Recommendations for replacement tuners for my Masterbilt Zenith Archtop?

[Mike H]

Love the guitar, but as has been reported by pretty much anybody who owns one, the tuners leave something to be desired.  Great looks, and 18:1 is a nice ratio.  But they're sloppy as all get up!  It takes a quarter turn to get a perceptible increase in pitch, then, if you overshoot it by just a bit, it takes maybe a half turn in the opposite direction to even begin to correct it.  I guess I kind of got used to it, but I pulled out my DR-212 12 string the other day (about 1/5 the price of the Zenith) and the tuners were instantly responsive.  It was almost a joy to tune! (yeah, I know, that sounds weird).

A few posts I've read suggested tightening the screws securing the buttons.  They were pretty slack, so I tightened them a full 2 turns(!!!), after which they were impossible to turn, so I backed off a full turn.  They work much better, but nowhere near as well as they should, IMO (the quarter turn I mentioned above is after I tightened the screws).  This suggests that maybe the buttons are at fault and simply replacing the buttons will fix the problem.  Which begs the question how 'standard' are tuner buttons?

That said, I'm prepared to replace the tuners with something else.  Ideally, I'm looking for drop in replacements - no holes to drill or ream.  There are lots of visually appealing "vintage" tuners out there, with old looking, yellowed plastic buttons and aged nickel, though I'd miss the stylized Epiphone "E" on the back of the originals. 

I was hoping maybe somebody has already been through this exercise and could offer some recommendations or advice.  FWIW, emails to Epiphone's customer Service have gone unanswered (surprise!)

[QuestionMark]

I have a Masterbuilt Olympic.  The tuners are a quite good time piece version of the originals.   Periodically, I need to tighten the screw on their backs, but it’s no biggie to do for me and it’s not very often.  I find the tuners on mine to be just fine and I wouldn’t think of changing them on my Olympic.  I am wondering though what gauge strings you are using on your Zenith that tuning is an issue.  I use Mediums (13s)  acoustic strings (with a wound 3rd string) or Medium-Lights (12.5) if I can find them (also acoustic strings with a wound 3rd string).  I have no tuning issues with mine with the relatively heavier strings.  I haven’t tried acoustic Lights (12s), but I would think they’d be okay, too    If you are using any strings less than 12s, though, such as Extra Lights (11s or 10s) I would think keeping it in tune might be an issue.   Keep in mind that the  archtops were made to be acoustically loud and and the archtop Masterbuilt series’ thicker necks certainly can handle higher guage strings such as Mediums or Medium Lights.  And, since they are primarily acoustic guitars that are mic’d with their built in pickup, acoustic strings (with a wound 3rd string) rather than light gauge electric strings should be used.  I hope this potentially helps.

What gauge strings do you have on the guitar?

 

QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff

 

[EndTimesAzrael]

I'm asking the same question.  I have a Epiphone Masterbilt Deluxe Archtop, and I am looking into changing the tuners on it.  I love the guitar but despise the tuners; I understand that they are supposed to be like the originals, but I love this guitar and don't care about what the original model was like.  I have learned how to use and live with the things, but one started rattling recently, and I just thought, "man I might as well go ahead and get some cool tuners to replace these plastic things that are difficult to work with like I wanted to when I first got the guitar.  If I get them replaced I will do it at Guitar Center, because that is where I bought it and I know the tech there.  I intended to go there anyway, because the tailpiece seems to be making a bit of noise that I feel could be reduced.

I am using .012 GHS White Bronze strings.

[Mike H]

On 8/2/2019 at 10:31 PM, QuestionMark said:

Periodically, I need to tighten the screw on their backs, but it’s no biggie to do for me and it’s not very often. 

I'm not sure exactly what you're describing, but it sounds like something you shouldn't need to do ...ever! This is the first guitar I've owned (and I've owned some real crap over the past 50+ years) that required any kind of adjustment on the tuners unless they were soon to be replaced.

On 8/2/2019 at 10:31 PM, QuestionMark said:

What gauge strings do you have on the guitar?

I recently installed a set of Cleartone 12-53, the same strings that are supposedly installed at the factory and the same strings that were used when it was Plek'd.  I plan to replace those with Elixir Nanoweb Light soon, which are the same gauge as the Cleartones (Cleartone just doesn't have the same Wow! factor as the Elixirs, IMO).

Maybe I wasn't clear.  Tuning stability is not the issue.  Unless I bring it outside and the temperature and/or humidity is drastically different, it's rock solid.  The problem is on those occasions when I have to tweak it, even just a smidge.  Or when I change strings.  It's very difficult to tune due to the slop.

[QuestionMark]

4 hours ago, Mike H said:

I'm not sure exactly what you're describing, but it sounds like something you shouldn't need to do ...ever! 

