decides that it's okay to take that gene from the baby. It is absolutely conceivable that this scenario could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Moonie' date=' that saddens me...A liberal that sees everything in gray tones thinks that I lack tolerance...I've read all of your posts regarding God and Religion and it seems to me that you have far less tolerance than I do. I tolerate everyone and I beleive that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and views...I don't agree with everyone, and I'm willing to say so. I do my own research and make up my own mind about what to beleive. Unlike you, I have never worked for a politician, political campaign or party...It would seem to be that you'd have to be somewhat of an idealogue to work for a campaign. [/quote'] I like gray I blame my political days on youthful exuberance. I am way too jaded now to work on a campaign. Religion--don't have one, but have a lot of love for those who do--whether they are jews, chrisitans, muslims, hindus...just not a big fan of people who try to shove religion down other people's throats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Just curious-let's say that somewhere down this slippery slope we're on in America' date=' you have an illness, and that illness MIGHT be cured but it means taking the life of an innocent person, in this case, a child. Do the potential gains of saving your own life outway the costs of possibly taking someone elses? If so, let's extrapolate where it is conceiveable that this could go: Let's say that you have a baby, and that baby has a certain gene that MIGHT cure brain cancer. But harvesting that gene kills the baby. FOR THE GREATER GOOD (which is what all this socialism vs capitalism stuff eventually leads to) some politician and some scientific ethicist decides that the life of your baby is worth the POSSIBILITY of saving a bigger number of lives. For Conservatives, this is exactly the argument we are trying to make when it comes to embryonic stem cells. Once you say it is okay to harvest the cells from aborted babies, say, then where can the lines be REdrawn? It is conceivable that a governmental power decides that it's okay to take that gene from the baby. It is absolutely conceivable that this scenario could happen.[/quote'] The only examples of those kinds of transgressions I can think of off the top of my head is from Nazi Germany. I will remind you that that was a form of extremism known as fascism. Fascism is not even on the same side of the political spectrum as that of the direction of the current U.S. government. My point isn't that it can't happen it is that given government regulations and oversights it would be unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 For Conservatives' date=' this is exactly the argument we are trying to make when it comes to embryonic stem cells. Once you say it is okay to harvest the cells from aborted babies, say, then where can the lines be REdrawn? It is conceivable that a governmental power decides that it's okay to take that gene from the baby. It is absolutely conceivable that this scenario could happen.[/quote'] Scientists isolate stem cells from surplus eggs blastocysts that have been fertilized in vitro that result from in vitro fertilization of eggs in fertility clinics. They are specifically donated for research purposes with the informed consent of the donors. As it is estimated that up to 400,000 surplus eggs are currently stored in freezers in the United States, these donations have negligible impact on the number of stored surplus eggs. Thus the stem cells are derived from in vitro technology that generates blastocysts that are in excess of clinical need and would otherwise be discarded or remain unused. They are not obtained from pregnant women and thus do NOT promote abortions. Finally, unused blastocysts cannot develop into a fetus without implantation into a uterus, which the donors do not wish to pursue, so stem cell research does not reduce the number of babies born through in vitro fertilization. On the technical side, scientists place the inner mass of the blastocyst into a culture dish with nutrient feeder cells. The cells of the inner mass proliferate and after a period of several days, researchers transfer these cells to fresh culture dishes. After a period of at least six months, cells that have proliferated without differentiating are usable as embryonic stem cell “lines.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 From 2004 Using embryonic stem cells' date=' Mayo Clinic researchers transformed these master cell types into fully functional cardiac cells and transplanted them into damaged regions of the myocardium, where the cells integrated into the infarct and showed rapid and robust improvements, which were stable over an extended period post-therapy. [/quote'] Was this experiment on a human? From the 100 stories about stem cells on CNN, I can't find any "embryonic" stem cell research approved on Humans, only tests done in labs and on animals...According to the latest CNN article, the FDA has just approved the very first tests on Humans. There have, already been successful treatments using chord blood and adult stem cells... http://topics.cnn.com/topics/stem_cell_research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Allen Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I'm not holding my tongue on that one. You want to know the difference. The difference is how much time you spend planning the departure. That's it. Nothing else. Nothing. I'm thinking it's getting a bit stuffy in here. No human being is better or worse then any other human being based on their religious affiliations. You're missing the point, Homz. I know a few dozen folks who are crazy lefties. That's how they describe themselves. And a couple of them are decent enough, but their whole philosophy is one of "it's all about me." They do no charitable works and mock people who do. I have seem them berate people of faith. I have seen them partake in actions that are just socially wrong, let alone using the term "morally wrong." And they dare anyone to think differently than they do. They are constantly worried about someone of faith forcing a faithful lifestyle on them, but are willing to militantly force their lifestyle on others. My point about KSG's statement is that for a great many of us who believe that there is a higher purpose to our lives, we act accordingly. We don't want to take any action that may ultimately be seen as morally wrong. It's our choice. And we're condemned for it. You always worry that people of faith think they are better than you, but a true person of faith, who tries to live accordingly, will NEVER think they are better than you. They just choose to live my a different moral code. One that does not include supporting certain actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Embryonic Stem Cell research destroys the embryo. Look it up... If you believe that human life starts at conception, like I do, then you can't support the killing of a human being for medical research. The human embryo will not grow into a chicken or a puppy or a snake, only a human comes from a human embryo. What I can't understand is the liberal idea that we must protect homosexuals and make sure that their "right" to marriage is protected and that nobody is mean to them, We must protect convicted criminals and their right to life, the "right" of every human to have free healthcare, The right of the "worker" to get high wages and golden benefits, etc. But no liberal wants to protect the most innocent and helpless among us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Just curious-let's say that somewhere down this slippery slope we're on in America' date=' you have an illness, and that illness MIGHT be cured but it means taking the life of an innocent person, in this case, a child. Do the potential gains of saving your own life outway the costs of possibly taking someone elses? If so, let's extrapolate where it is conceiveable that this could go: Let's say that you have a baby, and that baby has a certain gene that MIGHT cure brain cancer. But harvesting that gene kills the baby. FOR THE GREATER GOOD (which is what all this socialism vs capitalism stuff eventually leads to) some politician and some scientific ethicist decides that the life of your baby is worth the POSSIBILITY of saving a bigger number of lives. For Conservatives, this is exactly the argument we are trying to make when it comes to embryonic stem cells. Once you say it is okay to harvest the cells from aborted babies, say, then where can the lines be REdrawn? It is conceivable that a governmental power decides that it's okay to take that gene from the baby. It is absolutely conceivable that this scenario could happen.