 

It’s the only guitar I have to do this on, too  (of the 39 instruments  I own in my collection).  However, that is because the Epiphone’s Masterbuilt Archtop Century line,  which includes the Deluxe, Zenith, and Olympic, uses historically accurate replica tuners like the ones originally on the acoustic Deluxe, Zenith, and Olympic archtop  from the 1930s.  They are actually really good tuners, they just function slightly different than modern day tuners in that on periodic occasion the screw on the bottom of the tuning peg needs a slight tightening turn to keep them from having a bit of slack to them.   Keep in mind the historic acoustic  archtop guitar series was issued after much demand for many years for Epiphone to get back to its original roots, before it was acquired by Gibson in the 50s, back when they were an independent American guitar manufacturer who was a friendly rival to the Gibson Company, when Epiphone was known for its acoustic archtops.  (In my collection I own an actual 1936 Epiphone Masterbilt (originally spelled w/out the u in it) Zenith besides my recent Olympic Masterbuilt reissue.  However, my 1936 Zenith has replacement tuners on it from before I acquired it...wish it still had the originals on it.)

My suggestion is if you do decide to change the historic replica tuners to be sure to safely keep the removed historic replica tuners in case a potential future buyer wants to again put on the historic replica tuners to aesthetically restore it.  (As it is not exactly likely that the new owners of Gibson/Epiphone will again reissue the 1930s Deluxe, Zenith, or Olympic as it took the past owners of Gibson about 50 years to pay homage to the original N.Y. Epiphone Company by reissuing their acoustic archtop guitars.  But, one never knows...)

 

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by QuestionMark

[Saransk]

I don't buy the idea that "historically accurate" tuners can't work as well as new designs.  It is all about the design, materials, and price point.  New "vintage" Kluson, Grover, and Schaller all look like vintage but work a whole lot better than a set of 1960 parts.  Although no other manufacturer appears to be making a replacement for the original Kolb/Grover sets, I think Grover Imperials sure look like the vintage Eiphone tuners - just without the E.  A set of those, with a replacement knob, might mount right into the existing mounting holes - the current Grovers are based on the 1970's version with a "clipped" baseplate but the holes look like they are in the same place - there are a couple of on-line videos about replacing vintage with modern.

Another replacement, Hipshot makes several that work with their Universal Mount Plate which lets you install their tuners without drilling new mounting holes.  And they have a lot of knobs so you can have everything from a Grover Imperial style to an Pearl "Butterbean."  You can get "Griplock" or "Classic" tuners.

I put a set on a friend's Telecaster, the plate worked great replacing the original "Double Pin" tuners with a nice set of Closed -Staggered Griplocks.  Not 100% vintage looking, but great for a working musician.  And the originals will go right back on if he sells it.

So much about my Zenith is great - the sound is wonderful, and it plays fantastic but little things like the tuners and the electronics just don't match the rest of the workmanship.

Good luck

Mike

 

[Mooseman]

Changed mine out yesterday , Grover 502’s gold they are worlds apart from the original epiphone machine heads 

[Murph in Berkel]

I reluctantly looked into changing the tuners on my Masterbilt Zenith but found that the Epiphone tuners aren't just nice looking, they're also quite large compared to other tuners. I checked them against some tuners I had on hand as well as specs from tuners made by the better manufacturers. Most tuners won't do well on this guitar.

So I took the strings off in order to check the tuners out when they aren't under tension from the strings. I discovered that while I had thought I'd had them properly adjusted, some were actually quite loose. I adjusted the tension without strings, trying to get them to where there's a bit of drag but not a lot. If anybody else has been trying to adjust the tensioners with the strings on the instrument, I suggest doing it without strings. It really seems like the only way to get them close to a proper, consistent tension.

When I restrung the guitar, I also changed the way I wrap the strings. I've been playing guitar (not particularly well — ars longa) for sixty years and always felt uncomfortable with having a lot of chaotic wrappings around the posts., but I'd never done anything about it before. So I found and followed this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7O6gQDroog

With the tuners well adjusted and the strings neatly wrapped, I've been much happier with the tuners. I've had a bias for Klusons since I had a beautiful Gibson Les Paul Junior with them a million years ago. I've long since let that guitar go to a friend who actually had some talent, but now I have new Klusons on my other Epiphone acoustic as well as original Klusons on my old Epiphone Olympic solid body, and I'd say the Epiphone tuners are now working comparably to the new Klusons and better than the older ones. I'm sure there are better tuners on the market, but these are pretty good. While I've had the Zenith for around three years, making these changes has restored that new guitar feel when you just can't keep your hands off the instrument.

So my advice is to do your best trying to make sure the Epiphone tuners are set up right before you change them out.