[/quote'] I understand your point and even concur to a point I know we need to draw the line and I'm against tackling someone and cutting out a kidney just because I need one and can pay for it - that said using stem cells is just a tad less invasive than that and it can save hundreds or thousands of lives - The stem cell research question is different in my mind than the abortion question. We all like to think that a human life is truly beyond value but if that was true where do insurance actuarial tables come from if after Im gone my body could save others than hell yeah use it I'm done with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Embryonic Stem Cell research destroys the embryo. Look it up... If you believe that human life starts at conception' date=' like I do, then you can't support the killing of a human being for medical research. The human embryo will not grow into a chicken or a puppy or a snake, only a human comes from a human embryo. What I can't understand is the liberal idea that we must protect homosexuals and make sure that their "right" to marriage is protected and that nobody is mean to them, We must protect convicted criminals and their right to life, the "right" of every human to have free healthcare, The right of the "worker" to get high wages and golden benefits, etc. But no liberal wants to protect the most innocent and helpless among us.[/quote'] My post was in response to the misinformed "abortion" comment. These are embroyos that are sitting around in freezers. They ain't going anywhere. They are destroyed when they are no longer needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Embryonic Stem Cell research destroys the embryo. Look it up... If you believe that human life starts at conception' date=' like I do, then you can't support the killing of a human being for medical research. The human embryo will not grow into a chicken or a puppy or a snake, only a human comes from a human embryo. What I can't understand is the liberal idea that we must protect homosexuals and make sure that their "right" to marriage is protected and that nobody is mean to them, We must protect convicted criminals and their right to life, the "right" of every human to have free healthcare, The right of the "worker" to get high wages and golden benefits, etc. But no liberal wants to protect the most innocent and helpless among us.[/quote'] Liberals are just the ones who are taking them home when no one else wants them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Allen Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 The only examples of those kinds of transgressions I can think of off the top of my head is from Nazi Germany. I will remind you that that was a form of extremism known as fascism. Fascism is not even on the same side of the political spectrum as that of the direction of the current U.S. government. My point isn't that it can't happen it is that given government regulations and oversights it would be unlikely. Hmm. I disagree. Already there are people who argue that a person who has certain sickness can be put to death by the state, overriding the will of the family. Already we have laws in certain states that makes it legal for a physician or scientist to sell a person's (patient's) genetic code, therefore rendering a person not the owner of his own body. Look it up, it's true. We have scientists who say that science should not live in the realm of the moral. I've read this statement by several prominent scientitsts over the years. Add those together, you have a dangerous mix. Especially when you consider it is the current US government which has allowed these laws to be enacted. So, when I am not the "owner" of my genetic code, the person who has bought it can claim it at any time. That seems like fascism to me. I'll give you another example that hopefully everyone has heard of. Remember a couple of years ago when the Supreme Court of the US decided that it is okay for a private citizen's home and property to be siezed from them and given to PRIVATE developers. It is now legal, by sanction of a branch of this government, to have your property taken and given to another private citizen. SOunds like fascism to me. YOu have a current administration who feels it is necessary to take a bigger portion of your pay to give to the "greater good." That means that the US government is about to sanction fascism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Allen Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 My post was in response to the misinformed "abortion" comment. These are embroyos that are sitting around in freezers. They ain't going anywhere. They are destroyed when they are no longer needed. Where do you think these embryos came from, Bluemoon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 You guys are really eaten up with this superiority thing. I pretend to be from time to time, but only to either make a good argument or make a joke. You seem to think on every issue there is only one way to the promise land. You will do anything to prove to what ever your deity is that you have done all you can to stop the heathen liberals from killing your babies, and implementing some evil plot to launch America into communism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 It's becoming phobic in its level. If you want to make a little mutual admiration society then I doubt your going to have much luck. Not here at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc3c46 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Now, there we have it: He who supports stem cell research to be funded is a baby killer, a Nazi and dangerous to society. Embryos which come from abortions are not to be touched and frozen eggs are to be kept forever and not to be touched either. And if advanced stem cell research can hopefully help a lot of very sick people: too f*&%ing bad. We just will not do it.Period. Sh*t out of luck. Get real. There are thousands of suffering folks who are full of hope for serious advancement in this medical field. I am one. Walk a mile in my shoes and feed, change diapers and wheel around in a wheelchair an 11 year old boy who can't go to a hockey game with you, can't enjoy with you what other 11 year old enjoy with their dad, etc. Perhaps you'll talk different. P.S. Einstein's birthday is coming up on March 14. I do remember he did say something about " mediocre minds" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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