[Murph in Berkel]

Surely the recommendation that folks having trouble with the Epiphone tuners make sure they’re adjusting and wrapping them properly is good advice under any circumstances, but after six months of being extra careful stringing my MBC-Zenith, I had to throw in the towel. For all my care and feeding of the beasts, I just haven’t been satisfied with the Epiphone tuners. So I bought and installed a set of 135-series Grover tuning machines. Of course, I’m still being careful to wrap the posts neatly.

I’ve kept the Epiphone tuners along with documentation of the date of the swap, the reason for doing it and details of what little work was involved. I’m very happy with the Grovers. They’re nicely made, hold fast and are really smooth to use.

Clearly there are fancier tuning machines on the market — notably tuners with tension adjusters and locks. But the tendons in my hands have 140+ years between them, so I’ve been using extra light strings for some time now. Also, I’ve always played with a fairly light touch. Between the two — the light strings and my light touch — I figured that basic but good-quality tuning machines ought to do the job for me, and these are living up to both my hopes and expectations.

 

[QuestionMark]

On 6/4/2021 at 12:40 PM, Murph in Berkel said:

Surely the recommendation that folks having trouble with the Epiphone tuners make sure they’re adjusting and wrapping them properly is good advice under any circumstances, but after six months of being extra careful stringing my MBC-Zenith, I had to throw in the towel. For all my care and feeding of the beasts, I just haven’t been satisfied with the Epiphone tuners. So I bought and installed a set of 135-series Grover tuning machines. Of course, I’m still being careful to wrap the posts neatly.

I’ve kept the Epiphone tuners along with documentation of the date of the swap, the reason for doing it and details of what little work was involved. I’m very happy with the Grovers. They’re nicely made, hold fast and are really smooth to use.

Clearly there are fancier tuning machines on the market — notably tuners with tension adjusters and locks. But the tendons in my hands have 140+ years between them, so I’ve been using extra light strings for some time now. Also, I’ve always played with a fairly light touch. Between the two — the light strings and my light touch — I figured that basic but good-quality tuning machines ought to do the job for me, and these are living up to both my hopes and expectations.

 

Although some years back I was a defender of the stock tuners in my  Epiphone tuners on my reissued Century Olympic, I now see the perspective of replacing them.  Though they look great, that screw on the end does loosen at times and  seems to cause slippage under lengthy playing.  However good they mirror the originals.  As a result I’m buying the mentioned Grover’s 125 series ones in hopes that they will work better.   I appreciate the discussion that occurred on this topic to lead me to see the benefit of changing the stock tuners.  I have a number of gigs I am planning to play with my Olympic due to its great sound and the  newer tuners are now part of my planning for using this otherwise great guitar.   Thanks!

 

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

 

 

 

[QuestionMark]

The Grover 125 Vintage tuning pegs work great!  Much better than the stock ones, yet they look nearly identical except they are missing the controversial screw in the peg.  The post with the accompanying casing attachment and washer fit fine.  No drilling needed.  One attaching screw in back matches to the stock ones, one is just slightly off, but no drilling was needed, just screwing it into the wood and that was easy.  The old hole in back where a fraction of it ever so slightly showed no longer cosmetically shows after filling the partial old holes with a dab of hide glue.  It’s nice to have tuners on the guitar that don’t loosen or turn only in increments.  The new ones turn  nice and smooth and with easy accuracy.

QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff

[Mike H]

On 4/9/2023 at 1:34 PM, QuestionMark said:

The Grover 125 Vintage tuning pegs work great!

Nearly 4 years since I posted the original question.  I've gotten used to the stock tuners, though they still have the problem.  Tuning stability is such that it's not been nearly the issue that it otherwise might have been.  That said, I'd still like to replace them, as it's still more difficult to tune than the other guitars in my stable.

I can't seem to find any info on the Grover 125 tuners.  135 looks right, though it's not offered in vintage nickel, which would be a better cosmetic fit, IMO.  But that's not a show stopper.  Also, unknown is if it would be a drop-in replacement like you say the 125 is.  Is '125' maybe a typo? (fingers crossed that it's a typo🤞)

[QuestionMark]

Yep, it’s a typo.  It should read 135 not 125.  Good catch!  (The forum won’t let me edit my prior posts.)

 

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

[GuitarMan1968]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:05 AM, Mike H said:

Nearly 4 years since I posted the original question.  I've gotten used to the stock tuners, though they still have the problem.  Tuning stability is such that it's not been nearly the issue that it otherwise might have been.  That said, I'd still like to replace them, as it's still more difficult to tune than the other guitars in my stable.

I can't seem to find any info on the Grover 125 tuners.  135 looks right, though it's not offered in vintage nickel, which would be a better cosmetic fit, IMO.  But that's not a show stopper.  Also, unknown is if it would be a drop-in replacement like you say the 125 is.  Is '125' maybe a typo? (fingers crossed that it's a typo🤞)

Following up if you ever changed out for the Grover tuners and if it was a clean drop and replace🎸